2/22/2012 -> Can we get an update on where the Combat Log is?

[Perkunas]

WE ARE?!

 

Don't worry... Most of us who actually care about the combat log will likely be gone before it ever sees the light of day. Sadly, I see nothing on the horizon worth a damn PVE-wise. GW2 is going to be a zergfest joke of a game.

[Forsbacka]

Meters, Logs and Addons are NOT in the future of gaming, sorry!

 

Proof of this comes in 2 titles that are following a similar path.

 

Darkfall released a niche gamea few years ago that has an action style combat that doesn't even have targeting in it.

 

A title being released in May - Tera, which has a huge commercial budget and a subscription based model has further developed it. You don't tab a target.

 

People have grown sick and tired of macro snoozefest. They are on the way out my friend. Do some research. I guarantee you games going into development today, are following similar models, because the day of the lazy nerd that likes to copy and paste a 2 button macro and bang their head off the KB for a win are coming to a close in the very near future.

 

Trust me - no company is ever going to follow the commercial succes of WoW until a different model is used. This model is worn out and dried up and dead. Gaming companies know this. They also know that there are 2 million gamers that will buy absolutley any new release as it is released because they are searching for something epic.

 

But all of these games have 3 month lifespans. Why? Because they are all too easy. macros make games easy. Add-ons make games easy. Parsers make figuring out encounters easy. Just because Blizzard allowed them and made them popular, doesn't mean it was a great decision for the gaming industry. It just means tons of gamers have become gimped over the last 7 years.

 

But these companies arent stupid. They know you will spend your 50 bucks and then give them 30 for 2 months if they advertise the game right. They cash in and when they make their money back they could care less about making a great game. They use you like a shake and bake bag to make a profit.

 

The last thing on a companies mind is to make a truly epic MMO. They would rather make a couple dollars.

 

We are not talking about addons here, but combat logs and parsers are past, present and future of MMORPGs, its just a tool to analyze the fights and to identify players that aint palying at a level they are supposed to. Logs or meters has been in almost every MMORPG since UO in a form or another, baseline features or mod based, also in your belowed EQ1.

 

Edit: what comes to Darkfall and Tera, those has different combat system and numbers doesnt show same role than in generic MMOs, but sicneTOR is one its same as saying modern warfare 3 doesnt have combat logs.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Forsbacka

[Perkunas]

We are not talking about addons here, but combat logs and parsers are past, present and future of MMORPGs, its just a tool to analyze the fights and to identify players that aint palying at a level they are supposed to. Logs or meters has been in almost every MMORPG since UO in a form or another, baseline features or mod based, also in your belowed EQ1.

 

People who pretend that EQ 1 was better than Warcraft are downright insane. There's no other way to describe it. Warcraft in beta was far better than EQ.

 

Real EQ'ers remember this post....

 

Goodbye EQ, Hello WoW

EQ died months ago, but we're tenacious. Like kids with a can, we've played "kick the dead horse" night after night. Then we realized that we'd have more fun eating the EQ CD's than playing what they contain.

 

Afterlife will no longer be playing EQ. We'd rather watch TV than play EQ. Even if the TV is off. We'd rather go fishing than play EQ. Even without beer.

 

Making the decision easy is World of Warcraft. While EQ is plagued by bugs, with every quest broken to begin and end game encounters working only by accident, WoW, even in beta, is essentially bug free. I've personally done hundreds of quests in WoW, and they all worked. I haven't done that many working quests in EQ, and I've been playing it for 6 years.

 

World of Warcraft has thus neatly replaced our previous addiction: sleeping.

 

Afterlife is now a World of Warcraft guild. http://www.afterlifeguild.org/

[GamewizX]

The last thing on a companies mind is to make a truly epic MMO. They would rather make a couple dollars.

 

You have some failed logic there. If a company truly wants to make a profit, they'll make an epic MMO. Especially when it comes to an MMO, as the profits are in the staying power of subscribers, unlike a game like Modern Warfare where it's all about initial box sales.

 

You seem to think that a great game and a great profit can't coexist or something... That's completely opposite from the truth. And by great game I mean a financially successful one, as "fun" is all based upon personal opinion.

 

What your definition of a "truly epic MMO" is obviously disagrees with what the majority of the people like, because games like WoW, EQ, TOR, ie, the more traditional themepark MMOs, are the ones inherently more successful because gaming companies see a larger profit in them. And they only see a larger profit in them solely because that's what people buy, which means that is what people enjoy.

 

If the more traditional themepark MMO model is such a horrible model, game companies wouldn't be competing so fiercely to control that corner of the gaming market. Why don't you see companies pursuing more sandbox games or games that try to truly innovate? Because that's not where the big money is.

 

I know, I know... how dare a game company try to make money, amirite?

