I'm very disappointed with Republic

[Mugo]

I'm not sure if I should consider lucky or unlucky fact that I started playing this game with IA.

 

Republic. Senate. Full of corrupted and dirty politicians who are taking care only to satisfy their own interest. They don't care about "Republic". In fact, some of them would probably sell Republic to Sith Empire right away. They fight each other.

 

On the other hand Sith Empire is feudalistic state. Ruled and governed by Sith, who take on eachother, but Empire remains their true allegiance. All they do, they do in the name of Empire and their Emperor, whoever this guy is!?

 

This makes Empire at least one step better than Republic.

 

Jedi Consular class story. Bad. Very illogical, emotional. Jedi who are constantly preaching serenity and logic above emotion, sending their only weapon against Sith Plague out there to shield some Jedi Masters. Despite a BIG warning that every shielding takes away part of Jedi strength, they send him to shield Jedi Masters around galaxy. Instead of finding Plaguemaster and destroying him. No, this is not logic, this is emotion. And a stupid one. I'd expect such foolishness from Sith, not from Jedi.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Mugo

[Dragonemperor]

Jedi Consular class story. Bad. Very illogical, emotional. Jedi who are constantly preaching serenity and logic above emotion, sending their only weapon against Sith Plague out there to shield some Jedi Masters. Despite a BIG warning that every shielding takes away part of Jedi strength, they send him to shield Jedi Masters around galaxy. Instead of finding Plaguemaster and destroying him. No, this is not logic, this is emotion. And a stupid one. I'd expect such foolishness from Sith, not from Jedi.

 

It's not that illogical as the only leads they have as to Vivicar's whereabouts are his victim. Plus what is the point in a weapon if you don't use it for its purpose, not sending the counslar to shield people 'cause it weakens him is the same as not using a gun 'cause you'll run out of bullets. And how would it be more Jedi-like to put destroying the plaguemaster before saving his victims?

[Ranadiel_Marius]

I think you are being far too harsh on the Senators and way too generous with the Sith. The Sith care more about their personal power than they do the Empire with perhaps a few exceptions. Infighting is supposed to be one of the weaknesses of the Empire. Heck I can think of multiple instances where Darth Baras sabotaged the plans of other Sith, which would have benefited the Empire, just so he could advance his own plans.

 

Jedi Consular class story. Bad. Very illogical, emotional. Jedi who are constantly preaching serenity and logic above emotion, sending their only weapon against Sith Plague out there to shield some Jedi Masters. Despite a BIG warning that every shielding takes away part of Jedi strength, they send him to shield Jedi Masters around galaxy. Instead of finding Plaguemaster and destroying him. No, this is not logic, this is emotion. And a stupid one. I'd expect such foolishness from Sith, not from Jedi.

O.o So they should sit on their hands while the plague results in the deaths of countless innocents and completely destroys the delicate relations between the Republic and several worlds. All so they can save the person, who can save the plague victims, to fight a person they don't know the identity of. Nevermind the fact that the plague victims are the only clues the Jedi have as to Vivicar's identity, and nevermind that the previous plaguemaster was not killed by the Jedi with the shielding technique(since that Jedi had already fallen) meaning there was no need for the JC to be the one to face him.

[tobarstep]

Republic. Senate. Full of corrupted and dirty politicians who are taking care only to satisfy their own interest. They don't care about "Republic". In fact, some of them would probably sell Republic to Sith Empire right away. They fight each other.

 

On the other hand Sith Empire is feudalistic state. Ruled and governed by Sith, who take on eachother, but Empire remains their true allegiance. All they do, they do in the name of Empire and their Emperor, whoever this guy is!?

 

This makes Empire at least one step better than Republic.

 

I find it odd that you consider blind loyalty to a government as being "good" or "better" somehow.

