Why should sorcs be nerfed?

[Jagil]

Having played shadow and sorc, I think the reason people call for sorc nerfs is purely because sorcs end up near the top of the wz charts often. People feel sorcs kill too easily because they don't realise they are being attacked until too late and are usually being worked by multiple sorcs (popular class). When being attacked by melded there's no ignoring the threat. Sorc damage can be easy to miss at first.

[TheVoidStalker]

Do they have too many tools in pvp?

 

Are they too hard to kill?

 

Do they add too much to a huttball match?

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Have you stopped beating your wife?

[Shilenne]

Having played shadow and sorc, I think the reason people call for sorc nerfs is purely because sorcs end up near the top of the wz charts often. People feel sorcs kill too easily because they don't realise they are being attacked until too late and are usually being worked by multiple sorcs (popular class). When being attacked by melded there's no ignoring the threat. Sorc damage can be easy to miss at first.

 

 

Have you seen Tanks? LOL I GUARD SOMEONE 50k PROTECTION 4 MEDALS FREE VALOR/BADGESZ LOLZZZZZ Not to mention other badges from KB and what not. Sorcs may have high dmg but they die so easily. If your team tunnel visions and ignores the sorc casting aoes at top instead of going up and murdering them in a few split seconds, then I'm sorry they deserve to get dps'ed down. The amount of utility attached to a sorc helps with their survival, or else they'd melt in 2 seconds, everyone would probably play something else in PVP, and so on and so forth.

 

There are so many classes with gap closers that can easily kill a sorc. People just need to learn to use their cooldowns more effectively.

[dcgregorya]

They have too many tools available.

 

Let's just look at their healing spec and compare it with say, an operative healer.

 

Sorc healer AOE - 8 targets, massive radius of healing, higher HPS than operative's version.

 

Operative AOE - 4 target long duration HoT for less healing per person.

 

Sorc healer - extricate.

 

Operative healer - no rescue.

 

Sorc healer - 150% speed burst.

 

Operative healer - 20% speed "burst".

 

Sorc healer - steady mana regen.

 

Operative healer - tiered and penalized for deficit.

 

Sorc healer - 30m ranged CC.

 

Operative - melee CC.

 

Sorc mitigation - bubble.

 

Operative mitgation - weak HoT, takes 2 GCD's to stack.

 

Etc. List goes on and on and on. That's just one example of a matchup where sorc just dominates, there's a long list of them.

[Daellia]

Etc. List goes on and on and on. That's just one example of a matchup where sorc just dominates, there's a long list of them.

 

Operative: F*ing stealth.

[ZeusThunder]

If one is looking for a ranged dps class and is choosing between a merc or a sorcerer there is no reason to choose sorcerer.

 

Merc DOES NOT get:

Speed Buff

Ranged Interrupt

Bubble

2 different slows

 

In exchange they DO get:

Heavy Armor

 

Why would anyone choose a merc for ranged dps? A sorcerer is better in every way except they get about 10% less armor.

[frmorrison]

Mercs do more dps (standing still at least). I am sure the patch notes will be out in a week or so, then people will know if Sorcerers will be nerfed.

[Tallyhoe]

We can heal from stealth now?!?!

[-HaLs-]

If one is looking for a ranged dps class and is choosing between a merc or a sorcerer there is no reason to choose sorcerer.

 

Merc DOES NOT get:

Speed Buff

Ranged Interrupt

Bubble

2 different slows

 

In exchange they DO get:

Heavy Armor

 

Why would anyone choose a merc for ranged dps? A sorcerer is better in every way except they get about 10% less armor.

 

because they don't play the same?? Its really easy to put stuff on paper and determine who or which is better due to x spells and attacks. It's all about how you want to play.

[ShupFace]

Its really easy to put stuff on paper and determine who or which is better due to x spells and attacks.

Is it?

[heikaze]

If one is looking for a ranged dps class and is choosing between a merc or a sorcerer there is no reason to choose sorcerer.

 

Merc DOES NOT get:

Speed Buff

Ranged Interrupt

Bubble

2 different slows

 

In exchange they DO get:

Heavy Armor

 

Why would anyone choose a merc for ranged dps? A sorcerer is better in every way except they get about 10% less armor.

 

Because Merc have a 55% armor pent.

 

They do not have a bubble, but they do have a Barrier that decrease damage by 25 percent. Then they also can have 10 percent damage barrier with a 80 percent up time when spec. Then they also have heavy armor. They also have a better knock back that applies slow on the target.

[Duncker]

Lets not kid ourselves.. Mercs are going down before Sorcs.

