14k hps?

[Lvein]

Dont worry guys! Im only 120 HP away from being the elite 14k!

[Snoodmaster]

All you are doing is building a gap in game among players, not based on being good or having skill but rather having time and gear.

 

Um what? He said, and fairly reasonably I might add, that he didn't feel comfortable running with people with less gear. Because while skill can compensate for poor gear, it is IMPOSSIBLE to know what a stranger's skill is, but really, really easy to figure out what their gear is. So to be safe it's better to just measure the gear.

 

The first step is admitting you lack what others have and are investing to achieve what you don't. As being, like many, a misguided individual, I further simplified it for you to avoid anymore confusion and/or continuous rereads of my post due to lack of your comprehension:

 

in this case: Gear is a substitution for Skill.

 

No it is not. Measurement of gear is a substitution of measurement of skill. He isn't more or less skilled because he can't gauge the skill of others from just a name. He isn't more or less skilled because he's unwilling to trust to the skill of others. That's just caution.

 

Sure, you can call him a coward, or say that he's being mean or unfair. But saying he's "unskilled" is completely unwarranted and an extremely illogical argument.

[Velmont_]

Um what? He said, and fairly reasonably I might add, that he didn't feel comfortable running with people with less gear. Because while skill can compensate for poor gear, it is IMPOSSIBLE to know what a stranger's skill is, but really, really easy to figure out what their gear is. So to be safe it's better to just measure the gear.

 

 

 

No it is not. Measurement of gear is a substitution of measurement of skill. He isn't more or less skilled because he can't gauge the skill of others from just a name. He isn't more or less skilled because he's unwilling to trust to the skill of others. That's just caution.

 

Sure, you can call him a coward, or say that he's being mean or unfair. But saying he's "unskilled" is completely unwarranted and an extremely illogical argument.

 

you completely missed my point, which you said it yourself:

 

Because while skill can compensate for poor gear

 

This is what I meant by gear is a substitution for skill, whether or not you understood it as a measurement or not, measurement should have been obvious.

 

No I did not call him a coward, or that he is mean or unfair. I said he is unskilled because of his limit he holds himself, being again, fully geared to run HM's easy like watching paint dry, yet at the same time, mandating peoples gear in order to participate in the spoon fed easy mode. and THAT is completely warranted.

 

it is IMPOSSIBLE to know what a stranger's skill is, but really, really easy to figure out what their gear is. So to be safe it's better to just measure the gear.

 

again, if easy is want you strive for, gl. Playing it safe? gl. why would you play a "game" that did not offer a challenge? I'll tell you why, because, you like many, are between decent and suck. Because without that challenge your skill stays stagnate.

 

I have yet to meet a good player say he likes it easy, why? because it's boring out of your mind. These movers and shakers continue to set the bar that people, like you, will rarely reach. These players strive for the top tier, strive for the challenge, strive to find out what impossible means.

 

get carried or get good

[Velmont_]

Tbh, i'd take players of any health above 11k into Black Talon HM and still clear at the same speed and success rate. If a group decides that they want to only bring in 14k plus health players they more than likely finish the instance later than I would due to their vetting players health.

 

BT is a easy zone. It doesn't need a perfect group to clear it. And players who do want a perfect group are very insecure about their own ability that they need better geared players around to hand hold then so they feel that they can do things worser geared players can do with ease. I tend to find better geared groups go slower.

 

My advice to players who think BT goes faster and easier with a 14k plus group is to first learn how to play their class so they don't need hand holding.

 

^ +1 great point.

[todorovh]

I was also removed from the group for not having 14k HPs and being "undergeared". As a DPS sorc I made the clear and noob mistake of not gearing up with pvp gear so I could have lots of HPs and a useless stat for flashpoints.

 

As someone stated earlier, we clearly have not invested enough time into our gear to run a level 50 Black Talon. You think Lvien is bad, I only have 13.4k HPs! When doing our dailies for the last week and getting the mods I couldn't be bothered to move my mouse over to the Force Wielder Mod/Armor and stupidly picked Resolve Mod/Armor. I always knew my laziness would catch up to me one day.

 

So, instead of getting the hard working and elite Black Talon HM pros in their Centurion/Champion gear to carry us lowly scrubs, we went and duo'd The False Emperor instead.

 

http://i44.tinypic.com/30m60ww.jpg

 

Duo-ed False emperor in 124 oranges .. yea right .. you probably wont even get past the first trash pull lol

 

About HP - it really is quite indicative of what gear you have, even if mods are considered.. 124/ 126 is mostly crap ( apart from off hands in certain cases ) and can only reasonably be used to fill missing set pieces for bonuses.

