Gotta love PvE attitude in this game

[Steel_Blackheart]

honestly, on one hand yes with 12-13k Hp you CAN clear HM FPs as a healer, or a dps if you just focus on your dmg stats. And yes you can even clear out Operations in that same gear, but only normal modes.

 

For HM FPs i never cared what the dps health was when i still tanked them, i might groan in mumble about how low it is, but we still got it cleared out reliably (the groan was cause if low on health, prob never been before, so had to explain bosses and they actually watched the cutscenes. Yes when i did them the first time i watched them, but on run 15 of HM FE i got REALLY sick of staring at Malgus' crotch.)

 

As a raid leader for a 16m Run currently, we did a quick run in regular to teach strats, then went to HM, and are going to be on NM next week, and this is our second week in raiding witht he group we have. I did have to pug for some spots last week because it was the first week, and i had a rule, norm mode, 13k HP is fine, HM 15k HP minimum. We had a sniper and a healer with 13k HP that we took and still succeeded, but pretty much every fight they died. You can call it bad playing, but there is a luck factor as well. If you get two mechanics hitting you one after the other, without the base health you are screwed. SOA HM, take a lightning ball to pop it, your on the north side, one healer is there, another on south side, and the healer near you gets mindtrap, then your thrown next. and thats easily a minimum of 13K damage right there, plus SoAs nontank attacks, if that hits you, even at 14k HP your dead.

 

Is it legit to expect health to be a pure dps = health ratio? No. Is it a good idea to make sure new people have the health to absorb slight screw ups and just plain bad luck? Yes.

[Veriu]

people are stupid.

 

As long as you don't die every 30 seconds, you could have 1 hp if it meant you did more damage..

 

but you can't live through most fights with 1 hp...it just doesn't work.

 

annihilation droid: You may get hit by the adds during the turrets. You will get hit by missile salvo unless you are hiding behind the turret BEFORE he even starts casting it...which means, you aren't dpsing = zero dps....hell, we don't even hide behind the turrets at all anymore, just have the healers heal us through the damage from missile salvo (yes, that is in NiM)

Gharj: Sorry, you probably will get 1 stack of lava debuff moving between islands. Every once in a while he knocks everyone back (which does damage as well).

Pylons: Unless your tank is incredibly lucky, there will be at least one group of the three mobs that spawns and instantly stuns him while his get out of stun move is on cooldown. during this time, you may get hit by an dd.

Council: you are going to get hit, you are soloing a mob.

Soa: You are going to get hit. fall damage during drop phases. Lightning balls (which deal like 10k + 7k tick damage in 8 man NiM). Cyclone damage (getting thrown around the room into walls and taking damage. & if you are mindtrapped you have a dot that ticks for a small amount.

 

Bonethrasher: you will get cleaved sometime in the fight (this does about 14-15k on my sorc in NiM). you will get knocked up (this hits everyone for about 80% of their health on NiM). You may have an add on you as well depending on what strat you are using.

Jarg & Sorno: do i really need to go into this? Random damage everywhere, no way to avoid it and of course the great missile + rail shot combo that sometimes one shots people with over 18k health.

Foreman: If you are good, you might never take damage from him...but the adds might get a shot at you while DPS is burning them down.

Fabricator: Mines will hit you. Mines will stun you. + ticking bomb on random raid member that hits for about 3/4 of a person's health in NiM

Karagga: missile shot to whole raid. Gravity well will suck you in, if you are the target then you'll take damage at the end.

 

Note: all percentages of health are assuming someone is around 18K fully buffed....if you have 14k fully buffed, it doesn't matter how "good" you think you are, the first knock up from bonethrasher will kill you.

 

I'm very very sorry, but if you don't have enough HP, then you are going to die in the first minute of the fight and therefore you are just taking a space that could be filled with someone else. I'd rather bring a guy with 18k health that just used basic attack the entire fight, than the most pro awesome godly perfect player with 13k...cause the awesome guy is going to die almost immediately to unavoidable damage and you deal zero damage while you're dead.....

