the 'bubble' is overpowered, nerf it!

[iceperson]

How does a jugg gain any GCD's from charging anyone.. you can still use abilities (unless they are full defense which they do no damage anyways). How do they gain anything.... no Jugg has any stuns except Force Choke/Statis which stuns themselves (and you should trinket that 1 and only stun they have every 60 seconds)... again assuming they are not defense (most are Rage specced). If they are defense you would be stunned for a little but coming out of it with almost all your hp and a full resolve bar....

 

How does a Op gain any GCD's on you. They gain ONE.... ONE from hidden strike... and it half fills your resolve bar... which they cannot spam on every freakin team member in their op. Everyone else has that 4 second stun.

 

Really I can tell you are reaaaaally bad at this. Reaaaaaaaallly bad.

 

any person who has a closer/stealth gets 1 free GCD pretty much every time they start combat. the shield, if applied before combat, only levels the playing field. a shield cast in combat doesn't do much more than trade a GCD. there's a reason you're not seeing changes to sorcs (other than the incoming bug fix.)

Edited February 24, 2012 by iceperson

[EternalFinality]

So the conclusion I should have drawn from "geared healing Sorc" is "geared hybrid healing sorc"?

 

Most Sorcs who PvP run the dps hybrid spec or the healing hybrid spec. Some are hold overs from their raiding full heal spec.

 

That's about it. 2 and a half specs for competent Sorcs. You see more healing hybrids than full healers. You might know this if you were experienced at PvP.

Edited February 24, 2012 by EternalFinality

[pinkfreudHC]

You're right. But as you said, DPS is an average, and saying 1k DPS is implying 1000 damage in one second, whether that is the truth of the numbers or not, that is the implication. Over the span of those two seconds, you did 2k damage, which as an average, is 1k a second. Obviously because of the nature of the abilities you used, that's not the actual damage ouput, but when you average it out, it is.

 

But the point is that you can't say a bubble takes X GCDs to take down because you don't know how much damage is in each GCD, regardless of the DPS output.

 

Some classes have front-loaded damage, some ramp up.

[SinnedWill]

Bubbles absorb a set value of damage. Bubbles being put on classes with higher armor ratings and/or shield generators and/or classes with damage reducing abilities are far more effective than the bubbles on a sage/sorc due to the armor rating differences. Yes, a single Force Scream from a marauder either breaks a fresh bubble (on sage/sorc) and deals some damage (small amount) or leaves very little value to absorb for that bubble from another hit (just using that as a single example).

[longgrassgrows]

hybrid healing sorcs are so amazingly easy to kill it's not even funny lol.

 

I don't want to find another video, but this is how you play a Sentinel:

 

i understand where ur coming from....but that guy is better pro

[TetraCleric]

Most Sorcs who PvP run the dps hybrid spec or the healing hybrid spec. Some are hold overs from their raiding full heal spec.

 

That's about it. 2 and a half specs for competent Sorcs. You see more healing hybrids than full healers. You might know this if you were experienced at PvP.

 

lololol, hilarious you think hybrid healers are viable. they are good sub 50, and were good before people got gear. now they are a complete joke.

[TetraCleric]

But the point is that you can't say a bubble takes X GCDs to take down because you don't know how much damage is in each GCD, regardless of the DPS output.

 

Some classes have front-loaded damage, some ramp up.

 

You are correct.

[zizzefex]

any person who has a closer/stealth gets 1 free GCD pretty much every time they start combat. the shield, if applied before combat, only levels the playing field. a shield cast in combat doesn't do much more than trade a GCD. there's a reason you're not seeing changes to sorcs (other than the incoming bug fix.)

 

Except everyone with a stealth is theoretically a class supposed to counter squishy.

 

IT IS NOT TRADING A GCD... it is getting a extra GCD. How many times do I have to say this. Prehotting someone is not trading GCD's after a fight starts because dur.... they did 2 GCD's worth of damage which was the same as thos hot's..... IT IS NOT TRADING. That person who prehotting is still casting while you are doing your 2 GCD's worth of damage so they actually have 2 extra GCD's.... IT IS NOT EQUAL.