[TheRealBaali]

Lets not kid ourselves.. Mercs are going down before Sorcs.

 

Agreed. I have a sorc a jugg and a merc. IMO Id place them Merc > sorc > jugg. Sorcs seem to be mediocre dps while being one of the best healers/support in the game. Mercs just strait up own you in 5 secs if you let them. I easily top dmg charts on my Merc and I run the "gimp" spec which most PTs run (DoTs/burns/rail shot). I haven't even tried the tracer round BS cause I know the nerf is inc.

[imraziel]

Does everyone seriously forget a sorc is at the bottom of the food chain in 1v1?

 

The problem is people can't accept their own short comings. I did a flashpoint with a group of the biggest whiners. Who blamed all their short comings on "glitches"... When in reality it was comPlete human error. For example it took an extra 20min to get past one area because they either didn't move when they respawned, or they did an action that took them out of stealth. The worst part was they always tried to run away, but instead ran into another mob. They insisted that the enemies were some how able to detect them before the temp stealth wore off...

[gibmachine]

Because Merc have a 55% armor pent.

 

They do not have a bubble, but they do have a Barrier that decrease damage by 25 percent. Then they also can have 10 percent damage barrier with a 80 percent up time when spec. Then they also have heavy armor. They also have a better knock back that applies slow on the target.

Sorcs abilities completely bypass armor without having to stack the debuff first.

 

Sorc knockback also applies slow and even root when talented.

 

Just so you know.

Edited March 10, 2012 by gibmachine

[skarlson]

Sorcs abilities completely bypass armor without having to stack the debuff first.

 

Sorc knockback also applies slow and even root when talented.

 

Just so you know.

 

It is this kind of misinformation that causes people to say oooh sorcs op!!!! nerf!!!!! Sorcs have a FEW abilities that bypass armor because they do internal damage. Thundering blast which is the 31 point lightning talent on a 9s cd with a 2s cast time that no one specs because full lightning sucks in pvp. Affliction does internal damage over time.

 

Creeping terror does internal damage over time but is also a 31 point talent in madness so you cannot have both it and thundering blast and most people do not spec for ct because overall it is considered lackluster just like tb. Deathfield does internal damage and is a decent aoe especially if you spec for the crit dmg buff and death mark.

 

That's it, the rest of our abilities are affected by armor because they do either energy or kinetic damage. This includes chain lightning, force storm, crushing darkness, force lightning and lightning strike. In most sims force lightning constitutes the largest portion of our damage by far because it is spammable so the vast portion of our damage is affected by armor. While DF is internal it is on a 15s cd and affects only 3 targets max while CL is on a 6s cd, does higher base damage, received an inherent 20% damage boost from wrath in most specs that use it and affects up to 5 targets and force storm also does energy damage so the majority of our aoe damage is also affected by armor.

 

Our aoe knockback does NOT have a slow attached to it. In fact it doesn't even knock back as far as the equivalent abilities from other classes, the root is correct if you spec for it but you must give up damage to do that. The kb sends people to 10m which is far shorter than what it did, and what other classes kbs STILL do, in beta where it was nerfed because of whiners like you. If you are going to complain about sorcerers at least give facts and not fantasy to substantiate your claims.

[Daellia]

It is this kind of misinformation that causes people to say oooh sorcs op!!!! nerf!!!!! Sorcs have a FEW abilities that bypass armor because they do internal damage. Thundering blast which is the 31 point lightning talent on a 9s cd with a 2s cast time that no one specs because full lightning sucks in pvp. Affliction does internal damage over time.

 

Creeping terror does internal damage over time but is also a 31 point talent in madness so you cannot have both it and thundering blast and most people do not spec for ct because overall it is considered lackluster just like tb. Deathfield does internal damage and is a decent aoe especially if you spec for the crit dmg buff and death mark.

 

That's it, the rest of our abilities are affected by armor because they do either energy or kinetic damage. This includes chain lightning, force storm, crushing darkness, force lightning and lightning strike. In most sims force lightning constitutes the largest portion of our damage by far because it is spammable so the vast portion of our damage is affected by armor. While DF is internal it is on a 15s cd and affects only 3 targets max while CL is on a 6s cd, does higher base damage, received an inherent 20% damage boost from wrath in most specs that use it and affects up to 5 targets and force storm also does energy damage so the majority of our aoe damage is also affected by armor.

 

This is accurate. Approximately 65% of a sorcerer's damage is mitigated by armor of said sorcerer is 31-Lightning or 31-Madness speced. Approximately 75% of it is armor-mitigated if the sorcerer is any of the hybrid builds. In either case, nearly all of our burst damage is armor-mitigated.

