warkat Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 you make it sound like they can do 500k dmg and 300k healing in the same wgz...more like 500k / 40k healing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savionen Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 you make it sound like they can do 500k dmg and 300k healing in the same wgz...more like 500k / 40k healing. Casting bubble on yourself will do more than 40k, by itself. Add casting it on other people and tossing some random heals and yeah, it's possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visue Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) In response to the OP, as a DPS sage I have two heals, Benevolence and Deliverance. At 50 in Champion gear (with a few hundred alacrity, which does almost nothing for us): Benevolence has a 1.3-second cast time and typically heals for 1000-1500. (about 1/16-1/12 of my health bar) Deliverance has a 2.3/2.7-second cast time and heals for 2000-2500. (about 1/8-1/6 of my health bar) The shield absorbs 2,500-3,000, and produces a 17/20-second debuff on its target that prevents the shield from being cast again for its duration. This provides a bit of mitigation to keep us alive while wearing light armor. The heals afford zero mobility, can very easily be interrupted and neither of them returns as much HP as a single hit from a melee class. It's a good question. But I think the main issue with Sorcerers/Sages isn't that they can switch between DPS and healing abilities on the fly. The issue is that they can spam these abilities virtually endlessly. Sith Warriors / Jedi Knights are restricted by Rage / Focus. Imperial Agents & Smugglers are restricted by Energy. Bounty Hunters / Troopers are restricted by Heat / Ammo. Sorcerers are supposed to be restricted by Force, but this really isn't the case. The size of their Force pool compared to the costs of their abilities allows them to churn out damage and heals at a rare higher rate than any of the other 3 class types. Warriors can burn through a full Rage bar with a handful of attacks, while the other classes can quickly find themselves with a full heat bar, an empty energy bar, both of which empty/refill at a snail's pace once down to one >. This is just plain wrong, at least when it comes to the hybrid sage specs. I'm hybrid-specced, and even when conserving force I run out within 1-2 minutes of solid fighting in a WZ. After that point, I must leave combat and find a place to meditate for about seven seconds: no small feat. More often, I just die. Edited February 25, 2012 by Visue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savionen Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) This is just plain wrong, at least when it comes to the hybrid sage specs. I'm hybrid-specced, and even when conserving force I run out within 1-2 minutes of solid fighting in a WZ. After that point, I must leave combat and find a place to meditate for about seven seconds: no small feat. More often, I just die. A mercenary's bigger heal takes 25% of their ammo. For a Sorcerer it's closer to 11%. They also regenerate ammo much slower when they're out of ammo, compared to when a Sorcerer is out of Force. A Mercenary regenerates 0.24 ammo a second when they're out of ammo. They regenerate 0.36 ammo when they're very low. When out of ammo that's 12 seconds to be able to cast one big heal. When nearly out of ammo that's 10 seconds to be able to cast one big heal. Mercenaries also regenerate ammo quicker when they're higher up, comparatively, just saying that if you feel like you're running out of Force quickly, EVERY other class is much much worse. Edited February 25, 2012 by savionen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acyu Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Casting bubble on yourself will do more than 40k, by itself. Add casting it on other people and tossing some random heals and yeah, it's possible. 500k/300k is really not possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 500k/300k is really not possible. it really isn't tbh. Sorcs even when they are good only average 200k damage/200k healing. If they are really lucky they can hit 300k-400k for one, they can't do it for both. These guys are way over exagerating this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visue Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 A mercenary's bigger heal takes 25% of their ammo. For a Sorcerer it's closer to 11%. They also regenerate ammo much slower when they're out of ammo, compared to when a Sorcerer is out of Force. A Mercenary regenerates 0.24 ammo a second when they're out of ammo. They regenerate 0.36 ammo when they're very low. When out of ammo that's 12 seconds to be able to cast one big heal. When nearly out of ammo that's 10 seconds to be able to cast one big heal. I've never played a mercenary, so I'm afraid can't comment on that. I do know that as a TK/Balance hybrid sage, I run out of force very quickly and very often in warzones. To say that force is not an effective resource system because hybrids do not run out of force is incorrect. Deliverance (our "big heal") is far more force-efficient than Benevolence (our "small heal"), but the long cast time (base 3 second, talented 2.5 second before alacrity) makes it quite difficult to use in PvP situations because it is difficult to interrupt and does not heal much damage. I use Deliverance primarily when there is no