 

 

you wanna go there? fine, lets go there

 

Ok, I'll go there

 

Lightning balls Soa, normal mode: NN to get there anyway, hardmode? shield, claok of pain, undying rage -> survive on regular base, we cleared all NM bosses in a complete random setup before this grp later formed my current raiding guild in greens/blues. The soa throws for 10 secs or so can be easily survived if you didn't go in extremly low on health to begin with.

 

Shield, cloak of pain, undying rage, etc...all have long cds. Sorry, you can't use them if for some reason you get two lightning balls at you in a row (due to great bugs), or due to it just being your turn again.

 

With 14k health, assuming that you used shield (which reduces damage by 25%) so you take 7.5k...assuming no ticks before or after the explosion, if there is one tick you'll live with 1,250 HP...if you take two ticks, you insta die even though you used your defensive cooldown.

 

Bubble seems to be around a 4k shield or so for most sorc healers. Putting our great 14k health guy at 18k health, which means he'll live if he has his defensive cooldown up...he'll live if he takes 0 or 1 tick as well...but if he takes two ticks, he's dead.

 

As for throw, the only time I've ever seen someone die to this, is lightning ball -> throw combo...with enough health you can survive that combo (at least till you are falling and a sorc can lifegrip you to safety...without enough health you can die between bouncing off of walls, in which case there is no way to save the person (you can't heal them while they are bouncing around)

 

It's just BS, skill will always get you through things, bad players not knowing a damn thing about mechanics and such will always resort to ridiculous gear requirements in order to clear stuff so they can act like they know ****... wannabepros, nothing else.

 

Can a good player avoid some damage? yes.

Is there un-avoidable damage? yes.

Do you need to have enough HP to survive unavoidable damage? yes.

If you are pugging someone, do you expect them to be a great player? Of course not, if they were that good, why aren't they in a guild clearing NiM themselves instead of trying to find a pug?? They are probably at best an average player, in which case I can't expect them to avoid all avoidable damage. I'm sorry if you are a super awesome player and never get hit by avoidable damage and are insulted that people who don't know you, assume you might get hit...but grow up.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Veriu

[Instapeace]

In hardmodes, it's a given to everyone that does them, whether they be flashpoints or operations, you will have to take a hit, period. Those hits hit hard, and for you, it means you get instapeaced. Start doing normal difficulty operations, and get some columi pieces..

[Feignz]

People are perfectly right to judge any player's gear from their HP, not just Tanks. All gear comes with a large (and fairly uniform) amount of HP second to your DPS/Healing Stat. If you have low HP, you also MUST be limited in DPS/Healing because of how all gear is set up.

 

If i see a DPS/Healer i judge from their HP because it's pretty accurate as a judgement of their DPS or Healing and i can't be expected to inspect everyone and take notes - it's just so much faster this way. I judge Tanks the same and expect them to have 20-25% more HP than DPS/Healers.

 

I still play with DPS or Healers with 12k HP in HM FPs and never ask anyone to leave. I don't actually care if they are undergeared and need carrying, but my judgement still stands true and accurate from their HP alone; it's obvious, isn't it?

Edited February 24, 2012 by Feignz

[BMBender]

Its utter BS that the best way to gear for PvE is to grind the incredibly boring and frustrating PvP. Right now end game has no focus and it seems like BW only wants to improve PvP over PvE. The constant "balancing" of classes comes from all the whiners in PvP who get beat by a particular class, so the nerf bat hits them which affects their capabilities in PvE.

 

PvP gets all the love right now because their PvE endgame is so minimal that its barely even there. So all the updates come for PvP so that more players have something to do at 50 until PvE gets some love.

 

afraid your mis-informed; not once have I ever even entered into pvp with my main and I've traveled to 6/10 NmM in ops(we're not a raiding guild). This is not a yay me post this is simply a statement that pvp gear brings very little to a pve encounter.

As a side note I don't run pugs with individuals in pvp gear unles they are guildies since they wipe to much imo.

Edited February 24, 2012 by BMBender

[eiefant]

Essless last boss = 7,2k hit sword. Hits randomly twice.

 

7,2k + 7,2k = 14,4k hp

 

geddit?

[Trollzs]

As others have said, hp is just a quick way to quickly estimate the person's level of gear/experience.