 

Now luckily HoT's are weak as **** in this game I was only using that as a example... but I hope you get the picture baddie.

[iceperson]

Except everyone with a stealth is theoretically a class supposed to counter squishy.

 

IT IS NOT TRADING A GCD... it is getting a extra GCD. How many times do I have to say this. Prehotting someone is not trading GCD's after a fight starts because dur.... they did 2 GCD's worth of damage which was the same as thos hot's..... IT IS NOT TRADING. That person who prehotting is still casting while you are doing your 2 GCD's worth of damage so they actually have 2 extra GCD's.... IT IS NOT EQUAL.

 

Now luckily HoT's are weak as **** in this game I was only using that as a example... but I hope you get the picture baddie.

 

i'm totally imagining you wearing a helmet right now

[CuriousK]

what's really funny is the bubble is usually 1 shot by any decently geared player, so anything but a "pre bubble" is basically just a traded global CD.

 

Except that bubble can

 

• be (as you mentioned) put up prior to the combat
  
• be a crit bubble, that absorbs 6k damage which most geared players will find challenging to drop in one GCD
  
• be specced to blind you when it pops, which can deny you 2 additional GCDs to their one.
  

 

but yes, if you cant reliably hit for 4 to 6k damage a shot (I cant, though granted my only 50 is a healer) your trading GCDs in a 1 on 1 fight. Even that though is advantageous if you have Hots ticking for instance, or are trying to hold out at a node preventing a cap.

[Prophetic]

Bubble is basically an instant, reactive heal that can never overheal.

 

My simple PvP fix?

 

Make Bubble be affected by Trauma.

[pinkfreudHC]

Except that bubble can

 

• be (as you mentioned) put up prior to the combat
  
• be a crit bubble, that absorbs 6k damage which most geared players will find challenging to drop in one GCD
  
• be specced to blind you when it pops, which can deny you 2 additional GCDs to their one.
  

 

but yes, if you cant reliably hit for 4 to 6k damage a shot (I cant, though granted my only 50 is a healer) your trading GCDs in a 1 on 1 fight. Even that though is advantageous if you have Hots ticking for instance, or are trying to hold out at a node preventing a cap.

 

Do you have evidence for "crit bubbles?"

[iceperson]

Except that bubble can

 

• be (as you mentioned) put up prior to the combat
  
• be a crit bubble, that absorbs 6k damage which most geared players will find challenging to drop in one GCD
  
• be specced to blind you when it pops, which can deny you 2 additional GCDs to their one.
  

 

but yes, if you cant reliably hit for 4 to 6k damage a shot (I cant, though granted my only 50 is a healer) your trading GCDs in a 1 on 1 fight. Even that though is advantageous if you have Hots ticking for instance, or are trying to hold out at a node preventing a cap.

 

bubbles can't crit and aren't affected by armor or any other DR. there's no such thing as a 4k bubble. bubble absorb also scales slower than damage.

Edited February 24, 2012 by iceperson

[Dreydin]

Its as simple as this, as a single DPS, you should NOT be able to kill a fully specced healer alone(nor should he be able to kill you). If a healer cannot even keep himself alive against a single DPS, then why would anyone play a healer?

 

For things to balance, a healer needs to be able to sustain healing greater then a single person can do(while being equivalently geared/skilled).

 

Without bubble, a healing sorcs survivability would go down MASSIVELY. We dont have heavy armor, and we dont have crazy defensive abilities. Were basically a kleenex that packs a punch healing wise.

 

If you feel bubble is overpowered, perhaps its time to acknowledge that you suck? Once you do that, a whole new world of possibilities open up. And maybe if you feel its so damn easy, you can roll one.....

 

I know even as a geared battlemaster, there is plenty of people that can roll up and kick my face in quite quickly. But so many of you have these expectations that if you cant solo the sorc, he must be overpowered. How misguided! L2PLAY nubs

[justcallmetarzan]

By what abilities? Most people seem to curiously omit this.