one around, but for some reason I find myself stuck in combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savionen Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) 500k/300k is really not possible. I'm not going to say it's common. There's people that have gotten 900k damage before, too. Saw a Jedi Guardian do 400k damage and 300k protection, etc. I rarely actually see anyone get above 400k damage, without protection or healing. But I do think Sorc/Sage needs tweaking to their hybrid build, regardless of any hearsay or screenshots. Edited February 25, 2012 by savionen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I've never played a mercenary, so I'm afraid can't comment on that. I do know that as a TK/Balance hybrid sage, I run out of force very quickly and very often in warzones. To say that force is not an effective resource system because hybrids do not run out of force is incorrect. Deliverance (our "big heal") is far more force-efficient than Benevolence (our "small heal"), but the long cast time (base 3 second, talented 2.5 second before alacrity) makes it quite difficult to use in PvP situations because it is difficult to interrupt and does not heal much damage. I use Deliverance primarily when there is no one around, but for some reason I find myself stuck in combat. You are correct, force actually runs out pretty quick while healing as a hybrid healer sage. Usually what I have to do to regenerate my force is to actually spam telekinetic throw because it regens my force. It's comical actually. Oh you mean I ran out of force? Fine I'll go kill some people for a while then...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I'm not going to say it's common. There's people that have gotten 900k damage before, too. Saw a Jedi Guardian do 400k damage and 300k protection, etc. I rarely actually see anyone get above 400k damage, without protection or healing. But I do think Sorc/Sage needs tweaking to their hybrid build, regardless of any hearsay or screenshots. sure, but not in the way you think of it. All that needs to happen is for force lightning/telekinetic throw to fill up resolve bar, thus giving the target a chance to get away at least from the slow movement and slow channeling. The continuous damage needs to stay at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visue Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I'm not going to say it's common. There's people that have gotten 900k damage before, too. Saw a Jedi Guardian do 400k damage and 300k protection, etc. I rarely actually see anyone get above 400k damage, without protection or healing. But I do think Sorc/Sage needs tweaking to their hybrid build. The hybrid build may need tweaking, but the full TK build definitely needs to be made viable. I actually like the playstyle and the animations of full TK much more than I like those of the hybrid, but TK does not do nearly enough damage (~1,100 damage on Disturbance, ~2,500-2,700 Turbulence crits) or offer nearly enough mobility to be usable in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobaIceTea Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Not that I support the OP, but it's really not hard to pull like 300k damage and 200k healing. If it's a well geared and oiled premade or something you can easily get even more numbers, maybe like 500k but still only 150-200k healing. It's kinda silly to have so many utilities tied to a single class with no restrictions. I'd be more happy with some sort of secondary AC choice where after picking Sage they then pick if they are going to follow the path of damage or healing and depending on the choice it lowers their output on the side they didn't pick by like 10-20% or something. However before one jumps to these sorts of things you have to realize what this would do to a class during their leveling and also in PvE endgame stuff. WTH IS THIS!?! Please get your insightful and well thought post out of these forums!!! It doesn't belong here. Edited February 25, 2012 by BobaIceTea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visue Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 You are correct, force actually runs out pretty quick while healing as a hybrid healer sage. Usually what I have to do to regenerate my force is to actually spam telekinetic throw because it regens my force. It's comical actually. Oh you mean I ran out of force? Fine I'll go kill some people for a while then...... Using that ability turns out to be JUST over force-neutral, given the ability's initial cost. When I find myself with so little force that I am unable to use anything else, it typically means I'm about to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Using that ability turns out to be JUST over force-neutral, given the ability's initial cost. When I find myself with so little force that I am unable to use anything else, it typically means I'm about to die. well it seems to do well enough for me, of course there is that last ditch effort called noble sacrifice.......but still, force does run out fairly quickly, especially if you are trying to keep your groupies alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visue Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 well it seems to do well enough for me, of course there is that last ditch effort called noble sacrifice.......but still, force does run out fairly quickly, especially if you are trying to keep your groupies alive. I