 

More than that less than 14k hp means that you can easily be one or two shoted in certain encounters, without being able to really to do much about it.

 

Also a lot of the fights are pretty melee unfriendly which makes HP even more important

 

Finally if certain people would like to run with specific people - who are you to judge them ? What if their healer was a fresh 50 and they knew he wouldn't be able to keep u alive ?

 

If you don't like it - make your own group and play the way you want to.

[saintflex]

Because I worked for my gear? Got into a guild and raided? Farmed dailies every day that makes me spoon fed? I ran (just like everyone else) hard modes when I first hit 50 with crap gear. I went through the same thing with people not wanting to group with me.

 

I put the time and effort in to gear up. It's not hard. I have no sympathy for people who cry about unfairness when they don't try. If you want to have a good character you gotta work at it sometimes. It's not like it's difficult.

 

So go take your scrub attitude somewhere else.

 

 

HAHAHAHA. I smell butt hurt.

[Nythain]

You know what makes BT go even faster than 14k health? SPACEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAR.

[Snoodmaster]

again, if easy is want you strive for, gl. Playing it safe? gl. why would you play a "game" that did not offer a challenge? I'll tell you why, because, you like many, are between decent and suck. Because without that challenge your skill stays stagnate.

 

You seem to be implying that I don't want a challenge in a HM FP because I don't think I can overcome it. That's the logical fallacy there. At no point did I, or anybody else say that. I don't want a challenge because I don't find running a HM FP for the umpteenth time after I first beat it interesting. There are other parts of the game for that, HM FPs just aren't it.

 

Here's the thing. When I want a challenge, I do NM Soa.

 

Like Alchropie, I've already done HM BT, HM BP, and all the other HM FPs. Done it several times in fact. Done it til I'm kinda sick of it. When I'm running it now, I'm not there for some mythical challenge that was stale a month a go. I'm there to get a BioCrystalline Alloy or some columi gear for Kaliyo. (Temple and Lokin are already full columi) It's as much a waste of my time to group with someone who will drag the group down and turn a farming run into a wipefest as it would be to literally spend the same time driving around in circles in Imperial Fleet handing credits to random lowbies wandering around.

 

Heck, doing the latter is probably even a better use of my time since it'll at least get me real popular round the server.

 

If you want to carry someone through a HM, more power to you. I don't, and others don't. We aren't less skilled because we have different priorities.

[Alchropie]

Done it several times in fact. Done it til I'm kinda sick of it. When I'm running it now, I'm not there for some mythical challenge that was stale a month a go. It's as much a waste of my time to group with someone who will drag the group down and turn a farming run into a wipefest as it would be to literally spend the same time driving around in circles in Imperial Fleet handing credits to random lowbies wandering around.

 

If you want to carry someone through a HM, more power to you. I don't, and others don't. We aren't less skilled because we have different priorities.

 

This exactly.

 

It doesn't bother me one bit that you think i'm "unskilled" or a coward or want easymode. Yes, I don't want to spend 3 hours clearing a HM because everyone just hit 50 and wants to listen to the storyline and needs 4 attempts per boss.

 

I did my time, I paid my dues. If I want to run a HM I'll find other people like me (which isn't hard to do) to run them. I don't mind helping guild mates out. But some random person in all greens asks me to run a HM with them, most of the time I'll say no. Just because I don't want to walk away with 80k in repairs because I was bored one Saturday afternoon.

 

You can't know someones skill. but you can know their gear. No ones going to come out and say "hey i'm a baddie" but if they have decent gear (not talking all elite rakata/columi) but decent. It's a different story.

 

I meet a lot more skilled players in good gear than I meet skilled players in crap gear. And I've grouped with both quite a bit.

 

This is a gear based game, get over it.

[KingOMonkeys]

Just wanted to add something. I healed a pug group in BT HM yesterday with a 11k hp sniper and didn't have any problems. The only issue was the 20k hp "tank" that didn't seem to have tank gear or tank stance or be tank specced or something becasue he was being hit for tons of dmg on what should have been easy pulls. We made it with no deaths but I hadn't seen a tank take that much dmg in BT HM before so I was shocked.

 

I guess the point is HP doesn't prove skill or even if you are specced correctly it just shows you have gear.

[Demarcc]

I started HM's as a Sawbones healer with ~13K health. Never had issues with them. The 14K or 15K etc thing .. meh. Not interested in making spot judgements about people based on a single number.

 

HPs do rise with gear, its unavoidable. Currently my Sawbones runs near 21K raid buffed and I've swapped some mods etc out. Full rakata. I run a little over 2000 cunning and ~1700 End. With raid buffs etc its not hard to hit 19-20K HP as healer/DPS in full rakata.