 

"My bubble gets one shot all the time!"

"How?"

"A crit!"

"From whatZ"

"You're bad!"

 

I don't play Imp, so I don't know what their analogies are called, and of course, without a combat log it's hard to know for sure... but I've been hit by snipers for 3k+ aimed shots, 3k+ (and 4k+ crit) trickshots. Marauders have some execute move that I think requires building some debuff first, but that will hit well over 4k with up to 5k crits. Sorcs can do it with the equivalents of FIB or TKW, though those usually need to crit to knock it off.

 

Now, I will of course admit that it's hard to tell when an ability is hitting for its normal damage or critting because BW saw fit to omit a combat log from the game (IDK how they properly alpha'ed or beta'ed the game without one... oh wait...). So take it with that grain of salt. But I do know for a fact from seeing the numbers fly up when I've been hit without my bubble up that all of those abilities hit hard enough to burst a bubble.

 

Also, more on bubble maths...

 

First, expertise does not effect bubble strength. That's most important to remember. So it's going to scale poorer and poorer as we get closer to the *real* end game (i.e. where serious pvp'ers all have BiS pvp gear).

 

Second, current BiS will give you a 3564 absorb bubble. I think the old BiS was around 3450. My stats will give me a 3031 absorb bubble. If I pop my 355 power trink, that becomes 3268, and if I had the 380 trink, it would be 3284. This also assumes that I'm talented into the 20% bubble strength increase (which any sage/sorc should be).

 

This assumes that the endgame bubble level is indeed learned at level 50, which curiously, I haven't been able to confirm - if it is learned at a lower level, these values would drop.

[pinkfreudHC]

Its as simple as this, as a single DPS, you should NOT be able to kill a fully specced healer alone(nor should he be able to kill you). If a healer cannot even keep himself alive against a single DPS, then why would anyone play a healer?

 

Because healing should be balanced around healing a mitigated target in a team-based PVP scenario.

 

You should need a Tank guarding you and/or taunting the DPSer who is attacking you.

[zizzefex]

If you feel bubble is overpowered, perhaps its time to acknowledge that you suck? Once you do that, a whole new world of possibilities open up. And maybe if you feel its so damn easy, you can roll one.....

 

 

Last time I checked a Sorc/Sage without bubble would still have sprint, a 4 second stun, cyclone, aoe knockback snare...... and still with the best CC/escape ability of any class in the game by far.

 

Go play something else nub.

[savionen]

Ion Pulse only crits for 1500. I guess Vanguard damage needs to be doubled since apparently every attack in the entire game breaks a bubble in one hit.

 

If every attack does 3k+ damage I guess I should be getting the Demolisher Medal on my first attack every game

Edited February 24, 2012 by savionen

[EternalFinality]

Its as simple as this, as a single DPS, you should NOT be able to kill a fully specced healer alone(nor should he be able to kill you). If a healer cannot even keep himself alive against a single DPS, then why would anyone play a healer?

 

For things to balance, a healer needs to be able to sustain healing greater then a single person can do(while being equivalently geared/skilled).

 

Without bubble, a healing sorcs survivability would go down MASSIVELY. We dont have heavy armor, and we dont have crazy defensive abilities. Were basically a kleenex that packs a punch healing wise.

 

If you feel bubble is overpowered, perhaps its time to acknowledge that you suck? Once you do that, a whole new world of possibilities open up. And maybe if you feel its so damn easy, you can roll one.....

 

I know even as a geared battlemaster, there is plenty of people that can roll up and kick my face in quite quickly. But so many of you have these expectations that if you cant solo the sorc, he must be overpowered. How misguided! L2PLAY nubs

 

Oh look it's that terrible argument again.

 

A healer should be healing more than a dps while freecasting, but should NOT be able to stay alive infinitely when being attacked directly by a dps.

 

It's not the case right now in TOR. Except for the poor Operatives.

 

Note this post also obliterates TetraCleric's "Skilled people pwn Sorcs 1v1 and all Sorcs will tell you the same thing" argument.

