How Can we Improve Deception?

[Ch_Zero]

Been running a few test in pvp and pve.

 

All tests are focused around similar gear

 

Madness seems to have increased dps in pve and pvp, and you last longer.

 

Deception at first glance looks pretty because you see larger numbers, however it lacks what madness has.

 

I've been gladiator in WoW so i know a few things about effective play-styles.

 

Deception is just an inferior spec, i hate to say. You can be more effective in pvp even as tank spec.

 

I don't have concrete numbers as of now, but I'm sure most of you agree with me.

 

What can we add to deception to give it that extra boost it needs to compete?

 

A health increase on discharge?

 

Give me your opinions.

 

Its not a completely broken spec so don't misunderstand. It just needs a little help

[Brat]

I've stated this before in other threads...

 

The only thing that I feel that Deception needs is to move Duplicity up the tree and make it a single point. Instead of proc'ing Exploit Weakness and following up with a Maul to get the 50% armor reduction, make it a stacking debuff that has a chance to proc off of Maul.

 

This way...

 

1. You have to spec high in the tree in Deception to get it

2. You only have to use Maul once to gain something from it and don't have to be on their back the rest of the fight

3. You can choose to keep using Maul at a high force cost for more debuff to get more damage while making it a challenge to stay on your targets back

4. Gives us a valid reason to use Maul as a stealth opener with a chance at an instant reward for using it.

 

You could easily move Duplicity into Deceptive Power's spot, change it from three points to one point and move Deceptive Power down to the first tier, give it three points and have it be an additional 10 force per point used. This would also help us out in the fact that the Deception tree has the lowest force regen rate of any other spec.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Brat

[Delillo]

Move disjunction to the 3rd tier of deception, replacing surging charge. (why do we need to spend a point for our charge???)

 

Entropic field belongs in darkness (it has tank written all over it)

 

Add a single point ability to the 5th tier which removes the once per 10 seconds restriction on duplicity.

 

Resourcefulness is just a total garbage ability because lacerate is a total garbage ability (and inappropriate for the deception tree). Or instead make resourcefulness make Lacerate actually worth using. So that using lacerate in a PvP setting has some value (other than as an AE cap-interrupter). Lets face it- if a deception assassin is in the middle of a crowd its AE should hit HARD because he's not going to survive there long anyway. A PBAE should hit harder than a ranged AE.

 

Static charges should ramp up quicker- maybe 10% per proc and cap at 3. Its bad design to have both static charges (rewards you for waiting) and recirculation (lowers CD) on the same ability. Stacks up to 5? What fight lasts this long? If it does, you've already lost.

 

edit: I think Brat's idea is pretty solid to transform maul into an opener.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Delillo

[Ch_Zero]

Good ideas so far.

 

Much more creativity than i had.

 

 

 

I just think deception is all flash no substance.

 

 

Is our role support burst in pvp? Because our damage will not top madness.

 

It actually comes out dead last in terms of the three trees in pvp.

[Lowerydro]

Deception output and rotations are fine... in fact the rotation is well done and and stacks better than mast other classes while not relying on spamming one skill.

 

The only place deception really needs help is in defense. You can't make a game based completely on group pvp (warzones and Ilum) and then make a class with cloth armor and no defense but a few seconds of cooldowns. The core problem is that no defenses work in pvp other than stacking mass amounts, ie using dark charge.

 

I think the way to fix ALL of the assassin specs and improve on all of the classes that use stances/charges is to changes the stance system and make it more dynamic.

 

Charges should be completely left alone as far as the charge and discharge. Surging should be a single hard hitter, dark should have the heal and lightning have the dot... but they should NOT be tied to adding to our defense or threat level. There should be another "stance" option added that allows for a simple "dps" stance that gives a larger benefit but forgoes defense, and a defensive stance that gives the defense bonuses but has no offensive benefit.

 

There should then be a buff/toggle to add threat to our attacks.

 

So you would have....

- Charge: Choice of charge damage and discharge

- Stance: Choice of defense or offense self buffs

- Threat toggle: Allows for still being defensive in pve content without additional threat

 

With that type of system a person can then choose what spec to use, to be offensive or defensive (probably be a pvp vs pve choice) and they can also choose to add on their threat if they want to tank.

