This game lacks epeen

[Omicronmd]

 

Players are understanding more and more what it takes to win and when you look at Huttball (at least on the 2 servers I play on) you're getting matches that go down to the wire. You got no idea how many 0-0, 1-0, 1-1, 2-1, 2-2 scores happening where it could of been anyone's game. On my low level Shadow that only PvPs outside of the class quests had a Voidstar match where EVERYONE was higher level. 43+ with 2 level 38s. Our side had the whole spectrum of levels and we still won. Was a fight from beginning to end, but that's what made it great. Skill was the determining factor there.

 

It is amazing what people can accomplish when they understand and use the mechanics as intended!

[Uruare]

I think the whole concept creates more social divides that we don't really need. We have enough of it in real life. I can see how this is going to turn into a Capitalism vs Socialism debate rather quickly.

 

 

But it wouldn't create or foster social divides that hinge on diminished utility, and that's a big-huge thing to consider.

 

 

If, by completing your class quests, you were appropriately geared to jump right into hardmodes and operations at any difficulty level...would there be people that would seek to avoid the group content altogether if that were the only thing that changed?

 

You betcha. Would be a bad idea to leave it there. Hardmodes and raid-style content would need a new carrot; one that didn't create a sense of need or demand in anybody in order to function.

 

I think, and in fact I'd be willing to make a sizeable bet on, that more people would be happier to -try- such content and get into it if that sense of need and demand were removed in that capacity.

 

Make them -want- to do it because they -want- to look cool, IF they want to look cool in the ways the vanity options provide.

 

Sure, toss some super-spiffy top-notch utility gear in there as well, and make it bloody -BEAUTIFUL- to look at. Create gear with variable appearance options that occur nowhere else in the game except in that group content and nobody's sense of advancement will hinge on that in the utilitarian manner.

 

Utility is core. Utility is function. Don't demean your consumers and make them fight their schedules and their real life obligations to feel like they're enjoying your product to the max.

 

Don't do it. If we can learn just this one lesson from Blizzard's -failures- with WoW, let it be this one; look at how easy they're making it and continue to increasingly make it to get good gear.

 

This is why. It's too toxic to hinge the ego appeal on function; people need to function and, more importantly, FEEL LIKE THEY'RE FUNCTIONING VERY VERY WELL, to enjoy your game.

 

Vanity...is hilariously ignorable. But nobody wants to look like everybody else if they don't have to. Scale the options within easy reach to naturally bridge into group content.

 

I guarantee; yeah, I'm going there, I -guarantee-; that people in generall will complain less and there will be less hostility between 'casuals' and 'hardcore' people if -nobody NEEDS to do that content to mechanically advance-.

 

Vanity ego, for being optional, -BECAUSE- it's ignorable...holds a nearly unchallenged appeal. It isn't forcing anybody to do anything.

 

Justh it 50 and did all your class quests? Awesome, you're ready to join your buddies that're trying to progress through EV NM. You're ready to step confidently into a hardmode flashpoint and, yeah, probably still die a few times learning how to apply yourself.

 

Nobody will be able to look down on you because your gear is garbage in such a scenerio; there's no cause, it's not garbage. Mechanically, in such a scenerio, you are totally ready to dive headfirst into the endgame adventure.

 

And start defining yourself by your appearance, which will reflect your accomplishments directly. You won't have to say a word if you're in the above-theorized glossy black, silver trimmed with violent, streaming particle effects full Nightmare Mode suit.

 

Not a single word. Everyone will know that you busted your junk to get all the pieces for that. It'll do the bragging for you. You can go dance on a fencepost if you think that's the best use of your time, too.

[souloferdrick]

The last thing any game needs is an epeen factor and its not lacking that anyway. No, what this game lacks is much more tangible than some players not being able armory bash folk.

[xxdragonragexx]

This game needs epeen mounts. I'm tired of seeing rusty looking speeders everywhere.

Where is the Ferrari of all speeders. Beautiful mounts that only a few, hardcore or rich people can have.