only have 7 points in Seer (the healing tree), but noble sacrifice eats a pretty nasty chunk of your health bar without the talents that enhance it. All these people keep saying that DPS sages are getting 200k+ healing in warzones, but if I'm healing that much my DPS usually drops off to below 200k. If I focus on DPS, my damage is typically much higher, but I never get above about 75k healing. It's possible that I'm just doing it wrong though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I only have 7 points in Seer (the healing tree), but noble sacrifice eats a pretty nasty chunk of your health bar without the talents that enhance it. All these people keep saying that DPS sages are getting 200k+ healing in warzones, but if I'm healing that much my DPS usually drops off to below 200k. If I focus on DPS, my damage is typically much higher, but I never get above about 75k healing. It's possible that I'm just doing it wrong though. can you post your skill tree? You might be doing it wrong.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NilanVoid Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Why is it that every idiot feels "they" know how to fix a class that they don't play? I say we dispense with all armor, weapons, and spells and simply run around donkey-punching each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) can you post your skill tree? You might be doing it wrong.... and you are right, dps sages are bust actually, you need to go seer sage with telekinetics balance. I think my spec is something like 27/0/14....... Edited February 25, 2012 by bellok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedMix Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 Why is it that every idiot feels "they" know how to fix a class that they don't play? I say we dispense with all armor, weapons, and spells and simply run around donkey-punching each other. Sorcerers just don't know what its like to be one of the "have-nots"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visue Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) and you are right, dps sages are bust actually, you need to go seer sage with telekinetics balance. I think my spec is something like 24/0/17....... You have more than half of your points in the healing tree. I would expect you to be able to heal rather well with that kind of build. I've never tried it, so I'm not sure how the DPS measures up, but you're giving up a lot of utility and damage in the TK tree with that spec. Here is my spec: http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/jedi_consular/sage/?embed=1&lock=1#::f5e3f2efef2e2fe2f3ef2e3fe2f2e2f3ef5ef2ef8 I just want to point out that as a hybrid DPS sage (which seemed to be what the OP was discussing), my healing is mediocre at best. It's typically not even worth using healing abilities, especially when there's someone after you. I do well in terms of DPS, but I believe most hybrids are DPS hybrids and put even fewer points in healing than I do. Edited February 25, 2012 by Visue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahdii Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Its a good idea. Would say have a DPS and Healing stance. Both costing 50% of resources to enter such stance. Now you would have to tackle how to handle the buffs of the stances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visue Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Sorcerers just don't know what its like to be one of the "have-nots"... I played a PvP Arcane mage in WoW... just saying. Edited February 25, 2012 by Visue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamsmacked Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Flat out prevent them from casting heals/shield while in DPS stance or make them take 2x as long to cast them or something. these Sorcs doing 500k Dmg and Healing at the same time is just ridiculous. The game is perfectly balanced. It's balanced. It's balanced Balanced Balanced! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedMix Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 I played a mage in WoW... just saying. Yea... i figured that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 You have more than half of your points in the healing tree. I would expect you to be able to heal rather well with that kind of build. I've never tried it, so I'm not sure how the DPS measures up, but you're giving up a lot of utility and damage in the TK tree with that spec. Here is my spec: http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/jedi_consular/sage/?embed=1&lock=1#::f5e3f2efef2e2fe2f3ef2e3fe2f2e2f3ef5ef2ef8 I just want to point out that as a hybrid DPS sage (which seemed to be what the OP was discussing), my healing is mediocre at best. It's typically not even worth using healing abilities, especially when there's someone after you. I do well in terms of DPS, but I believe most hybrids are DPS hybrids and put even fewer points in healing than I do. I edited it. I'm actually 27/0/14 not 24/0/17. It is a great healer, the only problem is it doesn't have salvation for the area heals, but that would force you to go full spec seer I think. The 14 skills in telekinetic balance should be focused on willpower, telekinetic throw crit, telekinetic balance passive skill, and the force regeneration while using telekinetic throw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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