I'm very disappointed with Republic

[Maaruin]

When it comes to that Ortolan quest on Hoth:

 

 

Both the Empire and pirates use the Ortolan's facility for their energy needs, and instead of trying to take it over, the Republic local leadership apparently thinks it's more efficient to just blow it up. No forces needed to left to defend it against a takeover.

 

I quite enjoyed the quest with my SI as I could take a moral high ground in a conversation with Republic NPC during the mission, asking him did he join the military so that he could point guns at Ortolans and such, and eventually agreeing to leave the facility back to Ortolans when the Empire would leave the planet. The Ortolan Doren Tai talked how the "Republic was crusading" and how their actions are exactly against what the Republic supposedly stands for.

 

Thank you. Yes, such things happen, even in the military of more democratic states then the Republic.

 

I would still say:

 

 

 

1. This would cause trouble in the Senate. The responsibles would have to go to hearing to justify their actions befor the Senate and if it would be made public, maybe some protests would occure on the streets of Coruscant. Maybe there would be no consequences for them, but at least some mechanisms are there which are supposed to stop it.

 

2. If the facility supported the Republic, the Empire wouldn't wait a second to blow it up.

 

Edited February 27, 2012 by Maaruin

[Assaultrooper]

Thank you. Yes, such things happen, even in the military of more democratic states then the Republic.

 

I would still say:

 

 

 

1. This would cause trouble in the Senate. The responsibles would have to go to hearing to justify their actions befor the Senate and if it would be made public, maybe some protests would occure on the streets of Coruscant. Maybe there would be no consequences for them, but at least some mechanisms are there which are supposed to stop it.

 

2. If the facility supported the Republic, the Empire wouldn't wait a second to blow it up.

 

there again you are assuming there are such things as "hearings" or "Court Martials" for officers/Generals. While the Jedi do have such a system, I do not recall a single case of this been ever referenced, or done to republic personnel.

 

 

The Only reference to "Court Martial" is about the trooper refusing to follow orders, as far as I know.

 

 

I would thing this would be handled the "old roman republican" way. If you it is a success you are fine, if it isn't and you are not dead, then you get another go at it.

[Aloro]

Jedi Consular class story. Bad. Very illogical, emotional. Jedi who are constantly preaching serenity and logic above emotion, sending their only weapon against Sith Plague out there to shield some Jedi Masters. Despite a BIG warning that every shielding takes away part of Jedi strength, they send him to shield Jedi Masters around galaxy. Instead of finding Plaguemaster and destroying him. No, this is not logic, this is emotion. And a stupid one. I'd expect such foolishness from Sith, not from Jedi.

 

Look, there are JEDI MASTERS out there, going insane and wreaking havoc. That's really, really, REALLY bad for the Jedi. Of course that's a top priority. With no leads on the guy causing the plague, yes, it really does make sense to have someone running around trying to protect the Jedi Masters while tracking down clues.

[Maaruin]

there again you are assuming there are such things as "hearings" or "Court Martials" for officers/Generals. While the Jedi do have such a system, I do not recall a single case of this been ever referenced, or done to republic personnel.

 

 

The Only reference to "Court Martial" is about the trooper refusing to follow orders, as far as I know.

 

 

I would thing this would be handled the "old roman republican" way. If you it is a success you are fine, if it isn't and you are not dead, then you get another go at it.

 

There are, at least for the trooper, a special forces officer:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksxMP6MCnAo

 

(I think this is the second and there is one earlier in the story.)

 

Edit: found it

around 13:40 Edited February 27, 2012 by Maaruin

[Mugo]

Personally, and I'm in no way suggesting that I speak for anyone else in this, I just find the premodern concept of political systems based on personal loyalties to be more appealing than modern systems predicated on bureaucratic authority and bland impersonal, institutional loyalties or rabid individualism. Both have drawbacks but, like Tolkien as he got older, I'd probably prefer real monarchy or community-oriented forms of anarchy to the insipid pretensions of the modern "democratic" state. Within the SW universe, I see certain Imperial ideals and institutions being closer to my druthers than the Republic's ideals and institutions.