 

The problem with the Senate and really all politicians in the TOR world or the real world, is that they are loyal to an institution and not to actual people. The Republic, in a socio-political sense, is itself an empire. They're fighting against multiple wars of secession across their space and are mainly concerned with preserving "the republic" and expanding Republican influence. Just look at Ord Mantell, the Trooper and Smuggler starting world. Regardless of whether the separatists are getting Imperial funding, the Republic is fighting them 'till the end because... why? They're not allowed to be independent? And the whole Trooper story on Ord Mantell revolves around

this orbital strike bomb that was stolen off a republic transport that can obliterate an entire city (think nuclear). What the heck was the republic planning on doing with this thing on Ord Mantell anyway? "Hey, separatists! You don't want independence, you want to be a part of the Republic! You know, the same one that just leveled an entire city slaughtering thousands of your friends and neighbors!".

 

[Assaultrooper]

I completely see where the OP is coming from... I made a trooper and was just disgusted, by the amount corruption (and not "good" efficiency corruption, but extortion and lawlessness. I mean

 

 

A refugee racing track full of mines?? are you serious!?

 

 

I'll be honest despite what most of you feel, I often feel the empire has the righteous cause here... Not only is there struggle based in Justice, (Revenge you might think) for their lost empire, but also... You have the power in the decisions of the empire. The empire is as much you as you are part of the empire. You may grant an honourable death to a sith lord or make him squeal like a girl, but you are not tied to the whim of no one.

 

While atleast in my trooper quite un-surprisingly I was the policeman of the galaxy fixing, or not the various and many problems of the republic.

 

Things get alot more blurry when you realize the senators are not democratically elected (They are rather appointed), making the republic not a "democracy"....

[LystAP]

Things get alot more blurry when you realize the senators are not democratically elected (They are rather appointed), making the republic not a "democracy"....

 

It makes sense though, considering the makeup of the Republic which consists of a wide variety of governments. Some governments appoint through choice, others can be elected. The Senator for Coruscant is elected if I remember; while the ones in history from Alderaan a monarchy, were appointed.

 

However, the system at hand is kind of like the Sith, where Dark Lords and Darths are appointed, if not "elected" by the support of other Sith and the size of their power base.

 

If anything, the Sith are a democracy within an empire; those on the Dark Council stay on the Council by building alliances with other council members and keeping their power base happy, if not at least submissive through both true or false promises. Those who isolate themselves intentionally or otherwise are ripe to be "replaced."

 

I have always thought that one of the reasons Palpatine stayed undercover without being detected for so long, and become the Supreme Chancellor right under the noise of the Jedi was that he didn't need to use the Force at all to get to where he was, Sith principles were strangely compatible with success in a real in practice democracy. Just having the mentality and manipulative skills of a successful Darth was enough to put himself ahead of most Senators.

Edited February 25, 2012 by LystAP

[CatoFel]

I find it odd that you consider blind loyalty to a government as being "good" or "better" somehow.

 

The problem with the Senate and really all politicians in the TOR world or the real world, is that they are loyal to an institution and not to actual people. The Republic, in a socio-political sense, is itself an empire. They're fighting against multiple wars of secession across their space and are mainly concerned with preserving "the republic" and expanding Republican influence. Just look at Ord Mantell, the Trooper and Smuggler starting world. Regardless of whether the separatists are getting Imperial funding, the Republic is fighting them 'till the end because... why? They're not allowed to be independent?

 

Well said, exactly my take on the whole mess. There's a fair amount of this Weberian loyalty-to-institutions-not-people on the Sith side, too, but less so than the Republic. We founded our guild based on the personal-loyalty principle for this very reason.

[tobarstep]

Well said, exactly my take on the whole mess. There's a fair amount of this Weberian loyalty-to-institutions-not-people on the Sith side, too, but less so than the Republic. We founded our guild based on the personal-loyalty principle for this very reason.

 

I may have to roll on your server and check things out. Though I am becoming disillusioned with the game overall (as someone who wanted to RP in the game) for various reasons that are in large part philosophical and to a lesser extent anthropological ( though I understand the inherent contradiction in attempting to apply anthropology to alien species ).