[Chewpaco]

Don't worry... Most of us who actually care about the combat log will likely be gone before it ever sees the light of day. Sadly, I see nothing on the horizon worth a damn PVE-wise. GW2 is going to be a zergfest joke of a game.

 

Perfect example of a gamer that buys every commercial title in search of something epic.

 

To say that the future of mmorpg gaming is going to be the same garbage that's being peddled now is just crazy. People have played the same game with a different name, different graphics - for 7 years. None of them has ever put a dent in WoW.

 

EQ - experienced the same thing from 1998-2004. It was the giant elephant in the gaming room. Many games tried to copy a similar model, but were always the red headed step child.

 

Trust me - when the "Great New Game" hits - it will look like nothing you have seen before.

 

That includes style of combat, ease of use, encounter difficulty, creature comfort feartures like your macro's logs and parsers.

 

Then when you look back - you will remember your first game, like I do. You will argue with the kids whose first experience gaming was the new type of model. And you will educate them. As I have educated you.

[Perkunas]

Perfect example of a gamer that buys every commercial title in search of something epic.

 

To say that the future of mmorpg gaming is going to be the same garbage that's being peddled now is just crazy. People have played the same game with a different name, different graphics - for 7 years. None of them has ever put a dent in WoW.

 

EQ - experienced the same thing from 1998-2004. It was the giant elephant in the gaming room. Many games tried to copy a similar model, but were always the red headed step child.

 

Trust me - when the "Great New Game" hits - it will look like nothing you have seen before.

 

That includes style of combat, ease of use, encounter difficulty, creature comfort feartures like your macro's logs and parsers.

 

Then when you look back - you will remember your first game, like I do. You will argue with the kids whose first experience gaming was the new type of model. And you will educate them. As I have educated you.

 

 

I played EQ, mate. Read what I wrote before you go on some mindless tirade. I played until PoP as a raiding Cleric. What I am after is not what everybody is after. I'm looking for the next competitive raiding-based MMO and I had hoped that maybe TOR would be it considering Warcraft has consistently stabbed it's raiding community in the back since the merger with Activision.

 

Also, I've only subscribed to MMOs which appealed to me. EQ, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Warcraft, TOR.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Perkunas

[Forsbacka]

Perfect example of a gamer that buys every commercial title in search of something epic.

 

To say that the future of mmorpg gaming is going to be the same garbage that's being peddled now is just crazy. People have played the same game with a different name, different graphics - for 7 years. None of them has ever put a dent in WoW.

 

.

 

This thread is not about future of MMORPG gaming, its about combat logs and TOR which is exactly like WoW except lot easier and we hope it would change, difficulty level that is, game is already what it is.

[Forsbacka]

I played EQ, mate. Read what I wrote before you go on some mindless banter. I played until PoP as a raiding Cleric. What I am after is not what everybody is after. I'm looking for the next competitive raiding-based MMO and I had hoped that maybe TOR would be it considering Warcraft has consistently stabbed it's raiding community in the back since the merger with Activision.

 

Stabbed how? I kinda understand that, making normal and HC modes of same bosses was a big mistake for rading community but HC modes still provided max challenge on many bosses, was it worth it anymore like it was in Sunwell or old naxx? Not for me. Just curious on whats your take on that backstabbing comment?

[Perkunas]

Stabbed how? I kinda understand that, making normal and HC modes of same bosses was a big mistake for rading community but HC modes still provided max challenge on many bosses, was it worth it anymore like it was in Sunwell or old naxx? Not for me. Just curious on whats your take on that backstabbing comment?

 

It first started happening with "Echoes of Doom" flat 30% health nerfs to all raid bosses in BC. From there they decided to dump Naxx on us again and that wouldn't have bothered me save for the fact that we had 2 "Onyxia-esque" single-boss dungeons beyond that in the first tier. I rather enjoyed 3 drake Sarth, and Malygos. They started handing epics like candy in heroics and from the TONS of badges people were getting from them. By the time we got to TOGC they were handing out tier gear that allowed people to skip the first 2 tiers of the expansion by just running 5-man dungeons. They also decided that Ulduar's difficulty was a mistake and they nerfed it into the ground. The only 2 fights worth a damn after the nerfs were zero light Yog and Algalon(25).

 

During Wrath Blizzard decided to take a page from EQ and many of us raiders had hoped was lost to the annals of history. This was the time limit/attempt limit bosses. Introducing an "artificial difficulty" that was based not on mechanics of the fight but by the limited amount you could see the actual boss. I think it culminated with the scaling buff in Icecrown and once again allowing people freshly capped to waltz around the top tier content where they didn't belong because of welfare gear. Not to mention attempting to even out 10/25 man content by handing out the same gear and attempting to balance the modes evenly WHICH STILL DOESN'T WORK.