[gibmachine]

It is this kind of misinformation that causes people to say oooh sorcs op!!!! nerf!!!!! Sorcs have a FEW abilities that bypass armor because they do internal damage. Thundering blast which is the 31 point lightning talent on a 9s cd with a 2s cast time that no one specs because full lightning sucks in pvp. Affliction does internal damage over time.

 

Creeping terror does internal damage over time but is also a 31 point talent in madness so you cannot have both it and thundering blast and most people do not spec for ct because overall it is considered lackluster just like tb. Deathfield does internal damage and is a decent aoe especially if you spec for the crit dmg buff and death mark.

 

That's it, the rest of our abilities are affected by armor because they do either energy or kinetic damage. This includes chain lightning, force storm, crushing darkness, force lightning and lightning strike. In most sims force lightning constitutes the largest portion of our damage by far because it is spammable so the vast portion of our damage is affected by armor. While DF is internal it is on a 15s cd and affects only 3 targets max while CL is on a 6s cd, does higher base damage, received an inherent 20% damage boost from wrath in most specs that use it and affects up to 5 targets and force storm also does energy damage so the majority of our aoe damage is also affected by armor.

 

Our aoe knockback does NOT have a slow attached to it. In fact it doesn't even knock back as far as the equivalent abilities from other classes, the root is correct if you spec for it but you must give up damage to do that. The kb sends people to 10m which is far shorter than what it did, and what other classes kbs STILL do, in beta where it was nerfed because of whiners like you. If you are going to complain about sorcerers at least give facts and not fantasy to substantiate your claims.

 

I stand corrected then. I'm feeling kinda stupid right now for assuming that everything thatb is not melee attack deal unmitigated damage.

[Daellia]

I stand corrected then. I'm feeling kinda stupid right now for assuming that everything thatb is not melee attack deal unmitigated damage.

 

This is actually a fairly common misconception, so don't feel too bad. I suspect it's based on the manner in which damage was dealt with in WoW, wherein the type of the attack (melee, ranged, spell) determined both what sort of avoidance it was subject to and what sort of mitigation it was. This is not the way it works in this game, however.

 

In SWTOR, attacks have two types, attack type and damage type. The attack type may be Melee, Ranged, Force, or Tech. The former two are subject to avoidance in the form of Defense (which covers dodge, parry, deflect, etc) and Shield, while the latter tow are subject to avoidance only in the form of Resistance (which is extremely rare to find on a target).

 

Each attack then does one of four types of damage: Kinetic, Energy, Internal, Elemental. The former two include all "Weapon Damage" attacks (as well as the majority of all other attacks, particularly direct damage), and are subject to damage reduction via Armor, while the latter two (which includes the majority of DoT effects) are subject to the target's generally much lower Internal/Elemental Damage Reduction.

 

Attack type and Damage type are mostly independent. "Weapon Damage" attacks obviously must be Melee or Ranged, but "Weapon Damage" is really just shorthand for saying "deals the type of damage that your weapon does". For example, vibroblades deal Kinetic while lightsabers deal Energy. All weapons are either Kinetic or Energy. The majority of Internal and Elemental effects are either Force or Tech, but not all of them (example, Deadly Saber is itself a Force attack, but relies on Melee attacks to actually apply the DoT, which then deals Internal damage).

 

The only major advantage provided to classes that use predominantly Force/Tech is a negation of the target's Defense and Shield chance, which is only really relevant to tanks. This, however, is one of the major reasons why tank gear is considered so lack-luster in PvP, because most classes deal at least half of their damage via Force or Tech effects, and some (operatives and sorcerers, for example), deal most or all of their damage with Force or Tech attacks.

[Kizah]

Do they have too many tools in pvp?

 

Are they too hard to kill?

 

Do they add too much to a huttball match?

 

What are your thoughts?

 

People are QQing because they think the bubble is the most OP thing in existance when in reality it isn't.

 

They're also probably crying for a nerf because a good Sorc LoS'd them and kited them to death, as they should because they're squishy as hell for a reason. No intelligent Sorc is going to stand there trying to tank hits, that's absurd.

 

Bottom line, they die to something that isn't their class, they cry about it.

 

And to note, I don't have a Sorc and don't feel they need a nerf.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Kizah

[SobyOne]

And they'll take the less time consuming route of destroying our class.

 

 

BW took a very direct route to destroying the operative/scoundrel. Now they have no sustain damage like sorc, low survuvability unlike sorc(SUPERRRRR Bubble), HUGE energ pool, best heals in game and have an amazing AoE, you have a knockback, ops do not. The only thing that is far better that operatives have that yall don't is story and VO .