 

If I get a DPS with 17k hp, odds are he's pretty well geared, does good DPS, and knows the instance/fights. If I get one with 13-14k, odds are he doesn't know a bunch of the fights, will kill things in the wrong order, and we'll be hitting enrage timers on certain of the tougher fights, unless the other DPS is good, of course.

 

Now, I don't really discriminate on that basis. Skill use prioritization, connection speed, spec, and so on matters a lot. And you never know if you're dealing with a skilled player with a new 50 versus a carried 50 without much clue how to play. But I do find a quick hp check useful to know roughly what to expect. And that helps to set the tone for how I start out the instance. Normally, I play pretty aggressively. My belief is that the job of the puller/tank is to try and kill the group without letting the group catch on that that is what you are trying to do. But with undergeared people, I start out a bit slower, see how they are.

 

Definitely don't want DPS stacking endurance though, as that would be bad, would sort of ruin the metric, since I view the hp scale more as a matter of their overall level of gear rather than stacking a stat they shouldn't be stacking.

 

I promise you someone in 17k hp will not be out DPSing me with 15k.

 

 

Note: all percentages of health are assuming someone is around 18K fully buffed....if you have 14k fully buffed, it doesn't matter how "good" you think you are, the first knock up from bonethrasher will kill you.

 

I'm very very sorry, but if you don't have enough HP, then you are going to die in the first minute of the fight and therefore you are just taking a space that could be filled with someone else. I'd rather bring a guy with 18k health that just used basic attack the entire fight, than the most pro awesome godly perfect player with 13k...cause the awesome guy is going to die almost immediately to unavoidable damage and you deal zero damage while you're dead.....

 

That first statement is false. I have 15k and I never once dropped below 25% health. The second statement makes you lose all credibility.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Trollzs

[Feignz]

I promise you someone in 17k hp will not be out DPSing me with 15k.

Entirely irrelevant and presumptuous.

 

If you are a pug, you are assumed to have the same skill as any other pug. If you have lower HP, it is assumed with good reason that your DPS is lower.

[schnopsnosn]

Entirely irrelevant and presumptuous.

 

If you are a pug, you are assumed to have the same skill as any other pug. If you have lower HP, it is assumed with good reason that your DPS is lower.

 

No it is not.

I am fully Columi-geared with the occasional 58 mods and use a crafted belt, crafted focus, crafted implants and a crafted earpiece.

I barely get over 15k hp(15,7k with merc-buff) but I have 1800 willpower selfbuffed.

 

edit:

http://www.abload.de/img/statsg7lz2.jpg

Edited February 24, 2012 by schnopsnosn

[swpoop]

 

The poster who claimed that Smugglers have less health, i would'ent say thats so. Usually appart from the tanks I have the highest health in our raids. I sit at 1960 Cunning and a little over 20K health raid buffed .... Sure I can swap out my Cunning Stim for an End one and hit 22K health but really whats the point? Dont need it at that point. To be fair though my Smuggler is in mostly Rakata pieces.

 

I would love to see a screen shot of this. We have full Rakata, and BM geared smugglers and they are hitting just a little over 18k.

[Wisz_Rethon]

as melee dps maybe hp would count, since lots of bosses do aoe's around the tank which you can't really avoid without stopping your dps output.

 

As ranged dps hp means exactly .. zip. If you don't know how to avoid damage you could have 200k hp and still die.

 

I lol at people asking for a minimum HP in hmfp's, even in op's...

[Veriu]

That first statement is false. I have 15k and I never once dropped below 25% health. The second statement makes you lose all credibility.

 

really? you go into nightmare ops, with 15k health and never drop below 3,750? You never take more than 11,250 damage in one shot in Nightmare mode????

 

Do you like...hack? cause there are abilities that are random and hit for more than 12k.

 

jorg & sorno missile + rail shot

lightning ball explosion + tick after the ball exploded

bonethrasher knockup

fabricator ticking bomb

 

hell, Gharj pounce if you are melee dps is pretty close (and yes, most guilds have melee dps stay in for pounces...it only hits for 11.5k, which is like 2-3 heals per melee dps)

 

all are random targeted abilities and/or unavoidable damage...and in nightmare mode they all hit for more than 12k. Unless you are saying that you force your healers to have a bubble on you 100% of the time (in which case you're just being a jerk to them), you don't know what you are talking about.