[Revan-the-knight]

I completely see where the OP is coming from... I made a trooper and was just disgusted, by the amount corruption (and not "good" efficiency corruption, but extortion and lawlessness. I mean

 

 

A refugee racing track full of mines?? are you serious!?

 

 

I'll be honest despite what most of you feel, I often feel the empire has the righteous cause here... Not only is there struggle based in Justice, (Revenge you might think) for their lost empire, but also... You have the power in the decisions of the empire. The empire is as much you as you are part of the empire. You may grant an honourable death to a sith lord or make him squeal like a girl, but you are not tied to the whim of no one.

 

While atleast in my trooper quite un-surprisingly I was the policeman of the galaxy fixing, or not the various and many problems of the republic.

 

Things get alot more blurry when you realize the senators are not democratically elected (They are rather appointed), making the republic not a "democracy"....

 

Its called "storytelling" and how would you act when you are in a truce with your most dangerous enemy, a truce that has only a Decent advantage for your faction, and the fact that the Jedi moved their HQ to Tython makes some senators think they can do things a bit more freely, the whole thing with it is the tension, the greed, and the fear

[CatoFel]

tobarstep:

 

Ah, yes, there are some hardy Kath Hounds over here trying to advance the RP cause when and where they can. I've picked up on some of the challenges, though I don't really have much in the way of standards for comparison. If you ever come our way, feel free to let Aeth'iss or Bra'dhas'vihang know.

[GoggleBoi]

Things get alot more blurry when you realize the senators are not democratically elected (They are rather appointed), making the republic not a "democracy"....

 

Uh.... A republic is NOT a democracy. It shares many similar traits, but the two are not one and the same.

 

Republic:

"A republic is a form of government in which the people, or some significant portion of them, have supreme control over the government and where offices of state are elected or chosen by elected people"

 

 

Democracy:

"Democracy is the ideal that all the citizens of a nation determine together the laws or actions of their state, requiring that all citizens have an equal opportunity to express their consent and their will."

 

 

They are two completely different governmental systems. Rome, for instance was a Republic at times during its life. People did not 'vote,' however. Senators did. The definition are close, but the differences have vast implications. In a Democracy, every man and woman of age has a vote they may cast. In a Republic, a certain group of the people has a vote.

 

In fact, the Republic could not possibly be a true democracy, any more than the United States, Canada or anywhere else could, because people on Coruscant cannot possibly have a say in what people on Corellia do. For one, the logistics are mind boggling, for another, each world is a separate entity, as each State is a separate entity.

 

 

 

But, regardless, both sides suffer from 'corruption.' Both governments are flawed. Politicians in any system where they are 'elected' or 'appointed' are going to do precisely what they need to get said position. To assume they would use only honourable means is lunacy. People are not just. People are not good. At best, we are a mix of right and wrong. We make decisions based on emotions, and sometimes we make the wrong ones. Within the Republic, those with money, power and influence enter government, as they do within our own world. Control the government, you control what happens. This is a fact of life. It sucks, I don't agree with it, I certainly don't like it, but it is a fact. Any history book will tell you this.

 

The difference between the Sith and the Republic? This behaviour, this kind of use of power, is illegal within the Republic. As a member of the Republic, regardless of class, you are called upon on several worlds to deal with this issue. As a member of the Sith, this is par for the course and actively encouraged by the Sith belief structure. They believe that through conflict, through strife, the strong survive. The Imperial Military is an entirely separate entity, being a military, and they believe in following orders, in loyalty to your ranking officers.

 

So, yeah, the Republic has corruption in it, but for the most part we get to do something about it. The Sith Empire is corrupt as well, but it is supposed to be, so who cares? The only group that seems to really give a damn, and work for the common good, are the Jedi. Saving the life of the Jedi Masters benefits the whole, because without them the Order suffers, and if the Order suffers, the galaxy suffers. It isn't emotion. It is cold, hard logic. One Master is more important because of the power and knowledge they possess.