 

Why bore you with this? Because people can be a little reactionary or complicated in their tastes and reasoning without being a "terrible person" or a fascist, or at least those you don't agree with oughtn't be brushed off that way as you try to. All good-natured, here, mind you, it is after all just a game.

 

P.S. - I think sometimes of the young Imperials in the Legacy of the Force book series who grumble that if there had been an Empire rather than the New Republic, the Vong could've been dealt with more easily. Impossible to prove or disprove, but it's possible they have a point. A strong Empire could offer more security than a confederation, regardless of quality-of-life issues.

 

This. I think that miss-usage of given votes in democratic society from politicians, which is so nicely presented in SWTOR Republic, is the main reason why people these days don't trust politicians anymore. Democracy is marked with constant battle for power and that's all there is.... For this, politicians do as less as possible.

 

On the other hand, liege needed to take care of his property and people. Without his people, peasants, slaves, he was a big ZERO. And he was doing everything to protect what he owns.

 

I think there are some nice and clear analogies between this and SW universe. At least as it's presented in SWTOR.

[CatoFel]

This. I think that miss-usage of given votes in democratic society from politicians, which is so nicely presented in SWTOR Republic, is the main reason why people these days don't trust politicians anymore. Democracy is marked with constant battle for power and that's all there is.... For this, politicians do as less as possible.

 

On the other hand, liege needed to take care of his property and people. Without his people, peasants, slaves, he was a big ZERO. And he was doing everything to protect what he owns.

 

I think there are some nice and clear analogies between this and SW universe. At least as it's presented in SWTOR.

 

Whew. I'm not the only one who was thinking this after all!

[SalsaDMA]

In advance: I'm sorry, I haven't played until the end of the storyline yet. So you have to explain a little bit.

 

Sorry, I'm not on Belsavis yet. It is a prison, right? (Are you implying being prisoner of the Empire is better then beeing prisoner of the republic on Belsavis?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Belsavis has several bad things going for it.

 

To start with, it houses not only actual criminals, but also people that are purely political prisoners. One of the empire missions you free prisoners to try and stir up some havoc for the republics there, and you get the choice of freeing the violent criminals, or the intellectual ones that are more prone to organizing protests and such. The republic having a sizable amount of that kind of prisoners doesn't bode well for its 'freedom' of thought.

 

Second off, there are people treated as prisoners and 'scum' on the planet purely based on who gave birth to them. There are references to 2nd and 3rd generation prisoners, indicating that once you get dumped into Belsavis, you aren't allowed to leave again, nor are your children if you get any while there.

 

3rdly, "Project Noble focus" I think it was called. Basicly the republic had different groups of prisoners slaughter each other while they were collecting data on the results and generally experimenting on the prisoners to achieve data about alien physioligies and what they are capable of resisting to increase their combat effectiveness when planning assaults on alien worlds.

 

Basicly, any 'moral good person' should get a quesy feeling in his/her stomach after having done that planet for the republic about what went down there in the past.

 

 

 

The republic is just as evil as the empire, sometimes more so. The difference is that the republic hides their evil with lies, while the empire just doesn't care about the moral distinctions as long as it is effective.

[Aloro]

The republic is just as evil as the empire, sometimes more so. The difference is that the republic hides their evil with lies, while the empire just doesn't care about the moral distinctions as long as it is effective.

 

Well, yes and no. There are most definitely nice people in the Empire and bad people in the Republic. Leaders on both sides do commit war crimes sometimes. On the other hand, the Empire will almost always do so, while the Republic very rarely does, so a meaningful difference remains.

 

Look at it this way: if the experiments on Belsavis got out, the Republic wouldn't support them. Dirty little secrets like that have to remain secrets in the Republic, else they'd be ended. In the Empire... meh, whatever. You want to have pit fights with alien prisoners? Whatever. You could tell the Dark Council you're doing that and they'd shrug, unless of course one of them cared or had some way to profit.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Aloro

[Maaruin]

 

Belsavis has several bad things going for it.