Edited February 24, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Khadroth]

lololol, hilarious you think hybrid healers are viable. they are good sub 50, and were good before people got gear. now they are a complete joke.

 

Absolutely true. Everyone who comes on the Sage boards asking if their hybrid healing/dps spec is viable in PvP basically gets told to go full Seer or Hybrid Dps.

 

Hybrid healing/dps sorcs just need 1 interupt on their big heal and they immediately lose or have to flee. Their dmg is too subpar to win in a dps race, and their healing is too subpar to out heal your dmg.

[iceperson]

Ion Pulse only crits for 1500. I guess Vanguard damage needs to be doubled since apparently every attack in the entire game breaks a bubble in one hit.

 

If every attack does 3k+ damage I guess I should be getting the Demolisher Medal on my first attack every game

 

and every sorc always has shield up at all times with the cd up too...

[savionen]

Acting as if every attack does 3k+ damage is really, a stupid argument though.

 

There's not a single class that can put up 3k+ damage every attack automatically in a PvP situation.

 

Taking a Shadow as an example Clairvoyant Strike will do like 1800 (IF it crits, 35% chance), that's half a bubble. Otherwise it's doing 1000. That's 3 GCD if it doesn't crit, 2 if it crits both times. Shadow Strike, Project and Shadow Breach can all do 3k+, upwards of 3800 with BM gear, but they all require melee range, positioning, a stack of procs, and then the actual percent chance of critting.

 

30% chance to crit =/= 100% chance to crit. Skills don't do 3k+ without a crit, aside from maybe 1 or 2 Sniper skills I think it's potentially possible.

 

Bubble can also be cast when you're OUTSIDE of melee range on a melee enemy, or when you're LoSing so you're not trading one GCD for their GCD when they're not even near you, or are CC'd.

 

and every sorc always has shield up at all times with the cd up too...

 

And big damage attacks, procs, adrenals, relics, etc... aren't always up, either.

Edited February 24, 2012 by savionen

[TetraCleric]

Oh look it's that terrible argument again.

 

A healer should be healing more than a dps while freecasting, but should NOT be able to stay alive infinitely when being attacked directly by a dps.

 

It's not the case right now in TOR. Except for the poor Operatives.

 

Note this post also obliterates TetraCleric's "Skilled people pwn Sorcs 1v1 and all Sorcs will tell you the same thing" argument.

 

Sure it does buddy

[FalmeseReb]

Yea dude, 50-0 games with 400k damage makes me sooooo bad. Sorry I don't play a gimmick spec, and can still dominate.

 

because your class is OP.

[Burtlebe]

I have a scoundrel, a commando and a Sage (also have sorc on other server). In pve i can say without a doubt that the bubble is and the aoe heal are the two things that make the sage way better than any of the others. I tend to spend more time doing dps during flashpoints and heroics due to the bubble and aoe heal vs my other two healers.

 

Now flip around to pvp. I have all the advanced classes and have no issue killing a sorc 1 vs 1. The problem honestly lies in the fact that you never see just 1. Most wz lately seems like there are 3 or 4 sorcs in it or 3 or 4 mercs. When you have that many of the same class in a wz with that many defining abilities its going to for sure appear to be that the class is OP.

 

Having spent alot of time playing republic and imperial classes (was in beta for long time and currently have a imperial and republic server i play alot on) I came to the conclusion that Sage/Sorc Commando/Merc and Vanguard/Powertech are the best designed extremely fun classes with the best skill synergy. Not saying the others are not fun cause i enjoy all the classes, just saying that they did a better job on the mentioned classes. They are also alot easier to play decently and as such tend to atract more people to them. So its just natural to see so many in a wz.

 

Its been like this in almost every game that has launched. I dont like nerfs cause its a never ending cycle. I am happy to see that for the most part BW has refrained from knee jerk nerfing and is instead trying to bring all classes up to the same level. For the record my main isnt one of the aforementioned more balanced classes so dont have a dog in the race other than my desire that this game break the nerfing cycle that most games get into.