PVP was more fun in 10-49 w/o expertise.

[Monoth]

Bottom line is it is more competitive.

 

Get rid of the Exp stat, its just stupid anyway.

 

No Im not a scrub, yes I have full Champ, and yes I still think resilance err expertise needs to go.

 

I agree 1000%

 

Lvls 10-49 in PvP was so much fun, then I hit 50 and it's about being massacred for the next 6-8 weeks while you slowly grind your way up to battlemaster gear...

 

Although I doubt it will happen as PvP'ers will QQ about PvE players coming into warfronts with their T3 Operation gear... But they didn't earn it PvP'ing no fair !!!!! QQ QQ QQ

 

(sigh)

[Dankvart]

2 things:

- Expertise is not really a major problem. Everyone has just over 10%. So it evens out. If you don't have enough expertise, that's your problem really, it's easy to get.

Until crossrealm warzones are implemented it IS a major problem.

 

On certain realms you get versus same ppl in top pvp gear all the time, and it doesn't help gathering points/commendations those people who started later/wasn't lvling 24/7.

2 wins in 4 hours of constant wz play? Battlemaster healers doing 500k heal in one game, laughing in your face when you try to dps them? GL with getting geared in such environment.

 

I've been through whole WoW, I played AoC, but here PvP system is the worst developed.

[Aetou]

 

 

When I say its less compettitive I mean just that, every single game I have played at 50 was won by a large margin whether I was on winning team or not, the margin was just dominated. in 1-49 I had MANY matches that were right down to the wire.

 

Strange, in my 50s games I've seen plenty of ACW wins with less than a 50 point margin (seen several 5 point wins, even.) I've seen Huttball go down to who holds the ball last, and had the ball carrier both survive with 400 health left (it was me!) and die with 7s to go. In Voidstar I've had what would be the winning plant be made 2s too late (so it had 2s left on its CD.)

 

The 10-49 bracket has so much more potential for vastly imbalanced sides than the 50 bracket does. Characters below 20 who lack key abilities really effect the team and if you get 3-4 of them you're generally screwed. 3-4 fresh 50s plus the rest of the PUG being decent still has a chance against a Premade, although Premades do dominate for obviously reasons.

 

So, on my server at least the 50 bracket is more competitive, more balanced, more fun and has a better sense of community as people know each other on both sides.

[Kai-Eurah-Tird]

No, you wouldn't get facerolled by people in rakata gear because the PvP gear would then have equivalent stats to make up for the loss of expertise.

 

Expertise would then be moved to PvE gear, so you can't acquire PvP gear and then "faceroll" through PvE content, you'd still need to progress and acquire the new PvE stat.

 

Removing Expertise doesn't mean removing the system completely. It means moving it somewhere else to accomplish the same goal: Make PvP more "even" regardless of where your gear comes from, require Progression in PvE.

 

Try this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=275614

 

Such a system would mean more people can easily PvP due to no disparity in gear caused by Expertise alone. It still requires progression for PvE, since you still have to get "PvE Expertise" from previous content.

 

It also helps combat gear-inflation, because the PvE stat is the main factor for PvE, not pure stats.

 

It doesn't matter where you put expertise, in PVE or PVP. People will still complain. "OMG, I can't beat this guys in t3 PVP gear with my lvl 40 greens, nerf him."

[Monoth]

Yeah that bracket is really fun for higher level players with all their abilities. Not so much for the lower levels that get rolled in 2-3 hits without any way to counter because they haven't unlocked the abilities yet. How is this different from geared players killing lower geared players in the 50's bracket? At least in that bracket everyone has all their abilities. It's these same fresh 50's who are used to being the big fish in that bracket who come here and whine about actually going against people their own level who have all their abilities that make these posts. Getting pvp gear is so trivial now that if you fail to get it, it's your own laziness and poor planning.

 

Seriously...suck it up. Do you really expect to dominate when you solo queue?

 

How is getting PvP gear trivial? You must be Sith which is easy street due to them outnumbering the republic in Ilum and can easily do his dailies with nobody bothering him..

 

Or you exploited Ilum in the beginning when you would find 1 republic to flip the control points for 200 sith people hanging around the area.... or possibly you spent your time in 1.1 where you could camp the other sides base and kill the turret for lots of easy valor.... you know stuff you can't do anymore....