 

That allows people to tank in any spec, dps in any spec, and still be able to have a real choice in how they play THEIR character.

 

Again, this should be warrior, assassin and PT based so all of the classes that work off the same mechanics all benefit.

 

Until they do something like this there will always be a pvp spec/dps spec divide that can never be overcome.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Lowerydro

[Maldy]

I never fully understood the actual role of deception.., altho i find it a fun spec. I have been making several comments in other threads about a opener.

 

Il just list what we could have to imrpove, This just plain.

 

-Fix assasinate animation, it isn't fun to miss a kill cus u keep twirling ur sword above your head.

 

- Maul(this is a tricky one ( i like the idea of brat alot) but idd we should have something worthy to open with( now it pretty much doesn't matter , i prefer either voltaic slash or slow.

Also fix the animation.

 

 

Remove surging charge was also my plan, cus why waste a point while other 2 specs dont need to.

 

If we had some combat log or meter i think we will have a jawdrop of how bad it actualy is(Deception).

[Astarica]

The only thing I agree with is moving Disjunction to Deception, not because they're bad but that most of them have serious ramifications to the game and would require heavy testing to ensure you don't have any unintended side effects. It never made sense to me that arguably the strongest anti-CC ability in the entire Assassin arsenal comes to a tree that least needs that ability.

 

But if we're to improve Deception's survivality, the easiest way would be to copy Marauder's Cloak of Pain: 60s CD, 6s duration, +20% reduction versus everything (that is, your 15% base mitigation becomes 35%, which is tank level) for 6 seconds, refreshes itself if you're being hit up to 30s max total duration. This also helps soloing.

[Elysion]

surging charge is because all classes that get stances/forms/whatever have 1 they must spec into if they want it, other than mercs, but one of the mercs baseline cylinders is pretty much uselses unless you spec down the right tree anyway.

[Mannic]

IMO, Deception would be fine if BW would nerf the pervasive amount of shielding. I never feel underpowered in Deception until I start seeing the glowy-spheres. I don't have a problem with the shielding on tank-spec classes, but I'm getting real tired of them on Sorcs and Sages especially, and on virtually all ranged DPS classes-- especially in conjunction with guard bots.

 

Sins should be a counter to clothy classes and classes that rely on skills with casttimes. We should be blowing up Sorcs and Sages, and being a severe annoyance to the other healing classes with our interrupts and our ability to control fights. I have no problem with use being at a disadvantage against tank specs. I do have a problem with every fight turning into an exercise in killing with a whiffle bat.

 

If they don't change shielding then Maul needs to hit a LOT harder to be worth the force cost, or else be affected by Recklessness so we can better control our burst.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Mannic

[Delillo]

surging charge is because all classes that get stances/forms/whatever have 1 they must spec into if they want it, other than mercs, but one of the mercs baseline cylinders is pretty much uselses unless you spec down the right tree anyway.

 

Isn't that elegant...

 

Who gives a ****. That's the kind of stuff that appears in an early design doc and gets tossed when you start testing.

[Jayvenger]

I would do four simple things. Three apply to our Deception Talents, and the other gives us a Gap Closer.

 

As for the Talents, I would do the following:

 

Expose Weakness is active at ALL times while Stealthed.

 

Deceptive Power also makes the first ability used out of Stealth auto crit.

 

Saber Conduit can now proc once every three seconds. This gives us POTENTIAL (no guarantee that Surging will proc once every 3 seconds) Force regen equal to what Darkness gets with Blood of Sith.

 

As for a gap closer, I feel that there could be another passive (Sorcs get 2 cool ones) that gives Force speed dual functionality. If used while you have no target, it functions normally. Should you use it while targeting something/someone you can attack, it transports you behind the target. But, only if you are within 30 meters or outside 10 meters. If you are outside the range restrictions, functions as normal.

 

That alst one may be fantasy or really hard to pull off...but as a melee class, especially one as squishy as we are, we really need a gap closer. And, given our class mechanics, should put us behind our targets. Before you call OP, who uses Maul without Expose Weakness active?

