The end game PVE content is great, its execution however was poor.

[FourTwent]

I think the end game is great to be honest, but the execution of it was poor. For PVE they made progression far too easy. If raid bosses dropped less loot and where harder , the hardcore plaayers would still have something to do.

 

But then the casual players wouldn't be able to complete the content. . .or get bored of the asian grind.

 

Sooooo, do you piss off the 1% of hardcore raiders. . .or do you piss off the 99% of the casual players?

 

This is the same issue I saw in the last MMO I played(which was my first). The elitists say it's too easy, and the casuals say it's too hard.

 

It's very logical, but ANY gaming company would be stupid to make a game for the 1%. I'm sorry, that's just not a smart business decision.

 

edit - what does sound logical is that a company can make a game cater to both crowds. . .but the reality is, you can't. . .or its incredibly hard.

 

Even something like 'nightmare modes' being catered toward the hardcore gamers, is only going to piss off the casual players since there will be content(and loot) in game that they can't complete(and obtain). Maybe it'll piss off less people, but in my experience the 99% casual players can be just as loud and obnoxious as the 1% elitists.

Edited February 26, 2012 by FourTwent

[rkopczak]

But then the casual players wouldn't be able to complete the content. . .or get bored of the asian grind.

 

Sooooo, do you piss off the 1% of hardcore raiders. . .or do you piss off the 99% of the casual players?

 

 

Even something like 'nightmare modes' being catered toward the hardcore gamers, is only going to piss off the casual players since there will be content(and loot) in game that they can't complete(and obtain). Maybe it'll piss off less people, but in my experience the 99% casual players can be just as loud and obnoxious as the 1% elitists.

 

Well, I'm not a best football player in the world so I don't earn milions per week, it's logiocal and I dont complain about it, so why are all the people in mmo have to wear best gear?

If you are good, you will earn it, if not - stick to something easier.

That's life, nothing is fair and equal, or they could just email everyone best gear in the game after dinging 50.

Edited February 26, 2012 by rkopczak

[FourTwent]

Well, I'm not a best football player in the world so I don't earn milions per week, it's logiocal and I dont complain about it, so why are all the people in mmo have to wear best gear?

If you are good, you will earn it, if not - stick to something easier.

That's life, nothing is fair and equal, or they could just email everyone best gear in the game after dinging 50.

 

I'm not saying its right, or "logiocal" . But the argument is there.

 

They pay to access the content just like you did. Maybe they dont have 100+ hours a week to dump into an MMO, maybe they only have 5 or 10. So should they be 'punished' because they have real life priorities?

 

What it boils down to is the $$$. They are the 99%. Any smart company(not specifically gaming) will cater to the majority of their market. Simple as that

[Samborino]

But then the casual players wouldn't be able to complete the content. . .or get bored of the asian grind.

 

Sooooo, do you piss off the 1% of hardcore raiders. . .or do you piss off the 99% of the casual players?

 

This is the same issue I saw in the last MMO I played(which was my first). The elitists say it's too easy, and the casuals say it's too hard.

 

It's very logical, but ANY gaming company would be stupid to make a game for the 1%. I'm sorry, that's just not a smart business decision.

 

edit - what does sound logical is that a company can make a game cater to both crowds. . .but the reality is, you can't. . .or its incredibly hard.

 

Even something like 'nightmare modes' being catered toward the hardcore gamers, is only going to piss off the casual players since there will be content(and loot) in game that they can't complete(and obtain). Maybe it'll piss off less people, but in my experience the 99% casual players can be just as loud and obnoxious as the 1% elitists.

 

No you dont understand I never once said they should make normal mode harder it is aimed at casuals, and i think i should change that fromm the "hardcore" players. You dont need to be hardcore to raid, especially in this game. The first time I did EV normal my guild had just formed none of us knew each other , our gear was pretty terrible and we 1 or 2 shot every boss except soa which took us 4 tries. Regardless our guild isnt anything special we dont take raiding to seriously we dont have gear requirements for coming to raids etc.