[StealthStalker]

Yeah that bracket is really fun for higher level players with all their abilities. Not so much for the lower levels that get rolled in 2-3 hits without any way to counter because they haven't unlocked the abilities yet. How is this different from geared players killing lower geared players in the 50's bracket? At least in that bracket everyone has all their abilities. It's these same fresh 50's who are used to being the big fish in that bracket who come here and whine about actually going against people their own level who have all their abilities that make these posts. Getting pvp gear is so trivial now that if you fail to get it, it's your own laziness and poor planning.

 

Seriously...suck it up. Do you really expect to dominate when you solo queue?

 

I just went and rolled a new character with a guildie, we duo queue currently as snipers. We plan to only level them thorugh queueing and doing the class story quest, and I'm quite positive it'll be more fun than I have anytime I queue on those level 50's. The few we've done thus far have confirmed that.

 

The gear disparity isn't even really my largest issue, it's the battlemasters who no longer play to win once they have their daily done... or people who just can't play in general. This will be even more apparent next patch when you can acquire 2k valor by simply getting 4 medals.

 

I join Warzones to play the warzone, complete the objectives. I would do world PvP for the killing, ganking, and other aspects. Unfortunately due to framerate/population imbalance the latter isn't really feasible (yes, we're Imperial atm. That's obviously on us, though and I can't complain about it).

 

Anyway, I posted a little bit above about how I would address the gear issue. The other issues of people playing the objective or just going for kills is something I've disliked about Warzones from every game. It's not something easily rectified, which disappoints me. I have never enjoyed Warzones in any game really. Huttball is the first one I can honestly say I enjoy playing. I hope to see more maps for it in the future, but I don't know we'll stick around long enough to see them.

Edited March 1, 2012 by StealthStalker

[WutsInAName]

Strange, in my 50s games I've seen plenty of ACW wins with less than a 50 point margin (seen several 5 point wins, even.) I've seen Huttball go down to who holds the ball last, and had the ball carrier both survive with 400 health left (it was me!) and die with 7s to go. In Voidstar I've had what would be the winning plant be made 2s too late (so it had 2s left on its CD.)

 

The 10-49 bracket has so much more potential for vastly imbalanced sides than the 50 bracket does. Characters below 20 who lack key abilities really effect the team and if you get 3-4 of them you're generally screwed. 3-4 fresh 50s plus the rest of the PUG being decent still has a chance against a Premade, although Premades do dominate for obviously reasons.

 

So, on my server at least the 50 bracket is more competitive, more balanced, more fun and has a better sense of community as people know each other on both sides.

 

^ This is the exact opposite of what I have experienced. Never had a huttball that was not a 6point match. Never had a CW that was even marginally close. I suppose VS would be the closest matches because on my server more time than not no one reaches the datacore on either side and it is too easy to interupt and respawn is WAY to fast. (I have literally killed guys and before bomb progress was halfway the SAME person was interupting again...IMO that is whacked too).

 

 

How about other people, would you say the above posters experience mirrors yours?

[StealthStalker]

It doesn't matter where you put expertise, in PVE or PVP. People will still complain. "OMG, I can't beat this guys in t3 PVP gear with my lvl 40 greens, nerf him."

 

They can complain all they want, the fact is there will not be as large of a disparity as there is right now. Right now expertise does matter. If it were a PvE stat, it would not matter in PvP.

 

The only difference in PvP will be the minor stat differences in tiers of gear. Which is perfectly acceptable compared to a straight up 20% swing of incoming/outgoing damage in addition to the healing benefits.

Edited March 1, 2012 by StealthStalker

[StealthStalker]

^ This is the exact opposite of what I have experienced. Never had a huttball that was not a 6point match. Never had a CW that was even marginally close. I suppose VS would be the closest matches because on my server more time than not no one reaches the datacore on either side and it is too easy to interupt and respawn is WAY to fast. (I have literally killed guys and before bomb progress was halfway the SAME person was interupting again...IMO that is whacked too).

 

 

How about other people, would you say the above posters experience mirrors yours?

 

If we're playing other Imperials, Huttball matches are generally close until one gets a few good scores. I've had quite a few that were down to the wire though.

 

If we against play Republic, it's usually a rout. I attribute this to Imperials getting much more practice in the Huttball arena than Repubbies.

Edited March 1, 2012 by StealthStalker

[Jebi]

The 10-49 bracket has so much more potential for vastly imbalanced sides than the 50 bracket does. Characters below 20 who lack key abilities really effect the team and if you get 3-4 of them you're generally screwed. 3-4 fresh 50s plus the rest of the PUG being decent still has a chance against a Premade, although Premades do dominate for obviously reasons.