[Pekish]

(yep English is not my first language. I admit, I was being lazy and not reviewing my post. I will go through the effort to make it easier to read from now on.) ^_^

 

and yes Hard-cores do ruin the game experience of many players

 

a) They spoiler the game and the mechanics.

this not only ruin the "diversity" inside the game since everybody have to do the way the hardcore has found to be more effective (hardcore built/hardcore way to kill a boss/hardcore way to play minigame/etcetc...), but kill the social component of the game "asking for information" became >> "go check the site noob" and dulcis in fundo ruin the experience of "exploring" both the area and the dungeons for million of casuals they are taken by end (not with some insult on the way) and rush though the content like if they were "late"

 

b) Whine like no other

here there is no need of explanation they just get 50 in 2 weeks and then whine about everything and this is too easy and this is too hard and this has to change and why did they change this... EVERYTHING

 

c) tend to be rude with people that just started or that didn’t have the chance to learn yet...

if you play 8/10 hours a day it mean 150 hours in 2 week a casual player play 2/3 hours a day it means 30-45 hours in 2 week so you can't expect he know everything and yet you treat him like **** if they don’t know

 

etc.etc. there are millions of reason why hardcore are ruining the game I could go on and on and yet I don’t see any reason why they are good for the game... and your money are the same as mine so "I pay the account" it's not a good enough reason

 

I challenge you to tell me 1 thing that Hardcore are good for in a game... other then rush the content whine ruin the comunity insult(most of the time) and feeling superior over a couple of pixel(that only prove some psycological serious problem)

 

...Not only they actually will even be a burden for sociaty in future since a person that play 8 hours a day it's not really a person that the sociaty will actually find "usefull" in future with few expection obviously.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Pekish

[Dumpiduke]

But it wouldn't create or foster social divides that hinge on diminished utility, and that's a big-huge thing to consider.

 

Make them -want- to do it because they -want- to look cool, IF they want to look cool in the ways the vanity options provide.

 

Sure, toss some super-spiffy top-notch utility gear in there as well, and make it bloody -BEAUTIFUL- to look at. Create gear with variable appearance options that occur nowhere else in the game except in that group content and nobody's sense of advancement will hinge on that in the utilitarian manner.

 

.

 

There has been a lot of talk on this board regarding rewards ever since it was discovered that NM modes were so incredibly easy in TOR compared to other games. Given the current way that operations are structured (Normal, Hard, Nightmare), and your suggestion to provide vanity gear as incentive to run harder modes of the same dungeon and the advent of the improved modding system that is coming in 1.2, I would propose the following solution to the end-game loot situation (keep in mind that all artifact gear will be fully extractable including the item set bonuses in 1.2):

 

1.) Normal mode OPS & HM Flashpoints – Bosses drop Tier 1 Artifact gear (Tionese) with a CHANCE of dropping Tier 1.5 (Columni)

2.) Hard Mode OPS – Bosses drop Tier 1.5 artifact gear (Columni) with a CHANCE of dropping Tier 2 (Rakata) gear.

3.) Nightmare OPS – Bosses drop orange vanity gear (augment slot included) and vanity crafting recipes.

 

This would give ‘hardcore’ raiders incentive to run nightmare ops and more casual players access to all tiers of the best gear in the game. All Bioware would need to do is adjust the difficulty of the operations to account for the types of players that will be running them and BAM, end game incentive without the argument that only the hardcores have access to the best gear in the game. I really do like the sound of that…

[Saurakk]

There has been a lot of talk on this board regarding rewards ever since it was discovered that NM modes were so incredibly easy in TOR compared to other games. Given the current way that operations are structured (Normal, Hard, Nightmare), and your suggestion to provide vanity gear as incentive to run harder modes of the same dungeon and the advent of the improved modding system that is coming in 1.2, I would propose the following solution to the end-game loot situation (keep in mind that all artifact gear will be fully extractable including the item set bonuses in 1.2):

 

1.) Normal mode OPS & HM Flashpoints – Bosses drop Tier 1 Artifact gear (Tionese) with a CHANCE of dropping Tier 1.5 (Columni)

2.) Hard Mode OPS – Bosses drop Tier 1.5 artifact gear (Columni) with a CHANCE of dropping Tier 2 (Rakata) gear.

3.) Nightmare OPS – Bosses drop orange vanity gear (augment slot included) and vanity crafting recipes.

 

This would give ‘hardcore’ raiders incentive to run nightmare ops and more casual players access to all tiers of the best gear in the game. All Bioware would need to do is adjust the difficulty of the operations to account for the types of players that will be running them and BAM, end game incentive without the argument that only the hardcores have access to the best gear in the game. I really do like the sound of that…

 

Regardless if you make gear progression aesthetically based or utility based you will still have people complaining that they should have access to all content and items in game by playing the game how they want to play.