 

Thats not to say HP is everything. My trooper who I recently hit 50 runs with a couple of RL friends not in my guild. (Guild is heavy progression NiM titles and all that crap, these guys are *Pulse cannon looks cool i'll use that attack*)

 

So they recently hit 50, I grabed a few pieces of gear for them for GTN / crafting etc and off we rolled. My vanguard ~21K, wifes sage (Who i invested time into) ~16K ... the other sage ~13K and commando DPS ~12K. Bare in mind these guys use attacks that look cool over attacks that give the best DPS .. we hit a few boss enrage timers but with CD usage i lived. We've run most of the HM FPs now and they are starting to get some gear .. my point being. If i can take sub 13K health people who use attacks that *look neat* into a HM FP and clear it .. THEY AINT THAT HARD.

[PhoenixMatrix]

While having gear standards for some of the easiest HM flashpoints in the game is pretty silly, don't be surprised by people who look at your HP.

 

As several have already stated, HP is a very "easy" indicator of gear. You take a peek at the DPS to make sure he's not using tank gears, look at his HP, and you immediately have a 80% idea of what his gears are: the selection of gear is so small that there's a nearly direct ratio between gear level and hp.

 

The only thing that doesn't tell you is if they stacked crit surge vs accuracy/alacrity or some such, so its not enough to get a full picture. But if i see someone with 13.5k hp, I know I don't need to look at their gear to know they are gimpy (which, again, for HM flashpoint generally doesn't matter. But if i was going to do Nightmare EV, that would be a no go =P)

[Gyronamics]

Hmm I can tell you that even with full rakata tier gear and rakata implants and ear piece +weapon etc as a Jugg DPS you are sitting at about 18k unbuffed health. Maybe c.19k with full raid buffs.

 

A dps focused on dps is a bit more than 18k before any buffs.

 

A DPS with 20k+ is not just buffed but using mods/stims which are not the best for damage dealing.

 

I can have over 20k if I use a fortitude stim on top of my trooper class buff (5%hp) but that's lowering my damage output.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Gyronamics

[K_Schrimer]

A dps focused on dps is a bit more than 18k before any buffs.

 

A DPS with 20k+ is not just buffed but using mods/stims which are not the best for damage dealing.

 

I can have over 20k if I use a fortitude stim on top of my trooper class buff (5%hp) but that's lowering my damage output.

 

My merc has 20380 Hps self buffed and using an Aim/power stim.

 

1. Rakata gear (-boots and off hand, cant win those rolls to save my life)

2. Endurance Datacrons

3. +10 all datacron

4. 3 points in Pyro endurance line (dont need knockback in arsenal for raids)

 

Raid buffed I have to off tank sometimes on easier bosses (turrets etc)

-----------------------------------------

 

For OP, if someone doesn;t want to group with you; so what, find others. You can't make others play with you just because you want them to regardless of how stupid their reasoning is in your eyes.

Edited March 8, 2012 by K_Schrimer

[Velmont_]

You seem to be implying that I don't want a challenge in a HM FP because I don't think I can overcome it. That's the logical fallacy there. At no point did I, or anybody else say that.

 

What logical fallacy? I stated it, my statement, based on my speculation, based on your information. Where was I not clear or using rhetoric? Stop trying to distort reasoning with your fail psych 101 crap.

 

If you want to carry someone through a HM, more power to you. I don't, and others don't. We aren't less skilled because we have different priorities.

 

You need to reread, you are still missing the point. I'll try to clarify for you one more time. It is a balance, not just the weakest of your group but the group as a whole. Your priorities: "Now that I did my dues, worked hard for my gear, I am entitled for easy mode." That comfortably offers no challenge, it only suggest you need to find another game, to keep your skill increasing to keep you moving forward. But you don't, you stay stagnate, "farming" easy modes with only the qualified individuals you invite to continue this "easy mode" environment. You are limiting yourself, limiting your capabilities, limiting your skill progression.

 

If you want to be carried easy mode by your group, cool. Which if you want it easy, you are right that is your priority, your choice. gl

[Velmont_]

words

 

It shouldn't bother you what I think. Admitting to yourself what you want, and why, and how will it effect you and others is your choice. Which is a great thing. That acknowledgement alone of yourself is a great obstacle to overcome.

 

I use to know someone who always littered and never cared of his actions towards society, and that's how he stood, he knows what he's doing buy tossing trash on the streets, yet doesn't care, doesn't care what people think or what people have to say about that. His justification was other people do it, so why should I care? His taxes pay for street cleaning.