 

Not to mention the shifting of raiding philosophies of class roles and niches. Bring the player not the class drove me insane, but that's my personal issue.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Perkunas

[Forsbacka]

It first started happening with "Echoes of Doom" flat 30% health nerfs to all raid bosses in BC. From there they decided to dump Naxx on us again and that wouldn't have bothered me save for the fact that we had 2 "Onyxia-esque" single-boss dungeons beyond that in the first tier. I rather enjoyed 3 drake Sarth, and Malygos. They started handing epics like candy in heroics and from the TONS of badges people were getting from them. By the time we got to TOGC they were handing out tier gear that allowed people to skip the first 2 tiers of the expansion by just running 5-man dungeons. They also decided that Ulduar's difficulty was a mistake and they nerfed it into the ground. The only 2 fights worth a damn after the nerfs were zero light Yog and Algalon(25).

 

During Wrath Blizzard decided to take a page from EQ and many of us raiders had hoped was lost to the annals of history. This was the time limit/attempt limit bosses. Introducing an "artificial difficulty" that was based not on mechanics of the fight but by the limited amount you could see the actual boss. I think it culminated with the scaling buff in Icecrown and once again allowing people freshly capped to waltz around the top tier content where they didn't belong because of welfare gear. Not to mention attempting to even out 10/25 man content by handing out the same gear and attempting to balance the modes evenly WHICH STILL DOESN'T WORK.

 

Not to mention the shifting of raiding philosophies of class roles and niches. Bring the player not the class drove me insane, but that's my personal issue.

 

 

I agree on what you said, just wanted to hear specifics on that backstabbing part. I raided myself from first days of MC up to Algalon and more casually in ICC and didnt raid in cata anymore. I hated the gear handouts, and having different difficulty levels, there was really anything special feel on downing same boss on hardmode that other people were downing on normal like it was in Sunwell or old naxx, 4 HM comes to mind. But you have to admit that there was few veryhard hardmodes in ulduar, lich king with low buff and on top HC ragnaros, it wasnt just worth it anymore cause everyone was gettting same gear and doing same bosses on normal.

[Arnathis]

Perfect example of a gamer that buys every commercial title in search of something epic.

 

To say that the future of mmorpg gaming is going to be the same garbage that's being peddled now is just crazy. People have played the same game with a different name, different graphics - for 7 years. None of them has ever put a dent in WoW.

 

EQ - experienced the same thing from 1998-2004. It was the giant elephant in the gaming room. Many games tried to copy a similar model, but were always the red headed step child.

 

Trust me - when the "Great New Game" hits - it will look like nothing you have seen before.

 

That includes style of combat, ease of use, encounter difficulty, creature comfort feartures like your macro's logs and parsers.

 

Then when you look back - you will remember your first game, like I do. You will argue with the kids whose first experience gaming was the new type of model. And you will educate them. As I have educated you.

 

It's very possible that the next great game will break the tank/dps/healing trifecta and do something different with its combat and leveling. Mark my words though, it will contain a combat log, damage meters and addons. Many many many people enjoy being able to customize a game to their liking. It's a different level of immersion and adds another layer of depth for those that want it. I log on to wow and my UI is exactly how I want it and I know nobody elses is exactly the same. I've put work into it. I use other peoples addons that they created but I set them up and made them work how I wanted.

 

As I said before, gamers know what information they want and they know how they want it displayed better than any company does. Let them decide where their buffs are and how they look. Let them decide how big or small their mini map is and where its located. Let them decide if their dots are displayed as icons with counters or as a set of expiring bars. Let them use an auction house addon to manage tons of auctions if they wanna farm currency.

[JediElf]

I guess...in the end...it always boils down to this simple thing....

 

"I want to have something, that you can not have. By having that item/gear/title I am, a better gamer than you."

 

...for some this is true, but not for all. However it will always be a part, of human nature.

[Perkunas]

I guess...in the end...it always boils down to this simple thing....

 

"I want to have something, that you can not have. By having that item/gear/title I am, a better gamer than you."

 

...for some this is true, but not for all. However it will always be a part, of human nature.

 

Nah, I was fine with Ulduar. I simply wanted people to have to work for a goal and not be handed loot for practically logging on. If you want the gear COMPLETE THE CONTENT.

[JediElf]

Nah, I was fine with Ulduar. I simply wanted people to have to work for a goal and not be handed loot for practically logging on. If you want the gear COMPLETE THE CONTENT.

 

That's a complete exaggeration. I've never played an MMO, where I get a full set of purple, for just logging in. Not once has that ever happened.

 

Name one game, where that is true.

Edited February 25, 2012 by JediElf

[Perkunas]

That's a complete exaggeration. I've never played an MMO, where I get a full set of purple, for just logging in. Not once has that ever happened.

 

Name one game, where that is true.