 

If you put difficult content in the game that requires multiple people to coordinate their time, it will only be tackled and repeatedly if there is a carrot on the stick....gear.

 

Whether it is prettier or more useful won't matter to those who do not want to make the time to group up to do the content...they will still want access to that gear.

 

And the same problem will be the same problem.

[Dumpiduke]

Regardless if you make gear progression aesthetically based or utility based you will still have people complaining that they should have access to all content and items in game by playing the game how they want to play.

 

If you put difficult content in the game that requires multiple people to coordinate their time, it will only be tackled and repeatedly if there is a carrot on the stick....gear.

 

Whether it is prettier or more useful won't matter to those who do not want to make the time to group up to do the content...they will still want access to that gear.

 

And the same problem will be the same problem.

 

I agree with you, but I think the complaints would be to a lesser extent and really without any bearing. Waah, he looks cooler than me! Really? I find it hard to believe that there would be just as many people crying about this as not having access to the best gears in the game utility wise...

Edited February 29, 2012 by Dumpiduke

[Pekish]

The problem is not the difficulty is the TIME you think that some people cannot achieve some goal because it's difficult?

 

Don’t kid yourself a monkey can be successful in an MMO...

 

It’s only some people doesn’t have time to reach a quantity of hours (that is not for everybody the exact same, obviously, but in the same area) that allow you to be successful

 

Let’s say to get to do "hard mode" stuff u need to have 400-600 hours under ur butt (maybe less it's just a figure)

 

so some people will never see that content not because they are not good enough but just because they don’t put enough hours in the game

 

to solve the problem and having everybody reach 99% of the content and at the same time keeping it challenging and make the community move together creating a successful social interaction u have to limit the disparity in HOURS

 

You need to cap the weekly hours of game play in that way you will have an healthy community that progress not exactly at the same speed but at a very similar speed

 

TIME IS THE DIFFERENT IN AN MMO like MONEY is the difference in real life

to make the MMO an utopia you have to do the same as you would do to make an utopia in REAL LIFE

 

real life > everybody same or very similar money

mmorpg > everybody same or very similar time

 

all the rest will come short here or there is like to pull a cover that is too small u can cover here but you will come short there.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Pekish

[youwillburn]

utopia is communism?

[Pekish]

utopia is going behond the "money"/"possession" a world where people is really equal

 

i wouldn't call it communism since communism actually exist and it's proven to come short in many aspects due to many reason that i don't think it's the place to discuss.

 

Maybe more of a Socialism... but honestly i wouldn't use a world that already exist that's why we call it utopia and not "comunist/socialism.... whatver"

[Uruare]

utopia is going behond the "money"/"possession" a world where people is really equal

 

Humanity isn't nearly mature enough as a species to handle that kind've thing. Manageable degrees of appeal to vanity though...sure. In an ideal world, we could all have access to whatever we wanted because we could all be trusted to only take what our fair and reasonable judgement warranted.

 

Everything could be on an honor system in which we granted ourselves levels and gear when we felt we deserved them because, as truly mature players, we would want the quality of our experience as well as others to be mutually positive.

 

We would take the time, without a qualm, to pleasantly help eachother understand what some might not understand, accept different viewpoints without feeling threatened in the validity of our own and wave with a smile at those doing things in ways we, ourselves, just don't, and then we'd go on our merry way to play our game as we like.

 

 

In an ideal world, Bioware/EA wouldn't have to enforce many rules of conduct; we would, by general concensus, more than adequately police ourselves in reasonable ways with them as a backdrop to go to when insurmountable difficulties needed adjudication.

 

In an ideal world, there'd be no players mocking eachother for being 'bads' or hating on the those that've achieved the most by ignorantly assuming that they must be failures in life to be able to do all that or have all that in a game.

 

In an ideal world, people would help eachother a lot more, even if it meant enduring some discomfort or inconvenience, and they'd actually care to a reasonable degree about improving everyone's experience one new player at a time, one stuck person at a time or, yes, one ignorant person that doesn't know how to gear and stat or succeed at an encounter at a time.

 

In an ideal world, there'd be no need to be greedy or selfish, cruel or vicious, as being miserable or unhappy about something would be something we could all feel would be adequately addressed and acknowledged by some means or another.