 

I've found the opposite to be true. I've looked at my team pre-match, where the large majority of them were 20 or less, and thought 'oh crap, we're screwed'... but then, we win by a large margin... even against a team of 30's and 40's. [we've even gone 600:0 on ald with 2 x lvl 15's]

 

Hell, it's happened so frequently i don't even bother checking peoples level's anymore.

 

Not to mention, when I re-roll I always surprise myself on how well I do as a low level. There's been plenty of times i've killed level 40's (even 40's of my own class) and still had plenty of HP remaining. The bolster buff seems to overbuff the few abilities you do have.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Jebi

[StealthStalker]

Kind of reminds me of Warhammer PvP at this point. I made this nifty little graph a few years ago, imagine tiers as level "brackets" here instead.

 

http://www.omploader.org/vMWJrag

 

Hooray Mythic!

[Pashgan]

Rakata suits perform just fine in PvP. Difference between lvl10-49 PvP and lvl50 PvP isn't expertise - it's

 

crappy equipment VS good equipment

 

just farm yours and enjoy it again.

[Khelzar]

What the people saying 'Just go gear yourself up noob' fail to understand is how the whole thing works in the overall picture.

 

Once a faction is at the top gear, they'll just stay there. I laugh every time someone says 'You must be Sith, easy mode' because in my server Republic dominates the 50 bracket.

 

But it works something like this. Top Faction got their gear first (through Ilum exploit, more players speed leveling what have you). They reach overall Battlemaster level before the Non-Top faction.

 

From there on, is hardly a contest. The Top Faction more often than not will field a team of mostly Battlemasters, while the opposite faction might have a couple. The Top Faction wins. This continues. The Non-Top Faction gets frustrated. Their BMs queue up less and less because they end up paired with people not as geared up because they're gearing up through LOSSES.

 

While the Top Faction's new players get their gear much faster, because they're gearing up through WINS. So usually it's easier for the Top Faction to carry a few new players and as it is, they will gear up faster than the new player in the Non-Top Faction.

 

So as this happens, people in the Non-Top Faction just reroll to the Top Faction, why not? It's way easier to gear up. Thus, the powerbase of the Top Faction increases yet again.

 

I rerolled after I got my first level 50. And on that second character, I mostly PvPed while doing my class quest while I was leveling. When I reached 50 I saw people I PvPed against in the 10-49 bracket get Battlemaster waay faster than I did, because again, regardless of them being new players, they're gearing up through wins ,while I gear up through losses.

 

That is the actual issue with this system. Not anything else. But the fact that there's no competition at all if a faction for whatever reason, became dominant much faster than the other faction.

[Jebi]

Kind of reminds me of Warhammer PvP at this point. I made this nifty little graph a few years ago, imagine tiers as level "brackets" here instead.

 

http://www.omploader.org/vMWJrag

 

Hooray Mythic!

 

Haha, so true.

[WutsInAName]

Rakata suits perform just fine in PvP. Difference between lvl10-49 PvP and lvl50 PvP isn't expertise - it's

 

crappy equipment VS good equipment

 

just farm yours and enjoy it again.

 

Please re-read again. I am gear and dont get 'stompped' it just LESS FUN overall!

 

 

I swear a lot of people on these forums never passed grade 6 judging by thier reading comprehension.

[xxdragonragexx]

They can complain all they want, the fact is there will not be as large of a disparity as there is right now. Right now expertise does matter. If it were a PvE stat, it would not matter in PvP.

 

The only difference in PvP will be the minor stat differences in tiers of gear. Which is perfectly acceptable compared to a straight up 20% swing of incoming/outgoing damage in addition to the healing benefits.

 

You do know that you are full of fail, right?

The stats on pvp gear are calculated based on pve gear which is the reason we have a huge disparity. They have to make sure that players do enough DPS, mitigation, and healing to survive bosses if they have high enough gear and make sure that players die if they have low tier of gear to prevent players from skipping content.

 

Once Bioware has calculated the right stats for Rakata gear, collumni gear and etc, then they create the pvp counterparts with expertise. This is the sole reason why we have -30% on pvp healing. This is the reason why pvp games like warhammer, daoc and etc do not have expertise because they calculate stats based on pvp first before pve.

 

They will not add a pve stat because this is a PvE game with pvp as an after thought. They will not sacrifice pve, raiding or dungeon crawling for the sake of pvp. They would rather pvpers QQ rather than pvers.