 

I still think any casual who has any interest in raiding and does a little research on the bosses would have no problem reproducing the exact same results that we had our first night in there, that is too easy, and there is no progression involved with it. Im not asking for it to be infintely harder what im saying is that the operations need a sense of progression, you shouldnt beable to go into a Operation with preraid gear and knock down all the bosses their should be stricter GEAR checks (there is a difference between stricter gear checks and making it harder) so that maybe you need to clear the first 2-3 bosses a few times and get your guild geared up before you can get to the next boss etc.

 

Regardless my main point is that casuals can experience all the content in normal modes and thats fine, leave them easy, hard modes on the other hand are still very easy, none of the mechanics change just more health and more damage. Not to mention they give no incentives for going into nightmare mode or doing 16 mans, beyond it just being an extra challenge most people play MMO's for a sense of character progression, and that shouldnt stop because a few casuals feel cheated because they cant run the hard stuff. Its not impossible for anyone to get into raiding seriously , its fine if they dont want to but the rest of us shouldnt be punished because people dont want to raid or because they dont want to progress beyond a certain point.

 

Also i hate it when people say they will be catering to 1% that is so ridiculously untrue. Okay so excluding PVP people who have no interest in PVE , your telling me that right now only 1% of the people who play this game are clearing bosses on hard modes?

 

On my server at least 50% of PVE players have quite a few columi pieces, and dont tell me "they were running HM FP's" because they probably where but those are supposed to be "tuned" higher than normal mode operations and i beleive that alot of them are. If i went around the imperial fleet and started inspecting players and disregarded all the PVP players I would see alot of players in Columi and still quite a few in Rakata (meaning they are running HM Ops) so dont give me this 1% crap. Honestly what are these PVE Casuals doing then 3 weeks after they hit 50? They just do normal mode and say "okay thats it for me i guess im done"

 

Also i havent heard any so called casual or anyone at all really say that the operations in this game where too hard at least not anything beyond dealing with bugs.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Samborino

[IIII-IIII-IIII]

Sorry ill make one , gotta appease the ADD generation lol

Ironic because this is primarily the segment that you're long post states has "nothing to do."

Edited February 26, 2012 by IIII-IIII-IIII

[Samborino]

Ironic because this is primarily the segment that you're long post states has "nothing to do."

 

Originally i said hardcore players have nothing to do , i changed it to "PVE players" a few minutes ago. Also i didnt say nothing to do my wording was " have/has something to do" I guess its a glass half full glass half empty kind of thing I chose the former you chose the latter.

 

I wasnt even stating that i was one of those players, i have 6 piece rakata and still need a quite a few pieces from hard modes, but i can see it being a problem for alot of people. Honestly i can see it mainly being a problem for the more casual player. Its so ridiculously easy to get columi that "the more casual" player will be left with nothing to do much quicker than a hardcore player(i need to find another term to describe this type of player as running a hard mode Op twice a week doesnt mean your "hardcore" lol). I got full columi in 2 days of playing 4-5 hours, now suddenly if im a casual and have no interest in harder raids etc I am left with very little to do all of a sudden if my main interest is PVE.

 

Im really just suggestion a better loot system that slows down progression by giving players more options. Have commendation vendors have their own loot, have 16 mans have their own loot and HM FP's as well.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Samborino

[FourTwent]

No you dont understand I never once said they should make normal mode harder it is aimed at casuals, and i think i should change that fromm the "hardcore" players. You dont need to be hardcore to raid, especially in this game. The first time I did EV normal my guild had just formed none of us knew each other , our gear was pretty terrible and we 1 or 2 shot every boss except soa which took us 4 tries. Regardless our guild isnt anything special we dont take raiding to seriously we dont have gear requirements for coming to raids etc.