 

To start with, it houses not only actual criminals, but also people that are purely political prisoners. One of the empire missions you free prisoners to try and stir up some havoc for the republics there, and you get the choice of freeing the violent criminals, or the intellectual ones that are more prone to organizing protests and such. The republic having a sizable amount of that kind of prisoners doesn't bode well for its 'freedom' of thought.

 

Second off, there are people treated as prisoners and 'scum' on the planet purely based on who gave birth to them. There are references to 2nd and 3rd generation prisoners, indicating that once you get dumped into Belsavis, you aren't allowed to leave again, nor are your children if you get any while there.

 

3rdly, "Project Noble focus" I think it was called. Basicly the republic had different groups of prisoners slaughter each other while they were collecting data on the results and generally experimenting on the prisoners to achieve data about alien physioligies and what they are capable of resisting to increase their combat effectiveness when planning assaults on alien worlds.

 

Basicly, any 'moral good person' should get a quesy feeling in his/her stomach after having done that planet for the republic about what went down there in the past.

 

 

 

The republic is just as evil as the empire, sometimes more so. The difference is that the republic hides their evil with lies, while the empire just doesn't care about the moral distinctions as long as it is effective.

 

You got some points.

I still don't agree with "as evil as the empire and sometimes more so".

 

It seems more like: The republic, afaik the republic military (how many senators know about Belsavis?), has one secret planet were it does what is daily life in the Empire.

 

What exists on Belsavis (summery)

 

1. Political prisoners

 

2. Slavery

 

3. Experiments with prisoners

 

 

also exists in the empire in larger scale.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Maaruin

[GoggleBoi]

Your points are well taken, but technically a republic is a form of government with a head of state that is (periodically) elected, as opposed to a monarchy where the head of state is appointed for life based on parentage.

 

I completely agree. I didn't go into specifics, as I didn't think it was necessary. My point, as you elaborated on, is that a republic can be democratic, but it is not, by definition democratic. The Old Republic is not a democracy. Rome was a Republic but was not, by any stretch of the imagination, a Democracy, or a Democratic Republic.

[GoggleBoi]

The Jedi order does NOT at all rule anything. If, the are servants of the republic. If they serve in an official capability "Jedi General" or work in the Republics name, they do so by mandate of the Republic.

 

Incorrect; These is pre-Rusaan Reformation, which means any Jedi was capable of running for political office. In fact, many Chancellors were Jedi. There were some rulers who were Jedi. For some reason, and I am very disappointed by it, BW decided to make the Jedi in their game reflective of the post-Ruusan, prequel-era type. IE, monastic hermits. Jedi of this time are not forbidden marriage and children, nor are they forbidden love, possession, tittles, etc. They are taught that balance should be at the centre of all they do, have and think.

 

At several points in the Republic's history, the Jedi have, in fact, as an Order ruled the Republic, until such time as the Order felt that the people could be trusted to rule justly. The Jedi are the Guardians of the Republic, not its servants. They serve the Force, and that is all.

[Meharial]

And others knew he was lying through his teeth and went along anyways because the lies benefited them.

 

 

 

Not really. Darth malgus wants to make it into a meritocracy, but it isn't one now. If you had a non-force sensitive who was more skilled than a sith, the sith would still out rank him simply because he was sith. Quinn's companion arc is about multiple instances where the incompetent retained power while sending the competent out to their ends.

 

 

 

Sith killing Sith is only frowned upon when it is done out in the open with no subterfuge and plenty of witnesses(unless you are the Emperor's Wrath).

 

As far as I remember from the quest there were those that believed, those that didn't and were being blackmailed, those opposed and those that didn't want to stick their necks out in case they were wrong.

 

I also addressed the automatic sith > non-sith as a flaw of the Empire's meritocracy. It IS one, just with exemptions. If it wasn't one, there would be no such thing as a Moff being able to order or argue with Darths. But they can and do.