 

So FFS shut up about your EZ class and pick up a hard class to play and than come back, otherwise all of you Sorcs defending you class (50% of the population) need to shut up and stop whinning about your poor poor class and how you got a lil cut, while others just got tossed off a mountain. Shut up all of you Sorcs unless you have played another class to 50!

[SobyOne]

BW took a very direct route to destroying the operative/scoundrel. Now they have no sustain damage like sorc, low survuvability unlike sorc(SUPERRRRR Bubble), HUGE energ pool, best heals in game and have an amazing AoE, you have a knockback, ops do not. The only thing that is far better that operatives have that yall don't is story and VO .

 

So FFS shut up about your EZ class and pick up a hard class to play and than come back, otherwise all of you Sorcs defending you class (50% of the population) need to shut up and stop whinning about your poor poor class and how you got a lil cut, while others just got tossed off a mountain. Shut up all of you Sorcs unless you have played another class to 50!

 

On a side not Sorcs are sooo easy to kill becasue you all are 10 year olds who back peddle .

[JaddynnStarr]

As a 61 Valor Assassin and 61 Valor Sorcerer I know only bad players die to Sorcerer and only bad team allow the Sorcerer to run free on platforms.

 

^^^^^ you speak truth brother... im always lookin for ways to slip by un noticed to pull or start layin down aoe's...

 

Having played shadow and sorc, I think the reason people call for sorc nerfs is purely because sorcs end up near the top of the wz charts often. People feel sorcs kill too easily because they don't realise they are being attacked until too late and are usually being worked by multiple sorcs (popular class). When being attacked by melded there's no ignoring the threat. Sorc damage can be easy to miss at first.

 

this right here is the main culprit to their cries... its hard to tell where those invisible AOEs are commin from... especialyy if they are led with... by the time im spammin lightning to proc CL or CD, i got a good amount of dmg goin on them (that is unless of course, a pesky healer is keepin him alive heheeh)

[Masterboodles]

Sorcerers come into there power early on and from the outside look overpowered early on. At mid-high levels from the outside looking in they seem a good class.

 

Many I group with talk about the Power of the sorcerer early on as if it stayed that way at 50.

 

I do not play a sorcerer but do group with one a lot and play with and against them at times.

[Nex-soulshatter]

Bad player of class A goes up against really good player of class B. Gets his *** handed to him. Goes to forums and complains that class B is overpowered, because 99% of players can't even entertain the idea that they aren't the best player that's ever played the game. This is further compounded by the majority of players being used to Blizzard's hand-holding, where the game protects you from all the things that mark a bad players, so players never learn that they need to get better and simultaneously the good players don't stand out as much.

 

Basically, the forums are the absolutely last place you should ever look to see which class is imbalanced.

 

Sorcs have a fair amount of CC, and properly speced, a fair amount of AoE. However, this is offset by their relatively limited defensive options and extremely low base mitigation. Sorcs are glass cannons with a lot of tricks up their sleeves. Mercs are titanium cannons with a few less tricks. It all evens out.

 

As per usual Daellia is dead on in his statement.

 

As someone who has done extensive research on class DPS via frapsing and manually logging combat, Sorcerer's are fine. Actually we're slightly behind the other DPS classes. With our blatant lack of any sort of defensive capabilities, we need a slight buff if anything in terms of damage output. As of right now the current DPS hierarchy is: Marauders > Mercenary > Sniper > Sorcerers. However pending the fight Marauders will drop behind the ranged if boss mechanics prevent them from standing within melee range. Also it should be noted that on fights where movement is prevalent that Snipers will top over Mercenaries due to the DoT nature of their Lethality spec - it allows more DPS while moving.

 

It is not a large difference between Sorcs and the others mind you, although beings that Mercenaries and Marauders have both more DPS and defensive utility it would stand to reason that we should be right behind Snipers on DPS.

 

Once again we are only slightly behind the other classes listed and personally, I more than make up for it via my use of Static Barrier and Extrication as a clutch. However, your average player cannot be expected to perform their role to maximum efficiency while stretching their heads to roles beyond. With this in mind we could use a SLIGHT DPS increase.

 

Also... you shouldn't be using PvP Warzone statistic results to judge class balance either. Any large numbers in PvP are attained through AoE damage and therefore aren't relevant to overall class balance. I can farm up over 1mill AoE damage in a Voidstar, but I'll never beat our Marauder in a stand-up DPS fight.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Nex-soulshatter