 

I still think any casual who has any interest in raiding and does a little research on the bosses would have no problem reproducing the exact same results that we had our first night in there, that is too easy, and there is no progression involved with it. Im not asking for it to be infintely harder what im saying is that the operations need a sense of progression, you shouldnt beable to go into a Operation with preraid gear and knock down all the bosses their should be stricter GEAR checks (there is a difference between stricter gear checks and making it harder) so that maybe you need to clear the first 2-3 bosses a few times and get your guild geared up before you can get to the next boss etc.

 

Regardless my main point is that casuals can experience all the content in normal modes and thats fine, leave them easy, hard modes on the other hand are still very easy, none of the mechanics change just more health and more damage. Not to mention they give no incentives for going into nightmare mode or doing 16 mans, beyond it just being an extra challenge most people play MMO's for a sense of character progression, and that shouldnt stop because a few casuals feel cheated because they cant run the hard stuff. Its not impossible for anyone to get into raiding seriously , its fine if they dont want to but the rest of us shouldnt be punished because people dont want to raid or because they dont want to progress beyond a certain point.

 

Also i hate it when people say they will be catering to 1% that is so ridiculously untrue. Okay so excluding PVP people who have no interest in PVE , your telling me that right now only 1% of the people who play this game are clearing bosses on hard modes?

 

On my server at least 50% of PVE players have quite a few columi pieces, and dont tell me "they were running HM FP's" because they probably where but those are supposed to be "tuned" higher than normal mode operations and i beleive that alot of them are. If i went around the imperial fleet and started inspecting players and disregarded all the PVP players I would see alot of players in Columi and still quite a few in Rakata (meaning they are running HM Ops) so dont give me this 1% crap. Honestly what are these PVE Casuals doing then 3 weeks after they hit 50? They just do normal mode and say "okay thats it for me i guess im done"

 

Also i havent heard any so called casual or anyone at all really say that the operations in this game where too hard at least not anything beyond dealing with bugs.

 

Wasn't the reason for the thread because you thought you got gear too quickly? Not specifically the difficulty. . .but time invested?

 

edit - oh, i see i brought difficulty into it XD

 

but it does go both ways, difficulty and time investment are a big gripe from the casual players

Edited February 26, 2012 by FourTwent

[Samborino]

Wasn't the reason for the thread because you thought you got gear too quickly? Not specifically the difficulty. . .but time invested?

 

Sort of, but just slowing down the loot doesnt solve the problem. What point are you trying to make sorry its 7am and I havent slept yet.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Samborino

[IIII-IIII-IIII]

Sort of, but just slowing down the loot doesnt solve the problem

For the record: I agree with you.

 

I stated from the first week (in fact, even in BETA I posted about it) that the leveling/progression was far too easy and would become an issue for those that lack patience.

Edited February 26, 2012 by IIII-IIII-IIII

[Samborino]

Wasn't the reason for the thread because you thought you got gear too quickly? Not specifically the difficulty. . .but time invested?

 

edit - oh, i see i brought difficulty into it XD

 

but it does go both ways, difficulty and time investment are a big gripe from the casual players

 

Yes but your not talking about specificallly for this mmo your talking about for mmo's in general in terms of the gripe from casual players.

 

I read these forums quite often and i have never once heard a "gripe" from a casual player about time investment for gear (in the PVE sense, ive heard it for PVP) or difficulty complaints beyond bugs. (ie. there was a bug that was stopping progression)

[Samborino]

For the record: I agree with you.

 

I stated from the first week (in fact, even in BETA I posted about it) that the leveling/progression was far too easy and would become an issue for those that lack patience.

 

Yea, i honestly have the patience im just hoping they dont use the same system of sharing loot between commendation vendors , HM FP's , And ops. For future raids Op's and dailies. IF they introduce unique loot to each of these it will vastly improve replayability and increase the amount of time it takes to progress.

 

It just makes the developers look lazy as well.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Samborino

[FourTwent]

Sort of, but just slowing down the loot doesnt solve the problem. What point are you trying to make sorry its 7am and I havent slept yet.