 

Force speed does not cut it as a gap closer. Two whole freaking seconds of super speed is a joke, especially with a 30 second cooldown. Force Leap/Force Charge make you move just as fast and guide you to your target while doing damage, rooting and having HALF the cooldown.

 

Whether you agree with my idea or desire for a true gap closer, my other three suggestions are not OP and actually give us an opener to use from Stealth. Not that everyone can't see through stealth from 50 feet away now a days. The other one just gives us a source of maybe constant Force regen. Something to fill in between our quick burst every 45 seconds.

[Koolmea]

+1 for the post above...but remember you didnt say anything abut survivability.

[Jayvenger]

+1 for the post above...but remember you didnt say anything abut survivability.

 

Survivability? We're a cloth wearing melee class, we're obviously not meant to have any. Thing is, they forgot to give us the amount of dps to make up for this and our inability to heal ourselves. The fact that they gave Assassins the Darkness spec fairly well screwed Deception. "Oh, we gave that class a Tank spec, the DPS spec doesn't need to be all that good."

 

The whole concept of a light armor wearing tank does not in any way shape or form fit this game. Why? Because there is nothing a Darkness can do defensively that the other tanks wearing Heavy armor can't also. It worked in EQ2 (sorta), because their light armor tanks were masters of dodge tanking. Thing is, in this game, all the tanks have the same exact amount of dodge as each other, same access to shield chance. There's just no real reason for there to be a Darkness spec.

[Maldy]

Survivability? We're a cloth wearing melee class, we're obviously not meant to have any. Thing is, they forgot to give us the amount of dps to make up for this and our inability to heal ourselves. The fact that they gave Assassins the Darkness spec fairly well screwed Deception. "Oh, we gave that class a Tank spec, the DPS spec doesn't need to be all that good."

 

The whole concept of a light armor wearing tank does not in any way shape or form fit this game. Why? Because there is nothing a Darkness can do defensively that the other tanks wearing Heavy armor can't also. It worked in EQ2 (sorta), because their light armor tanks were masters of dodge tanking. Thing is, in this game, all the tanks have the same exact amount of dodge as each other, same access to shield chance. There's just no real reason for there to be a Darkness spec.

 

Yes, exactly that's why madness feels soo strange it just doesn't fit.. a healing spec would have been alot more usefull imo

[Rodobson]

One of the reaosns I love Assassin so much is because the specs are so different.

 

Deception is supposed to be a burst spec with low survivability. People complain about the current survivability but I honestly think it is where it should be. What it needs is more burst, in the form of an offensive opener. Spike is a great opener but there should also be a solid low cooldown basic opener. Maul wants to be that skill, but just isn't quite there yet.

 

I also really like the idea of Force Speed becoming a Shadow Step for a Deception Assassin.

[Technohic]

Mind trap more than one target and extra side effects when recovering from mind trap.

 

More escape combat cloaks; or maybe just a reduced cooldown on shroud and cloak that would actually be effective.

 

I pretty much see them as being squishy but being able to take a single target then fleeing back to stealth. Thats why the multiple mind traps and the escape. Fine weak target, mind trap their partners, get a few seconds to eliminate the weak target while the surrounding targets recover. Escape.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Technohic

[Delillo]

Mind trap more than one target and extra side effects when recovering from mind trap.

 

or along those lines....

 

Darkness currently gets to spec to use spike out of stealth. Deception could spec to allow mind trap on in-combat opponents (still requires stealth). Would make us a little more effective against enemy back-lines.

[Jayvenger]

One of the reaosns I love Assassin so much is because the specs are so different.

 

Deception is supposed to be a burst spec with low survivability. People complain about the current survivability but I honestly think it is where it should be. What it needs is more burst, in the form of an offensive opener. Spike is a great opener but there should also be a solid low cooldown basic opener. Maul wants to be that skill, but just isn't quite there yet.

 

I also really like the idea of Force Speed becoming a Shadow Step for a Deception Assassin.

 

If you look at two of my three first improvements, it does make Maul an opener. Expose Weakness from Stealth and an instant Critical Hit? Considering I've hit mobs AND people with an expose weakness crit and have only done 3k damage, it really isn't all that OP of a suggestion.