 

Sorry, if you were under the miss-conception that I was talking about normal modes, I wasn't.

 

15k HP is more than enough for normal modes...and is enough for hardmodes as well. It really just isn't enough to deal with random bugs/odd behavior/bad RNG in nightmare.

 

As for my statement about taking a guy with enough HP to live through bonethrasher's knockup or a cleave, or a guy that is just going to die instantly....what's there to debate about?

 

I wouldn't take a guy who was going to just basic attack...but over a 6 min fight, basic attacks will add up. 30 seconds of amazing dps and then 5 min and 30 seconds of a corpse on the ground probably isn't going to equal out.

 

What's the first rule of DPS? Dead bodies do zero dps. If you can't grasp that concept, then nobody can help you.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Veriu

[Nebel]

Seems a lot of people didn't read my original post. I was talking about flashpoints, not ops.

[erruanon]

For those who say that you can survive with 15 k hp on nmm you must be kidding,

We clleared kp 16 man nmm last night.On crusher if you get hit by a boulder you can get oneshot as a clothwearer.Yes i know you can avoid them, but even if you are way ouit of them they will still sometimes hit you.As a merc dps they hit me for 13 k and i have around 35 percent mitigation

[schnopsnosn]

For those who say that you can survive with 15 k hp on nmm you must be kidding,

We clleared kp 16 man nmm last night.On crusher if you get hit by a boulder you can get oneshot as a clothwearer.Yes i know you can avoid them, but even if you are way ouit of them they will still sometimes hit you.As a merc dps they hit me for 13 k and i have around 35 percent mitigation

 

This thread is about HM-FPs and not about normal/HM/NMM-ops so that is completely irrelevant...

[Lyandria]

No it is not.

I am fully Columi-geared with the occasional 58 mods and use a crafted belt, crafted focus, crafted implants and a crafted earpiece.

I barely get over 15k hp(15,7k with merc-buff) but I have 1800 willpower selfbuffed.

 

edit:

http://www.abload.de/img/statsg7lz2.jpg

 

while that is true - your a sorc and your gear has a lower end-baseline (on unmodified T2/T3 Gear) than lets say a merc.

 

as a Merc-Heal i have like 18-19k hp atm - Mix of Columni/Rakata pieces (actually have all Rakata Tokens but cba to exchange all those crap Mods in there atm)

 

using 2 End Use/Proc-Relics (could exchange 1 for a Matrix Cube)

crafted Ear-Piece and 1 crafted Implant (+ 1 Rakata Implant) - Orange Belt/Bracers (using 58 Armor/58 Mod ~ same as crafted Rakata with augment)

[schnopsnosn]

while that is true - your a sorc and your gear has a lower end-baseline (on unmodified T2/T3 Gear) than lets say a merc.

 

as a Merc-Heal i have like 18-19k hp atm - Mix of Columni/Rakata pieces (actually have all Rakata Tokens but cba to exchange all those crap Mods in there atm)

 

using 2 End Use/Proc-Relics (could exchange 1 for a Matrix Cube)

crafted Ear-Piece and 1 crafted Implant (+ 1 Rakata Implant) - Orange Belt/Bracers (using 58 Armor/58 Mod ~ same as crafted Rakata with augment)

 

I have to say no to this.

If I used Rakata-implants, earpiece and at least a Columi-focus I would be up at 17k hp because the crafted gear has just not enough endurance on it.

But the damage-stats on them are so seductive...

[Ilintar]

@ OP: that kind of attitude is annoying elitist stuff. 14.2k HP is more than enough as a DPS for HM FP, sure, you're probably not going to be at the top of the foodchain, but the FP should be still doable. Problem is, a lot of people are just cherry-picking the teams to get them through the flashpoints quickly and forget the times when they themselves ran HMs with 14k HP.

 

I'd say the cutoff point is around 13k HP. Anyone below that is probably not geared well enough and can quickly remedy this with one quick session at the GTN terminal.