 

I made an edit to my preview post. I was the one that brought difficulty into the thread.

 

I'm not saying im a casual player, nor am I a hardcore player. I'm just someone with an open mind presenting you the argument from the side of the casual players.

 

Make the content too hard or the gear too much of a grind, and you piss off the casual players. . .make it too easy and you piss off the hardcore players.

 

As an investor in a game, which would you prefer to make the game for?

 

I have faith in Bioware though, maybe blind faith, but I will give them the opportunity and see how they deal with the 'issue' If it bites me in the *** then I'll learn. . .but so far I've been very happy with how Bioware has done the game(at least in comparison to the last MMO i played).

 

btw - I play pvp almost exclusively, so I can't comment on whether or not I think it's too easy or you get the gear too quickly. I've only done a few HM flashpoints. . .and even less normal most flash points(but my last MMO was pve only, so I feel I do have a grasp on what is or isn't too hard/too long of a grind). I kinda look at it as im saving the content for later since I'm having so much fun doing the pvp/leveling content.

[FourTwent]

I read these forums quite often and i have never once heard a "gripe" from a casual player about time investment for gear (in the PVE sense, ive heard it for PVP) or difficulty complaints beyond bugs. (ie. there was a bug that was stopping progression)

 

as do I. and you're correct. . .but you do hear the complaints from the hardcore players saying it's too easy and doesn't take enough time invested

Edited February 26, 2012 by FourTwent

[Fendril_Tharkun]

sorry but the end content is not great, nice try but seriously ... NO.

[Jett-Rinn]

Translation: Design for the lowest possible denominator or people will quit .

 

Translation: Make it harder so I can whine it still isn't hard enough or I'll go home.

 

I think think SW has proved that incorrect as people are leaving this game in droves.

 

People like you keep saying that; yet Bioware, PC Gamer G4, Gamsutra and the Escapist tell us that the game is still growing.

 

Hard-cores may be leaving in droves but this isn't a hardcore game, for every one that leaves two people who are sick of the whole Raid or die gestalt takes their place; and now that GW2 is proving to be unbelievably brutal even in the leveling game guess where a huge contingent of players will stay?

 

 

The genre is changing there are many types of MO's for many types of players; deal with it.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Jett-Rinn

[Samborino]

as do I. and you're correct. . .but you do hear the complaints from the hardcore players saying it's too easy and doesn't take enough time invested

 

Exactly so there has to be a middle ground where it doesnt piss off the players more invested in raids (im trying to refrain from using the term hard core, as in this game i dont think a player needs to be "hardcore" to be clearing 8 man hard modes) and can still keep the casuals happy. It would be perfectly fine to keep normal mode the way it is but with better gear progression, and then amp up the difficulty of hard mode with the same better gear progression. I dont think any casual will be pissed off about a better gear progression system, sure people are happy when they get gear but unhappy when they feel like they have progressed as far as they can go. Which is the case at the moment and people dont realise that part of the problem is that the gear progression is too quick.

[Samborino]

Honestly it just seems silly for BW not to add more gear to increase replayability , it just seems so obvious. It gives more choice aesthetically to the player, it effectively doubles triples or quadruples the content depending on how much new gear they implement without the need for having to hastily make new raid content because people are blowing through it too fast. It really seems like a no brainer. I really hope that they where just rushed to release and this resulted in poor end game gear implementation for PVE, they know it was a mistake and future raids will have a model that is more on par with MMO standards.

 

Sure raiding is fun regardless, but it becomes a whole lot less fun when character progression is taken out of the equation because they diluted the gear by allowing you to get the same gear from so many different places. Im all for having multiple methods of obtaining PVE gear beyond raiding, just make each of these methods have unique gear so players can enjoy all of them as well as having a sense of character progression.