 

And Sith killing Sith is frowned upon everywhere. The punishment for such gets waived only in the upper echolons of Sith society where the Sith in question probably has a powerbase that can dissolve the consequences. Darth Skotia's death and following investigation has shades of this.

[Khayleth]

Level a trooper. It gives you a good look at how the military/government is run, it's pretty bad all over the place. Especially when you get to belsavis, what the trooper learns and does there is really messed up.

 

Having level a sith warrior, agent, and soon a trooper to 50 you really get a good look at what's going on behind the scenes and it's not pretty on either side.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Khayleth

[TheNevet]

Iwhat op said

 

Sorry, but I didn't read all 7 pages of this thread. But to OP... oh hell, why am i bothering? he probably quit already... bugger

 

the consular story is meant to be the kinda detective/ninja/spookybadguy story.

 

It's not the superhero story cause that's Jedi Knight. Get it?

 

translation: if you like batman, be a consular. if you like superman and spiderman, be a jedi knight.

Edited February 28, 2012 by TheNevet

[MGriffith]

I believe u sire are confusing "democratically" with simple consensus. When you speak of democracy you are talking of how much "the people" are involved in the process. Just to follow we can't say sparta was a democracy nor that it "democratically vote" on legislatours. Yet they did have a council of elders that decided evrything.

 

If senators are elected by popular vote then, yes, it is a democracy. Just a representational one instead of a direct one. (for your information, all western democracies are representational ones).

 

And Athens, held up as the shining beacon of democracy was actually nothing of the sort. They restricted 'demos' to the independently wealthy men of their city state. (Slaves? Sorry, they were cattle. Women? Sorry, they were considered incapable of rational thought. Farmers or craftsmen? Sorry, too busy to be able to spend enough time in deliberation of politics).

Edited February 28, 2012 by MGriffith

[maxetius]

the Republic is in fact a Confederation. its basically a more advanced form of Feudalism.

[RemyDMartin]

 

Jedi Consular class story. Bad. Very illogical, emotional. Jedi who are constantly preaching serenity and logic above emotion, sending their only weapon against Sith Plague out there to shield some Jedi Masters. Despite a BIG warning that every shielding takes away part of Jedi strength, they send him to shield Jedi Masters around galaxy. Instead of finding Plaguemaster and destroying him. No, this is not logic, this is emotion. And a stupid one. I'd expect such foolishness from Sith, not from Jedi.

 

Here is my take on this, the truth is early on they (other Jedi Masters / Council) explain how the best way to grow as a jedi of your caliber is by none other than experience. Especially on Coruscant where truly it is a mission of respect and loyalty for your master. Compassion for her illness, I found myself thinking of a friend who struggled with schizophrenia but in the case of the counselors master a chance at curing said illness.

 

It has already been stated also, that in fact these jedi masters you are sent to cure must be cured for they are currently destroying the very progress of the entire republic.

in the case of taris, he was going to level an entire planet which sole purpose was to show the Republics goals and purpose of rebuilding that which the empire has destroyed throughout history

which i believe (only on Nar Shaddaa at the moment) is the actual goal of this plague master aside from the fact he gains strength with every infected jedi.

 

and finally think of Anikin ... yes, he ended up corrupted and converted

eventually redeeming himself thru killing Palpatine number one

however what if he had never been allowed to leave the padawan training grounds because he was "the one" the jedi counsels prophesied chosen savior against a hidden evil...really, i kind of see a connection here to the counselor story haha.

 

But finally I must say in my humble opinion the counselor must be pretty *********** bad *** considering he not only is taking down jedi masters but at the same time weakening himself yet still completing missions thus...thinking progress as expected come killing the plague imagine the amount of strength he/she will gain!!!

[CatoFel]

If senators are elected by popular vote then, yes, it is a democracy. Just a representational one instead of a direct one. (for your information, all western democracies are representational ones).

 

Apologies if I misread you, and I'm not necessarily disputing everything you're saying, but just for the sake of clarification, many if not most Republic Senators, and perhaps all, are NOT popularly elected to my knowledge. The more or less sovereign leaders of a member state tend to appoint the Senator, I believe, who's more like a UN ambassador in that regard.