 

If you are content with full acknowledgement of your decision and its repercussions, then it's all good.

 

 

This is a gear based game, get over it.

 

I disagree, subjective. I'd say this is a story driven cooperative based game. Gear is just to keep the younglings happy.

[Miaxi]

Yes, we clearly need full tier 2 gear for an instance filled with normal mobs, where the smallest tier 2 token drops~

 

The only thing you need for BT is a decent skill rotation that kills the bosses before they enrage, and I have seen plenty of people in full purples fail at that basic skill.

[KujinRen]

There's no way a group of people with 14k HP can beat Kaon HM.

 

Just my .02

 

I'm sorry but I disagree. You can have 19-20k HP and your group can still wipe in any HM if people don't know how to play their class. Gear is definitely a clear indication of how much gear you have but it certainly does not determine how skilled you are. It's no surprise when I see a Marauder with 13k HP destroy a target versus another Marauder with 17k HP.

 

No DPS meter to back it up, you might be thinking? You can determine roughly how much damage someone is doing based on how fast a mob dies (for example if there is a trash pull of 5+ strong mobs, each DPS usually tries to take one on their own).

 

This also has a lot to do with knowledge and awareness. For example in Kaon HM, if you do not move away from the exploding ghouls, then you've just made your healer work harder by taking unnecessary damage. Or perhaps you've been in a group where some random moron clicks the barrel before the boss enrages, so that by the time you need to kite him, there's nothing to snare/slow his movement speed.

 

Reminds me of meeting Ebayed toons back in the day in older MMORPGs. They got all the gear in the world but no brain to back it up.

 

My point: A group of 13-14k health players can tear through Kaon HM no problem.

Edited March 13, 2012 by KujinRen

[CHEMLCAL]

So whats the problem? Just look for another group who is willing to go slower and probably wipe at least a few times. Without gear your not getting a set bonus, and you have to be able to play your role efficiently. Seriously, it's a pug why do you care?

The solution to your problem:

say okay and start looking for another group, or start one yourself and get people who dont care about your gear. It's super easy to get 126-136 gear. 140 too but it just takes more time.

[Fdzzaigl]

You're not undergeared for BT (which is supposed to be far easier than Esseles I've heard).

 

I've done a lot of the HM flashpoints with people who have 11-12K health. And health is a bad measure for how good you're gonna do your job anyhow.

 

What you shouldn't do however, is to make a group with only players that have 11-12K health, you won't make enrage timers with that.

A group is made up of different people, the ones who are geared (and it is very easy to be overgeared for hardmodes) can carry the ones that still need the stuff.

 

A geared tank and a geared DPS can carry an undergeared healer and DPS. And vice-versa.

 

My point: A group of 13-14k health players can tear through Kaon HM no problem.

 

Definitely, but sadly, Kaon is the only HM without significant enrage timers (I play republic, so I don't know about empire variants).

Edited March 13, 2012 by Fdzzaigl

[Brutanic]

the better gear you have the more hp you will have, ex as a dps i have 20k hp, 14k is low and they probably wanted to beat bt hm easier

 

"Wanted to beat BT HM easier"...

 

Thats probably the silliest comment I've ever seen.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Brutanic

[DeathDiciple]

You're not undergeared for BT (which is supposed to be far easier than Esseles I've heard).

 

I've done a lot of the HM flashpoints with people who have 11-12K health. And health is a bad measure for how good you're gonna do your job anyhow.

 

What you shouldn't do however, is to make a group with only players that have 11-12K health, you won't make enrage timers with that.

A group is made up of different people, the ones who are geared (and it is very easy to be overgeared for hardmodes) can carry the ones that still need the stuff.

 

A geared tank and a geared DPS can carry an undergeared healer and DPS. And vice-versa.

 

 

 

Definitely, but sadly, Kaon is the only HM without significant enrage timers (I play republic, so I don't know about empire variants).

 

The real question is do people know their rotations/fight mechanics/tricks or not. If you got either 1. carried through content or 2. stacked end over primary stat to make up for '15k hp' you'd still be useless.

 

The only FP I wouldnt run without decently geared up people is HM D7 tbh, both due to enrage timers and other mechanics/end boss aoe spam and such/that really pushes people to their limits. Everything else is easily doable with not-so-gearedup people as long as they have the skills and were actually paying attention how they picked their mods stats etc. Its a known fact higher tier pve gear is non-optimal in terms of stat distribution anyway and not all set bonuses are all that great either, so aside from hp numbers properly optimized lower tier wouldnt be that horribad in hands of good player.