 

It just makes them seem lazy when everything you do in PVE results in the same gear and there are just multiple ways to get it. For instance hard modes Op's drop columi commendations which are going to be mostly useless for a plaayer doing hard mode operations as they will have already run hard mode flashpoints (which result in the same gear from the last bosses) as well as normal mode operations which also results in the same gear. Tionese commendations are also completely useless, most people run hard mode operations first regardless of the fact that they are tuned higher than normal mode op's , I like the fact that hard mode operations are tuned higher but i also think they should offer their own loot as well as possibly commendations for a vendor that offers unique loot, not loot that you can get in 5 other places.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Samborino

[Samborino]

The post took longer to read than to clear nightmare modes.

 

Im sorry its difficult it explain it in 1 paragraph ><. I cant tell if your saying my post was really long or that nightmare mods are shorth though.

 

Or both lol

[genesiser]

I think the names they chose for the raid difficulty is what's got them in trouble.

 

"Normal" mode difficulty is like wow's looking for raid difficulty. In other words, easily puggable and basically, easy. Normal mode should have been called easy mode or something along those lines.

 

"Hard" mode difficulty is like wow's normal raid difficulty. In other words, not so easily puggable unless the players out gear the content. With regular HM flash point gear or "normal" mode raid gear you need to have somewhat competent players to complete it. Hard mode should have been called normal mode.

 

"Nightmare Mode" is supposed to be wow heroic raid equivalent, but it's not. Maybe later down the line they'll make nightmare mode actually a nightmare to complete. They can keep the name nightmare mode, but they should up the difficulty quite a bit. (and also give nightmare mode raids better gear than hard mode raids. Having a higher tier of raid difficulty with no higher quality drops is just bad design)

 

Anyway, by having normal mode be really easy but called normal it gives people a sense that they have completed something that should be considered somewhat difficult for the first time. However with it being easy and meant to be easy, they should have actually called it easy so people wouldn't get this false sense of accomplishment like they beat a super hard instance.

Edited February 28, 2012 by genesiser

[Maoxx]

Alot of the problem is they throw gear at you from too many places. You can get your 4 pc from Columi from HM FP without looking at OPs. When you do normal mode OPs there is that chance that you can win gear from every single boss. I know this because the loot system loves me in Normal mode. So basically they made Tionese gear utterly redundant.....sure you can get it, but by the time you saved up enough for one piece you prolly had the Columi version...(before the changes to commendations, admittedly they did help with this with the changes in one of the patches)

 

So basically what should have happened is simply put.

 

HM FPs - Drop level 50 non set loot thats just under stat wise to Tionese, with the last boss dropping a Tionese Piece

 

Normal Ops - Tionese all the way

 

Hard Mode - Columi

 

Nightmare - Rakata

 

That I think would have solved some of the gear progression problems and also give the guys busting their butt at Nightmare modes a real reason to keep at it.

[Samborino]

Alot of the problem is they throw gear at you from too many places. You can get your 4 pc from Columi from HM FP without looking at OPs. When you do normal mode OPs there is that chance that you can win gear from every single boss. I know this because the loot system loves me in Normal mode. So basically they made Tionese gear utterly redundant.....sure you can get it, but by the time you saved up enough for one piece you prolly had the Columi version...(before the changes to commendations, admittedly they did help with this with the changes in one of the patches)

 

So basically what should have happened is simply put.

 

HM FPs - Drop level 50 non set loot thats just under stat wise to Tionese, with the last boss dropping a Tionese Piece

 

Normal Ops - Tionese all the way

 

Hard Mode - Columi

 

Nightmare - Rakata

 

That I think would have solved some of the gear progression problems and also give the guys busting their butt at Nightmare modes a real reason to keep at it.

Agreed but i think they still need to give 16 mans their own loot table as well, it doesnt have to be a whole lot better or anything, just different. They also need to step away from only designing sets of gear, they need to make unique pieces of gear with low drop rates etc.