 

You've never run the faceroll 5-man "heroic" dungeons in Warcraft then. If you weren't fully decked out in epics 2 weeks after you capped you weren't trying.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Perkunas

[Forsbacka]

That's a complete exaggeration. I've never played an MMO, where I get a full set of purple, for just logging in. Not once has that ever happened.

 

Name one game, where that is true.

 

 

Well ToR operations on all difficulty levels are pretty close to it, just go raiding whatever peoplein guild, clear nightmare modes in a evening get purple pixels. There was supposed to be 3 difficulty levels to cater for all kinda raiders, but there is only one.

[JediElf]

Well ToR operations on all difficulty levels are pretty close to it, just go raiding whatever peoplein guild, clear nightmare modes in a evening get purple pixels. There was supposed to be 3 difficulty levels to cater for all kinda raiders, but there is only one.

 

I'm not even off of Hutta yet.

 

if it makes you feel any better, I may never get to see those 'free' purple pixles. I play with a dear, life long friend, and i'm a little shy of playing with anyone else....it's just the two of us.

 

Are you happy now?

Edited February 25, 2012 by JediElf

[Perkunas]

Actually I have, and never once was I given a full set of gear when my que come up. Also for some players those heroics are not 'facerolls', as they may be for a 'pro raider' such as yourself.

 

People play at different levels in MMOs, and it's a balancing act for devs to keep everyone happy. it's not easy, but it's made easier when gamers respect each others play styles. When raiders sneer and look down upon normal gamers, it's not good for the community, and for the health of the game.

 

People play for there own reasons, not for the reasons of other people.

 

Balance is what we need.

 

You don't hand out current raid tier loot for doing 5-man content. The reason gear score came into being was because if you weren't geared to the teeth in Wrath you were either not trying or just freshly capped. People had to weed out the folks in lesser gear from their faceroll pugs because they didn't want to carry people.

[JediElf]

Never mind...I'm done with this....time to move on....

 

I'll just enjoy the game as I see fit. I have faith that the devs will stear the game in the right direction, and with consideration for all gamers, at all levels.

 

As for some of you, I'm not sure what to say, but I hope that some day you find what your looking for....

 

May the force be with you.

Edited February 25, 2012 by JediElf

[Achraya]

Meters, Logs and Addons are NOT in the future of gaming, sorry!

 

A title being released in May - Tera, which has a huge commercial budget and a subscription based model has further developed it. You don't tab a target.

 

.

 

Tera has combat logs and it has a system in place where you can set up your abilties to be used in a certain order by hitting a hotkey. For example my Sorc will use painful trap then hit 4 to use my flame pillar then hit 4 again to jump back. It's basically an interactive macro. Soooo....I guess the future is combat logs and interactive macros?

[Forsbacka]

I'm not even off of Hutta yet.

 

if it makes you feel any better, I may never get to see those 'free' purple pixles. I play with a dear, life long friend, and i'm a little shy of playing with anyone else....it's just the two of us.

 

Are you happy now?

 

Yeah, well this thread aint really aimed for you then.

[spcdog]

You don't hand out current raid tier loot for doing 5-man content. The reason gear score came into being was because if you weren't geared to the teeth in Wrath you were either not trying or just freshly capped. People had to weed out the folks in lesser gear from their faceroll pugs because they didn't want to carry people.

 

But damage meters -- and then eventually the armory/gearscore -- are the entire reason they had to start handing out welfare epics in WoW. People who used to have a chance at experiencing the content were being systematically blocked from it unless they had high-end gear. It's a vicious cycle that this game is doomed to repeat if the devs don't learn something from it.

[Forsbacka]

Tera has combat logs and it has a system in place where you can set up your abilties to be used in a certain order by hitting a hotkey. For example my Sorc will use painful trap then hit 4 to use my flame pillar then hit 4 again to jump back. It's basically an interactive macro. Soooo....I guess the future is combat logs and interactive macros?

 

So will GW2. Maybe he lives further in the future, i mean he raided 40 years ago as he said earlier so why not 40 years in future also and tell us how games are gonna be then.

[reaperkeepet]

WE ARE?!

 

What is up with Bass? Unrpofessional.

Edited February 25, 2012 by reaperkeepet

[Forsbacka]

But damage meters -- and then eventually the armory/gearscore -- are the entire reason they had to start handing out welfare epics in WoW. People who used to have a chance at experiencing the content were being systematically blocked from it unless they had high-end gear. It's a vicious cycle that this game is doomed to repeat if the devs don't learn something from it.

 

Not really, it was due other issues. Combat logs and meters has been in almost every MMORPG game for last 15 years in a form or another and will continue to do so, it didnt lead into those problems in other games either.

 

WoW had dmg meters in molten core already so why it got miss used by some people in WoTLK was due other issues. Gearscore was a good tool to see gear potential fast on people when forming pug raids, reason why it was missused was cause there shoulndt have been pug raids in the first place, when you give those tools to bad nonraiders, they might blow in the face.