[Nebel]

I did KUS and Directive 7 HM with a 12k hp healer who've never been there (had to show him where to pick up the quests). It went almost perfectly.

Then I did FE HM with a 14.5k hp Juggernaut tank & 12k hp healer. Didn't work as good as first two, but we cleared it without too many deaths.

 

Sure, more hp does help, but it's not as important for dps (especially ranged dps) as much as it's important for tanks and to some degree, healers.

 

Yes, I know that better gear does give you more hp, but people should not underestimate those who have "below acceptable hp". I've paid about 1.5mil credits for mods only in my weapon, and it doesn't grant me very much hp, but it boost my damage by a lot (it's a tiny bit below Columi grade weapon).

[Rabix]

it's understandable that a pug group wouldn't want to take you on a HM FP with 9k health as a level 50 (seen more than a few of these)

 

at the same times, it's really up to them where they draw their own cutoff

 

i think 15k is faaaar more than enough, but that's obviously not their opinion

find another group?

[Jurugar]

HP is an indicator of overall gear level. You dont have to stack endurance as you gear up - you get it naturally (and unavoidably) the better your gear gets. As a DPS shadow I have almost 18k unbuffed HP, and that's with me actively trying to purge it from my gear in favor of better itemized mods/enhancements.

 

Aside from the pure "you can take more damage" aspect, higher hp aka better gear also indicates a higher level of experience with your class, and with the game as a whole. Who would you guess had played their class longer - the guy with 13k hp in fresh lvl 50 blues and greens, or the guy with 16k hp in full columi?

 

And before anyone takes this the wrong way, go find a dictionary and look up the word "indicator".

[Swanzo]

Hard mode flashpoints are so easy me and my friends do them with 3 people and a companion. We could fill in just about any dps in that fourth slot and it doesn't matter.

 

I see no reason to be so picky, if your competent and not running around in blues you'll be fine.

[BMBender]

thats seriously retarded, why does the HP matter when the healer keeps you alive anyways?, i mean of course a boss is gonna come around and 1 hit kill you....., but isnt that why we read the fourms so we can learn how not to die when we cross that part?

 

on ajunta pall i havent been able to get a full PvE group together to run a HM FP even in my guild, i find this very sad and depressing......i just want the rewards at the end of the flashpoint so i can Move on to operations, i havent even finished esseles yet with a group of rag tag let's goers yet.

 

ok gonna try to be helpfull; as counter intuitive as it may seem DO NOT DO Esselss HM 1st as it's one of the harder HM's(real tight enrage timers) for repubs(don't blame me I didn't design it)

 

Your best bet for initial gearing via HM's is farm Taral V and False Emporer the two easiest HM's(for repub) then Kaon under siege after that Malestrom prison and Battle for illum(if your willing to skip the wave boss, forget name, you can do this at the FE, T V gear lvl) and or ess

Edited February 24, 2012 by BMBender

[ViperI]

HP, while not an exact or scientific indicator of your gear level, is a good substitute. You should never stack endurance over your DPS stats when choosing gear, but the higher DPS stat gear you have, the higher your HP will be simply because the better gear also comes with endurance.

 

Let's take a hypothetical example. 2 Sentinels, one with 17k HP, the other with 14k HP. Assuming both are stacking the correct stats for DPS, the player with 17k will do better DPS than the player with 14k. It's not that he has more HP that allows him to do more DPS, it's that he has higher quality gear overall that all his stats are better. HP is simply the one variable that other people can see. I can't see your power/crit stats unless I manually inspect you, but then I have to get into considering things such as primary stat vs power vs crit/surge and it's just too complicated to make a quick decision.

 

You also have to consider that many encounters have AOEs, stray agro and other abilities that do damage to more people than just the tank. HP on DPS players is very important because a dead DPS is the lowest dps of all. I'd rather have a 2nd tank thank a DPS that dies 10 seconds into a boss fight.

Edited February 24, 2012 by ViperI

[MashTactics]

Shouldn`t this be direct proportional. Indirect means the more health you have the less dps you do.

 

No. That would be inversely proportional.