 

I agree though the loot system you said would have made alot more sense, they just need to add worthwhile gear beyond tier gear, I know that they are making set bonus's transferrable to orange gear next patch, but that shouldnt excuse them from making a decent amount of end game PVE gear.

[BoomstarPrime]

I think the names they chose for the raid difficulty is what's got them in trouble.

 

"Normal" mode difficulty is like wow's looking for raid difficulty. In other words, easily puggable and basically, easy. Normal mode should have been called easy mode or something along those lines.

 

"Hard" mode difficulty is like wow's normal raid difficulty. In other words, not so easily puggable unless the players out gear the content. With regular HM flash point gear or "normal" mode raid gear you need to have somewhat competent players to complete it. Hard mode should have been called normal mode.

 

"Nightmare Mode" is supposed to be wow heroic raid equivalent, but it's not. Maybe later down the line they'll make nightmare mode actually a nightmare to complete. They can keep the name nightmare mode, but they should up the difficulty quite a bit. (and also give nightmare mode raids better gear than hard mode raids. Having a higher tier of raid difficulty with no higher quality drops is just bad design)

 

Anyway, by having normal mode be really easy but called normal it gives people a sense that they have completed something that should be considered somewhat difficult for the first time. However with it being easy and meant to be easy, they should have actually called it easy so people wouldn't get this false sense of accomplishment like they beat a super hard instance.

 

Agree with this post entirely.

[Samborino]

I think the names they chose for the raid difficulty is what's got them in trouble.

 

"Normal" mode difficulty is like wow's looking for raid difficulty. In other words, easily puggable and basically, easy. Normal mode should have been called easy mode or something along those lines.

 

"Hard" mode difficulty is like wow's normal raid difficulty. In other words, not so easily puggable unless the players out gear the content. With regular HM flash point gear or "normal" mode raid gear you need to have somewhat competent players to complete it. Hard mode should have been called normal mode.

 

"Nightmare Mode" is supposed to be wow heroic raid equivalent, but it's not. Maybe later down the line they'll make nightmare mode actually a nightmare to complete. They can keep the name nightmare mode, but they should up the difficulty quite a bit. (and also give nightmare mode raids better gear than hard mode raids. Having a higher tier of raid difficulty with no higher quality drops is just bad design)

 

Anyway, by having normal mode be really easy but called normal it gives people a sense that they have completed something that should be considered somewhat difficult for the first time. However with it being easy and meant to be easy, they should have actually called it easy so people wouldn't get this false sense of accomplishment like they beat a super hard instance.

 

Agreed if we took your views on difficulty and combined it with the poster below you's views on gear it would help immensly. That is a fairly simple step, the next thing would be to at least add a new loot table to either 16 man raids or possibly to nightmare mode, even just doing one of those things would help make progression a longer process.

 

I really enjoy doing hard mode FP's for instance, it would be great if HM FP's dropped commendations for gear that didnt already drop in HM FP's or that didnt already drop from normal mode OPs. They just need to add more gear period. I like the new idea of orange items being viable again in the next patch but i think it poses a few problems.

 

End game progression in PVE in most mmo's (including this one) happens solely through gear, if they just make it about mods (that have nothing unique about them) to stick into existing armor that is already in the game , it takes away alot of that progression. Ill explain why, orange gear at the moment has nothing rare about it really there is no "rare drop" orange gear that you can get off of high level bosses that are a challenge or anything. Mods on the other hand have nothing unique about them, they dont make your gear look any different they are just stats to put into something, by taking this away there is a disconnect in gear progression. You put mods that arent unique into gear that isnt a challenge to get, and that is going to be a problem IMO.They need to add rare drops, unique armor , weapons , relics that arent part of sets (there isnt any armor drops in end game PVE that arent part of a set, there is essentially 4 sets at the moment, tier gear, exotech, xenotech, energized. That is unnacceptable in my opinnion)

[Samborino]

Agree with this post entirely.

 

Yep it is certainly part of the problem.