 

In an ideal world, people that know they're not as skilled as others wouldn't feel afraid to admit it and to ask for help because nobody would taunt or denigrate them for having the audacity to admit they're new and ignorant, or even old and ignorant of something and they'd get the advice, the direction and the guidance they seek by asking.

 

In an ideal world...yeah. I could go on for days and every single thing I might say, someone could dispute.

 

What's an ideal or perfect or utopian world look like anyway? All I've ever seen is one in which you do the best you can with what you're able and hope like hell you don't merely survive until you can't and then die miserable.

 

 

 

i wouldn't call it communism since communism actually exist and it's proven to come short in many aspects due to many reason that i don't think it's the place to discuss.

 

Maybe more of a Socialism... but honestly i wouldn't use a world that already exist that's why we call it utopia and not "comunist/socialism.... whatver"

 

 

I think its a radical departure from the actual contexts of the circumstance to start seriously tossing around socio-political and socio-economic terms like socialism, or for that matter communism.

 

This is an artificial environment that's pretty unique in both its socially conveyant infrastructures as well as its methods, modes and means of development. Certain real world elements can and, for the human involvement, -will- apply...but it's a whole different medium we got goin' on here.

 

We're gonna need some new terms for the emergent sociological and psychological nuts these MMO trees are growin', concierge!

[Abiza]

I find arrogant bads (who seem to be happy that this game is easy and bad) to be far more insufferable than arrogant elitists.

 

Well said

[Abiza]

Because I'd like to be able to read the forums without having to wade through fifty seven gazillion threads of "Waah waah waah waah effing waah."

 

The large majority of the threads you speak of are actually posted by people such as yourself with little knowledge of the game. It's most obvious in the class forums where the "casuals" keep posting very bad information to other casuals. It's very noticeable in the PvP forums as well.

 

Get off your high horse. According to you, that's only for "hardcores"

 

Bads will be bads.

[Blackardin]

They should just add a few " I'm the human GOD server" and make it all insanely hard , with whole set's of SUPER epeen gear, that GOD himself would have a hard time with.

 

Put gear scores on, meters and mods.

 

And, to even be able to join these servers, you get 3 chances on one EPIC wrath of everything ops fight. If you fail, you have to stay where you are. You'll have to reroll another char to able to try again.

 

Then, just leave the rest of us to enjoy the game as is.

 

Agree. LOL.

[Blackardin]

Originally Posted by Boxcar

I find arrogant bads (who seem to be happy that this game is easy and bad) to be far more insufferable than arrogant elitists.

 

Well, except the "arrogant elitists" are playing the wrong game. Oops. ;p

 

This is not a shooter, friend. If you had read up on that you would have known before you subbed. Its not even wow. In fact, I'm tending to (although it is a sort of ad hominem) that you may be as great as you argue.

 

I've raided all of wow, had a few server first, tanked everything and lead just about every type of raid. I've often found that these "elite" players are not very elite at all, just looking for a balance that they can handle and most of the casuals cannot. That became quite apparent when the lockout changed in wow and almost all of them defaulted to the easier content.

 

Anyway, I personally love this game. It is much more relaxed and fun. It is everything that I expected....but...then...I did take the time to read up and understand what the game was about. ;p

[Blackardin]

The large majority of the threads you speak of are actually posted by people such as yourself with little knowledge of the game. It's most obvious in the class forums where the "casuals" keep posting very bad information to other casuals. It's very noticeable in the PvP forums as well.

 

Get off your high horse. According to you, that's only for "hardcores"

 

Bads will be bads.

 

Please.... LOL

 

I remember the ole "care bear" argument utilized by those same people that now use the "bad" argument. Being a raider I did not PvP much. Then I tried it. It is as much a cake walk as any aspect of any of these games.

 

It is certainly nothing to brag about.

[Tsaritsin]

This game lacks epeen

 

Good,

 

Close the door on your way out, thx

 

 

 

/Wave

Edited February 29, 2012 by Tsaritsin

[Abiza]

Please.... LOL

 

I remember the ole "care bear" argument utilized by those same people that now use the "bad" argument. Being a raider I did not PvP much. Then I tried it. It is as much a cake walk as any aspect of any of these games.

 

It is certainly nothing to brag about.

 

Congrats on completely missing the point of my post

[Abiza]

On another note, when did the self-proclaimed "casuals" become so damn defensive and sensitive?

[Ansultares]

I think the whole concept creates more social divides that we don't really need. We have enough of it in real life. I can see how this is going to turn into a Capitalism vs Socialism debate rather quickly.