[Guildrum]

Republic- Corrupt, criminal senators are prominent, but then again, what would the good senators have anything to do in these storylines? The good senators are not doing anything attention worthy.

 

Empire- Constant backstabbing, total instability and to be honest, a foundation that cannot stand. I'd take corruption that can be combated over uttery stupidity any day.

[Myschief]

There is less corruption in the senate then there appears to be. Corrupt officials are just more likely to stand out. Those that crave power are more likely to either be in positions of power or to exercize power.

 

The ugnaught senator that sends us to gather evidence of corruption is not corrupt. The senator negotiating with the Gree driods is not corrupt. The senator trying to convince the rest of the senate to join the Empire is not corrupt (he is in fact strictly adhering to the laws governing the Senate).

 

It is important to note that the Replubic appears to be a confederated body rather than a federalist one. The planets represented by each senator is its own state, with its own governing process. Each senator is beholden to the state that appointed /elected that senator, not to the Republic. Each planet is meant to maintain and enforce its own laws, the the laws of the Republic meant to govern the interaction of those states between themselves and states outside of the Republic.

 

Assumming the Republic is 1/10th the size of what is will be when the senate is desolved 0BBY, we are judging the Republic after seeing less than 0.5% of the Republic during the course of the game. That 0.5% being the areas of concern in the eyes of Republic. That is a very small percentage by which to judge a society.

[CatoFel]

Republic- Corrupt, criminal senators are prominent, but then again, what would the good senators have anything to do in these storylines? The good senators are not doing anything attention worthy.

 

Empire- Constant backstabbing, total instability and to be honest, a foundation that cannot stand. I'd take corruption that can be combated over uttery stupidity any day.

 

Your first point? Exactly.

Your second point? Alternative version:

 

Republic-A confederation that won't really let you leave voluntarily, a galactic body that claims benevolence but is really too large and unwieldy to be effective most of the time. I'd take the potential for occasional, honest effectiveness over perpetual hypocrisy and systemic ineffectiveness any day.

 

To the extent that SW has an overall political point, it's that it doesn't matter what kind of institutions you have if you don't have the right quality of people in charge. Both sides COULD be much better than they are, it just depends on what the philosophies, goals, and mindsets of the individuals running the show are.

[Mugo]

Republic- Corrupt, criminal senators are prominent, but then again, what would the good senators have anything to do in these storylines? The good senators are not doing anything attention worthy.

 

Empire- Constant backstabbing, total instability and to be honest, a foundation that cannot stand. I'd take corruption that can be combated over uttery stupidity any day.

 

Well you see, this is exactly the viewpoint I don't agree with.

 

Republic - Modern democracy. Yes, Senate in this case is just a body of galactic federation of planets. It's pretty much made similar to U.S. system. But transitionally, it is a democracy. Or it depends on planets themselves. But, you see, if one of the planets is feudal, this doesn't make Republic less republic. In fact, Alderaan looks more like feudal system.

 

Empire - Feudal system of the past. Well, you can't exactly say that countries in past were weak. In contrary, read up on French Revolution and you'll get what was needed to do in order to establish new ideals.

 

Every political system starts to crumble under it's own weight, because small part of society think they are better than common people (Populi) and that they have every right to exploit those with less power. When this comes to the edge of knife and people start to rebel and riot, political system changes. I think we are slowly coming to this point today.

 

However, Empire and Republic aren't something we already seeing right now, or in past. It's just, Republic is more close to our understanding than Empire. God knows what our children will think about it in 50 or 100 years, maybe living in totally different political and economical system.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Mugo

[Mugo]

About backstabbing inside Empire. Sith isn't so naive as some would think.

 

 

Darth Baras was hungry for power. So much he killed Dark Council member to take his position. But that was not enough for him, so in the absence of the Emperor, he wanted to proclaim himself for Emperor's Voice. Emperor found out about this and unleashed his Wrath to expose and kill Darth Baras as someone who is trying to defy Emperor's will.