 

But guess what? PvE and PvP are actually equal in terms of progression. Fresh 50s in pve cannot go into the top and hardest dungeons. They do not expect to go there asap. They expect to progress in gear and slowly get there. The only difference is that pvp community have whiny, bratty and crybaby players. They expect to have everything the moment they hit 50 which is idiotic.

Edited March 1, 2012 by xxdragonragexx

[StealthStalker]

You do know that you are full of fail, right?

The stats on pvp gear are calculated based on pve gear which is the reason we have a huge disparity. They have to make sure that players do enough DPS, mitigation, and healing to survive bosses if they have high enough gear and make sure that players die if they have low tier of gear to prevent players from skipping content.

 

Once Bioware has calculated the right stats for Rakata gear, collumni gear and etc, then they create the pvp counterparts with expertise. This is the sole reason why we have -30% on pvp healing. This is the reason why pvp games like warhammer, daoc and etc do not have expertise because they calculate stats based on pvp first before pve.

 

Up until this point of your post, I was beginning to think you hadn't read anything I've said at all muchless the link regarding shifting Expertise from PvP gear to PvE.

 

They will not add a pve stat because this is a PvE game with pvp as an after thought. They will not sacrifice pve, raiding or dungeon crawling for the sake of pvp. They would rather pvpers QQ rather than pvers.

 

That's the real gist of it, but that doesn't take away from the discussion at hand. This discussion at hand, "Why is PvP in lower brackets more entertaining that the high level counterpart? What can be done to fix that?"

 

But guess what? PvE and PvP are actually equal in terms of progression. Fresh 50s in pve cannot go into the top and hardest dungeons. They do not expect to go there asap. They expect to progress in gear and slowly get there. The only difference is that pvp community have whiny, bratty and crybaby players. They expect to have everything the moment they hit 50 which is idiotic.

 

I consider myself a PvP'er first and foremost, but I absolutely love progressing in PvE as well. Generalizing the PvP community in such a way doesn't help your argument any, even if it might hold a small glimmer of truth.

 

Having said that, PvP and PvE should not be completely equal in "progression". PvP should simply be that, PvP. It should be a competitive atmosphere that you can partake in regardless of where you spend the majority of your time.

 

Moving the "Expertise" stat from PvP to PvE would mean that anyone, anywhere can jump into a battleground and be on a more equal footing than we currently see. Sure, those who have PvP'd longer will have higher tier gear, but it isn't a straight % increase in stats. Sure those that have PvE'd their Raid gear will have the same benefits, but it too is more equal than we what we see now.

 

You can further incentivize PvP'ing by introducing Realm Abilities that are PvP in nature. PvP gear set bonuses can continue to be more PvP oriented. There's many ways to give a slight edge to those who devote the majority of their time to PvP'ing.

 

In the end, the goal for PvP should be to get as many people as possible out there, enjoying it on a "mostly" equal footing.

 

The goal for PvE is to progress through content and on to the next, because that act of progression is part of the allure.

 

Shifting the Expertise stat I feel would be one of the ways to accomplish both of these goals.

 

The problem as you mentioned earlier is this:

 

They will not add a pve stat because this is a PvE game with pvp as an after thought.

 

It's unfortunate that this is the case, but it's true. I still think it's possible to address it if they choose to by the things I've mentioned here, and in other threads (which I've linked to).

 

My suggestions aren't the only solution however, there's a variety of them I'm sure. Until that change happens or I move on all we can do is throw it up for discussion.

Edited March 1, 2012 by StealthStalker

[rzrknight]

Cry me a river.

 

The Rakata gear is still much stronger than the BM gear therefore , expertise is still 100% needed.

[StealthStalker]

Cry me a river.

 

The Rakata gear is still much stronger than the BM gear therefore , expertise is still 100% needed.

 

Changing expertise doesn't mean leaving everything else as is. Nor does it mean removing it entirely, as per the novels I've written just above you.

[hrelas]

Expertice is there to stop players who gear what is effectively another 20 levels ahead in PvE from destroying everything in PvP. It is simply necessary for the way the game is built. In order to remove it, all stats must be normalized. Since the game literally is nothing but a loot treadmill at the endgame I hardly see the removal of all gear from PvP as a viable way to fix this years old problem. Games such as WoW and TOR were not really built for competitive PvP, which is why the competitive WoW arena e-sports scene is in a pathetic state of decline. It is possible for one player to simply mathematically be better than another player, this goes for balance as well as for gear, however once you reach the expertise cap of 12.1% the playing field is evened out to choice in stats, skill, and class balance.