Good, as we've seen what happens when you follow either philosophy, whether in older MMOs (capitalism) or newer MMOs (socialism).

 

On another note, when did the self-proclaimed "casuals" become so damn defensive and sensitive?

Someone once said on this forum, possibly even in this thread, that the debate seems to be between people who like e-peen, and people who are jealous and ashamed of feeling unable to e-peen (even though they full well can and do, those pretentious casual elitists that they are). Edited March 1, 2012 by Ansultares

[Smitar]

On another note, when did the self-proclaimed "casuals" become so damn defensive and sensitive?

 

When they got a game to themselves where 3 months in, they still haven't leveled a toon. I think it's a point of pride that they're paying a monthly fee for a game they don't play. That's why they're pretty unconcerned and defensive about all many and varied game issues...they'll never see them anyway.

 

Only in SWTOR is the stock answer to virtually any concern "you obviously don't belong here, this isn't your type of game, so you should leave". I think "casuals" who spend a year leveling a toon, and are then perfectly content to roll another one are just about the only type of "gamers" (using the term loosely) that haven't been thrown under the bus by SWTOR.

 

Pretty sure that's why they said they were planning on this game still being around in 2025...last of these guys ought to be finishing up the story line about then.

[Eddizel]

The problem is not the difficulty is the TIME you think that some people cannot achieve some goal because it's difficult?

 

Don’t kid yourself a monkey can be successful in an MMO...

 

It’s only some people doesn’t have time to reach a quantity of hours (that is not for everybody the exact same, obviously, but in the same area) that allow you to be successful

 

Let’s say to get to do "hard mode" stuff u need to have 400-600 hours under ur butt (maybe less it's just a figure)

 

so some people will never see that content not because they are not good enough but just because they don’t put enough hours in the game

 

to solve the problem and having everybody reach 99% of the content and at the same time keeping it challenging and make the community move together creating a successful social interaction u have to limit the disparity in HOURS

 

You need to cap the weekly hours of game play in that way you will have an healthy community that progress not exactly at the same speed but at a very similar speed

 

TIME IS THE DIFFERENT IN AN MMO like MONEY is the difference in real life

to make the MMO an utopia you have to do the same as you would do to make an utopia in REAL LIFE

 

real life > everybody same or very similar money

mmorpg > everybody same or very similar time

 

all the rest will come short here or there is like to pull a cover that is too small u can cover here but you will come short there.

 

Wrong, I have already pointed out multiple times, my guild did everything in the game playing on a very casual schedule of 9 hours a week. And we barely even played that because nothing slowed us down, Soa 16 man nightmare took less then 10 attempts.........give me a break.

 

You don't need massive amounts of free time, you just have to not suck.

[Eddizel]

This game lacks epeen

 

Good,

 

Close the door on your way out, thx

 

 

 

/Wave

 

Normally I would just ignore nonsense garbage unintelligent troll responses like this, but I'll bite.

 

Why do you want your game to have less players? Why do you care if they offer challenging content or not?

 

Are you intimidated by me? Does my very existence in the game somehow threaten or bother you?

 

Does asking for challenging raid content and a competitve pvp environment impact the way you want to play the game? Maybe you like leveling toons, watching the story, doing quests, playing casual warzones, doing casual normal mode operation, pugging easier content, whatever. Whatever it is you enjoy, what we are asking for has ZERO effect on how you play the game.

 

Either way, yes, I will be closing the door on my way out.

[Skylarke]

Normally I would just ignore nonsense garbage unintelligent troll responses like this, but I'll bite.

 

Why do you want your game to have less players? Why do you care if they offer challenging content or not?

 

Are you intimidated by me? Does my very existence in the game somehow threaten or bother you?

 

Does asking for challenging raid content and a competitve pvp environment impact the way you want to play the game? Maybe you like leveling toons, watching the story, doing quests, playing casual warzones, doing casual normal mode operation, pugging easier content, whatever. Whatever it is you enjoy, what we are asking for has ZERO effect on how you play the game.

 

Either way, yes, I will be closing the door on my way out.

 

Challenging content is good. The more of it, the better.

 

However, there are players like me who actually enjoy completing it because of the sense of achievement that comes from doing so with my friends/guildmates... and not... about completing it to get "phat lewt" and using it to act superior to everyone else (epeen).