 

As soon as Dark Council members realize what Darth Baras did, they turn away from him, stopping to support him and leaving him to death by Emperor's Wrath.

 

 

[Assaultrooper]

Republic - Modern democracy. Yes, Senate in this case is just a body of galactic federation of planets. It's pretty much made similar to U.S. system. But transitionally, it is a democracy. Or it depends on planets themselves. But, you see, if one of the planets is feudal, this doesn't make Republic less republic. In fact, Alderaan looks more like feudal system.

 

Empire - Feudal system of the past. Well, you can't exactly say that countries in past were weak. In contrary, read up on French Revolution and you'll get what was needed to do in order to establish new ideals.

 

So funny! because I thought the complete exact opposite!

 

Empire - The Capitalist Modern System (To The Extreme xD) valuing competitiveness, efficiency, and rough individualism.

 

Republic - Is the old obsolete ideas of "democracy" and "freedom" (I.E: Athens, and Rome) that were in the end completely corrupt and inefficient and it was because of this and nothing else this systems failed.

 

I mean I can't see really how US= Galactic Republic... And I would think yea.. If most planets do not elect their officials democratically, as is the case then there is no "people" in the republic.

 

Oh yea! For all of you who are saying "Republic =/= Democracy" The dictionary may say one thing but modern political thought says another, because we are referring to the same thing how The People have a say in government. (I should know.. I had a 1.5h debate with my professor over this.)

[SalsaDMA]

Oh yea! For all of you who are saying "Republic =/= Democracy" The dictionary may say one thing but modern political thought says another, because we are referring to the same thing how The People have a say in government. (I should know.. I had a 1.5h debate with my professor over this.)

 

In this regard it's actually kinda 'funny' (in a tragic way) what happened in ancient Rome. Brutos tried to save the republic, but because he failed to communicate proper with the masses he fell for his actions and the masses accepted a totalitarian government instead.

 

And I dunno why your professor decides to bend established definations. Claiming a democracy and republic is the same thing, is like claming an Arosticracy and Republic is the same thing. Just because there are some similarities, doesn't make them the same.

[Ranadiel_Marius]

About backstabbing inside Empire. Sith isn't so naive as some would think.

 

 

Darth Baras was hungry for power. So much he killed Dark Council member to take his position. But that was not enough for him, so in the absence of the Emperor, he wanted to proclaim himself for Emperor's Voice. Emperor found out about this and unleashed his Wrath to expose and kill Darth Baras as someone who is trying to defy Emperor's will.

 

As soon as Dark Council members realize what Darth Baras did, they turn away from him, stopping to support him and leaving him to death by Emperor's Wrath.

 

 

 

They didn't turn on Baras because they suddenly became aware of what was going on. Several of them were aware of what was going on well before then. What Baras was doing, was in fact beneficial to the Empire as a whole. What happened was they realized that Baras had pissed off the Emperor and that if they stuck with Baras the Emperor would have targetted them as well. They abadoned Baras not because it was best for the Empire but because they didn't want to be killed.

 

[Mugo]

They didn't turn on Baras because they suddenly became aware of what was going on. Several of them were aware of what was going on well before then. What Baras was doing, was in fact beneficial to the Empire as a whole. What happened was they realized that Baras had pissed off the Emperor and that if they stuck with Baras the Emperor would have targetted them as well. They abadoned Baras not because it was best for the Empire but because they didn't want to be killed.

 

 

 

Two things:

- What Baras was doing didn't need to be beneficial for Empire.

- Baras wanted to overthrow Emperor? This is how I saw it. But that man was not nearly match to do it. So how did he plan to achieve it? By tricks, shadow and deception, exactly how he got everything else in his miserable life. He got what he deserved and value of Sith grew in my eyes when they did to him what he deserved. And that's the reason why Baras wouldn't be beneficial for Empire.

 

 

[CatoFel]

Empire - The Capitalist Modern System (To The Extreme xD) valuing competitiveness, efficiency, and rough individualism.