[tobarstep]

What I wouldn't give for a Firefly or Fallout MMO. Something where my loyalties are to myself and my family/friends; not to abstractions like states and hokey religions.

[Baptes]

I'm not hugely into RP or anything, but the Jedi Consular story makes zero sense from a practical point of view.

 

 

Yes, yes these Jedi Masters must be saved. But you are risking the sole person capable of curing (sorta) these Jedi to the inumerous hazards of the galaxy for no real reason other than "it'll do the whipper snapper some good to bleed a bit" kinda thinking. It is completely illogical.

 

Logical would be to send some Jedi Knights (Supermen) off to hit those Masters over the head and drag them back by their hair caveman style like the Superhero they are.

 

Bringing them to a secure location as deep inside of Tython as you could burrow where the Consular would "cure" them and have the oportunity to train other Consulars in the technique while they wait for the next Knight to come back with a trophy.

 

 

Now that's logical. Sure not as exciting as getting swamped by 'gouls, or killing yet another critter bent on your destruction (hazardous much?), but it would make sense.

[Sinemetu]

My take: The Sith are evil as a rule. The Empire is amoral and makes no bones about it. The Jedi aspire to goodness but aren't. The Republic maintains a pretense of being benevolent but isn't.

 

What I enjoy about the writing on the Imperial side is that nobility and altruism are unexpected. I find that refreshingly honest, and I had a lot of fun on my agent finding the times when I could do what's best for the empire and still find a way to do what's right.

 

On the Republic side, the expectation is the opposite. If you are NOT altruistic and noble and self-sacrificing, people get upset. The Republic and the Jedi both spend a lot of time trying to preserve their image. Additionally, I find a lot of Jedi ideals morally suspect: denying excessive emotion and attachments, and then turning around and talking about being guided by your feelings and/or the Force. Who ever said that the Force's goals (if it can be said to have goals) are in line with what I would consider good?

 

The Sith, while they use their feelings to fuel their strength, rarely talk about being guided by the Force to do anything. I think a few Sith such as Revan and the one in the Dark Temple whose teachings you can take or destroy were really on to something. IMO, both the Jedi and the Sith are wrong in their philosophies, but at least the Sith code isn't a pack of lies and/or wishful thinking.

[CatoFel]

Sinemetu, I concur wholeheartedly. I'd say that's an excellent synopsis.

[Meharial]

I'm not hugely into RP or anything, but the Jedi Consular story makes zero sense from a practical point of view.

 

 

Yes, yes these Jedi Masters must be saved. But you are risking the sole person capable of curing (sorta) these Jedi to the inumerous hazards of the galaxy for no real reason other than "it'll do the whipper snapper some good to bleed a bit" kinda thinking. It is completely illogical.

 

Logical would be to send some Jedi Knights (Supermen) off to hit those Masters over the head and drag them back by their hair caveman style like the Superhero they are.

 

Bringing them to a secure location as deep inside of Tython as you could burrow where the Consular would "cure" them and have the oportunity to train other Consulars in the technique while they wait for the next Knight to come back with a trophy.

 

 

Now that's logical. Sure not as exciting as getting swamped by 'gouls, or killing yet another critter bent on your destruction (hazardous much?), but it would make sense.

 

You guys seem to be forgetting that

Master Syo Bakarn on the Council is the First Son of the Sith Emperor

and the whole JC story line is about Sith being able to influence the thoughts of Jedi virtually undetected until they start going crazy. Many of the masters on the Council (i.e voices of reason) are occupied/corrupted/dead/dying during the story lines. Is it any surprise that the decisions of the remaining three are suspect?

[mecher]

So many clueless posters.

[CatoFel]

So many clueless posters.

 

Your insight, wit, and constructive contribution hath astounded me.

 

(Seriously, it's just hard to know what you're getting at if that's all you're going to say. Seems like a why-bother post.)

Edited March 3, 2012 by CatoFel