 

Another thing that would help Deception would be Bioware fixing our passive so that it...you know...actually works. But instead of being a wimpy 25% increase to the very low BASE damage of shock, have it be a 25% increase AFTER all our mods have been applied. Because seriously, the base damage of all our abilities are pathetic, plain and simple.

[Jayvenger]

or along those lines....

 

Darkness currently gets to spec to use spike out of stealth. Deception could spec to allow mind trap on in-combat opponents (still requires stealth). Would make us a little more effective against enemy back-lines.

 

Or, they could make it so that Mind Trap can only be used while YOU aren't in combat. Just because my TEAM is in combat doesn't mean I am.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Jayvenger

[Delillo]

Or, they could make it so that Mind Trap can only be used while YOU aren't in combat. Just because my TEAM is in combat doesn't mean I am.

 

This has not been my experience. For mind trap to work I have to be stealthed and my target has to be out of combat. It doesn't matter what the rest of my team is doing. (PvP situation)

 

I think what you are describing is that in a PvE environment (especially with companions) the rest of your team (or your companion) can pull you out of stealth and into combat....

 

 

 

One ability I would like to see is simply a long-cast stealth.

 

For example- if you had a 4 second "Hide" ability. This would allow you to restealth even in combat but would be easily stopped or interrupted in any "real" combat situation. Any damage interrupts the cast.

 

Uses: Getting back into stealth in an Illum group. Running around a corner and out of sight in a WZ.

 

Basically if you aren't being targetted and damaged, deception should be able to restealth without having to blow a big cooldown.

[Bewtzor]

Mind trap in combat would be an awesome addition, but the cooldown would have to be increased or a good deceptasin would be able to turn any 2v1 into a permanent 1v1. I don't know if the OOC addition would make it worth it to have a cooldown.

 

I think surging charge is what really needs to get buffed, it needs to provide some sort of debuff to the target. Potentially a cast time increase to solidify our role as healer death bombs, or an armor reduction, but really surging charge is just a skill to make our lightsaber look pretty (my opinion) and make discharge hit like a truck.

 

Our suvivability seems to be at an appropriate spot considering our role, but that role of skirmisher and harasser needs to be solidified somehow with either more damage (potentially making us OP) or a situational increase in utility. I.e. the surging charge causing a cast time increase. I would love to be brought along in rated WZ's specifically because deceptasins wreck enemy healers. As it is deception assassins will get picked after marauders/darkness assassins for group play. Our burst is nice, but we don't bring enough to team play.

[Maldy]

does bioware even read this forum?

There are some seriuous candidates in this forum that should be listin to.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Maldy

[Delillo]

Mind trap in combat would be an awesome addition, but the cooldown would have to be increased or a good deceptasin would be able to turn any 2v1 into a permanent 1v1.

 

It would still require stealth. That alone would prevent the situation you are describing.

 

What you would do as a solo assassin is approach a backline- CC one and open on the other, buying you 8 seconds before it becomes a 2v1.

[Jayvenger]

does bioware even read this forum?

There are some seriuous candidates in this forum that should be listin to.

 

Does that include me?

 

Though, I still stand firm on my stance that Deception does not need any more survivability than we already have. You want to last longer? Go Darkness or Madness. What Deception truly needs is better clarification on its purpose in the game. I truly believe this to be moderate Sustained dps (this we already have) with High Burst (we're sitting at average) damage at the trade off of being very squishy.

 

The things holding us back from being able to accomplish High burst damage are a lack of an opener (expose weakness from stealth + auto crit from stealth would remedy this), and crappy resource management (potentially 10 force every 3 seconds would help). Give us these two things, and maybe a true gap closer while not giving us any more survivability (again, if you want this, go Darkness or Madness) would help us come in line with the other dps classes while not being op since how easily we would still go splat.

[Ch_Zero]

does bioware even read this forum?

There are some seriuous candidates in this forum that should be listin to.

 

Some decent ideas for sure.

 

I hope they do read this topic and discuss a few changes even as early as 1.2

 

Thanks for all the input!!!

 

In order to make dps more viable in pve what about increasing the proc rate of surging charge to 35%? along with the suggested utility changes you mentioned?

 

of course it needs to be balanced however.