 

Republic - Is the old obsolete ideas of "democracy" and "freedom" (I.E: Athens, and Rome) that were in the end completely corrupt and inefficient and it was because of this and nothing else this systems failed.

 

I mean I can't see really how US= Galactic Republic... And I would think yea.. If most planets do not elect their officials democratically, as is the case then there is no "people" in the republic.

 

I see your points...but overall I don't think they're the best characterizations. Sith are very much like feudal lords in that they are aristocrats with independent power bases, who are sometimes unruly and compete with each other, leading to some instability, but the majority don't let the worst of those get too out of hand. Moreover, at the end of the day, they'll band together to thrash the Republic when needed, and the infighting keeps 'em from going soft in the interim. A lot of feudal parallels there, and when you toss in Intelligence with their greater-good mentality, "individualistic" doesn't quite work. More like Feudalism and Totalitarianism grafted together, keeping each other stable...and highly effective, militarily, more often than not.

 

I entirely agree with those who say the Senate is more like the UN than anything else. Athens and even Rome were relatively homogenous in their ruling class of citizens and unitary in their political systems. The Republic, like the UN, has member states with diverse governing institutions, though the supra-legislature is democratic.

[Ranadiel_Marius]

 

Two things:

- What Baras was doing didn't need to be beneficial for Empire.

- Baras wanted to overthrow Emperor? This is how I saw it. But that man was not nearly match to do it. So how did he plan to achieve it? By tricks, shadow and deception, exactly how he got everything else in his miserable life. He got what he deserved and value of Sith grew in my eyes when they did to him what he deserved. And that's the reason why Baras wouldn't be beneficial for Empire.

 

 

 

.....You do know that the Emperor wants to kill off the entire galaxy including the Empire right? He doesn't give a crap about what happens in the war as long as people die and continue to die. Baras taking the Emperor out of the picture is a giant boon to the Empire because he actually wants the Empire to win the war unlike the uncaring Emperor.

 

And really everyone on the Dark Council pretty much got to where they are by tricks, shadow and deception. If you aren't willing to play those games then you'll get destroyed in Sith Politics by those who do.

 

[dlaselle]

What do you expect from "Rebels" They sugar count their mean by calling it "Just and Balanced" and think just because they think the empire is evil. they have the right to attack and destroy it.

 

In modern days terms, That is called Terrorism and the IA have every right to infiltrate and kill Terrorists.

[CatoFel]

What do you expect from "Rebels" They sugar count their mean by calling it "Just and Balanced" and think just because they think the empire is evil. they have the right to attack and destroy it.

 

In modern days terms, That is called Terrorism and the IA have every right to infiltrate and kill Terrorists.

 

Indeed. The IA's governing ideology tends toward totalitarianism because any individual is held to be insignificant except as a means to protect the group and serve the Council's wishes...personal loyalty being something that some agents value in spite of this...but they have every right to do what they do to terrorists, the Republic, and rebels, and they hold the ship of state together quite effectively.

[Assaultrooper]

In this regard it's actually kinda 'funny' (in a tragic way) what happened in ancient Rome. Brutos tried to save the republic, but because he failed to communicate proper with the masses he fell for his actions and the masses accepted a totalitarian government instead.

 

And I dunno why your professor decides to bend established definations. Claiming a democracy and republic is the same thing, is like claming an Arosticracy and Republic is the same thing. Just because there are some similarities, doesn't make them the same.

 

It isnt really saying they are the same, but rather saying that what matters in a republic or anything is actually how democratic it is. A republic is anything with a constitution or certain sense of law. That tells us nothing. When you say "Republic" now days either people think of a political ideology, or Republic like in law + elections + freedom of speech. Thats why when you ask "What processes lead to democratization?" you are not turned down immediately by "there are no democracies!".

 

In that sense sure the republic is actually a republic, where the people have no "true" voice. Forget what the dictionary says, would you still say its a Republic in the modern sense?