Same gender relationships clarifications?

[Raiellyn]

There is no bias here and no bigotry. Unless of course someones personal preference in sexual orientation is somehow evil now? Notice in this thread I have not stated nor asked for "the gays" to be turned off or excluded. I have not asked for ANYTHING except the right to choose the orientation of my character and THAT has been met with open hostility and downright rudeness.

 

Main contention with that; there is absolutely no precedent for such a thing in the game. Every sort of interaction has the choices there, and you as the player select which one represents your character. That is the system currently in the game, and it works. If I don't want my character to be a murderer, I don't make her a murderer. Likewise, if I don't want her to be straight, I (would, if I could. ) just avoid flirting with men. Simple. Easy. No extra nonsense needed.

 

The toggle/preference selector/whatever is an entirely unique option. I could potentially get behind the idea of selecting it at character creation, but that is just needlessly limiting. What if as the character grows, I suddenly decide that the sexuality no longer applies? It would be essentially similar to choosing Light-side or Dark-side at character creation. You choose it once you start, and you're stuck with just those choices.

 

And even worse, what about new players? I made my Jedi Knight at launch, intending to play her as straight all the way through the game while waiting for SGRA's, but then I met Kira. Her chemistry with my character was spectacular, and now I've since changed my concept to suit that arc should it ever be made available. Under the preference system, I would've selected straight with no knowledge of my companions whatsoever, and then either be stuck out of what I want, or forced to restart and redo those first twenty levels.

 

No filter whatsoever; people get all the options, and can pick and choose which ones they wish to experience. No one is ever locked out of certain content. At worst, some people are offended by the options given, but are not forced to choose them under any circumstances.

 

Filtered; people get the option to get rid of certain content by selecting an orientation at creation, for whatever personal reason. As these are people, there will be mistakes made. People will get locked out of content that they may wish to experience, with no way to rectify that beyond rerolling the character or sucking it up and moving on.

 

Both have benefits, but the latter has a massive drawback to it.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Raiellyn

[Kioma]

Filtered; people get the option to get rid of certain content by selecting an orientation at creation, for whatever personal reason. As these are people, there will be mistakes made. People will get locked out of content that they may wish to experience, with no way to rectify that beyond rerolling the character or sucking it up and moving on.

 

Both have benefits, but the latter has a massive drawback to it.

 

It has another drawback to it. It directly brings the concept of sexual orientation into the core of the game. There are plenty of people out there who do not care about romance arcs, but may try them for something to do between PvP and raiding.

 

The only purpose to a sexuality selection would be to facilitate people blocking out certain forms of romance option, when such a thing is patently unnecessary (you just select which flirts you want to pursue). Putting a sexuality orientation option into character creation forces every single player to determine their sexuality, whether they want to or not. I'm sure there are plenty of people who'd oppose it purely on the basis that they couldn't be bothered deciding that stuff.

[Raiellyn]

It has another drawback to it. It directly brings the concept of sexual orientation into the core of the game. There are plenty of people out there who do not care about romance arcs, but may try them for something to do between PvP and raiding.

 

The only purpose to a sexuality selection would be to facilitate people blocking out certain forms of romance option, when such a thing is patently unnecessary (you just select which flirts you want to pursue). Putting a sexuality orientation option into character creation forces every single player to determine their sexuality, whether they want to or not. I'm sure there are plenty of people who'd oppose it purely on the basis that they couldn't be bothered deciding that stuff.

 

I worded myself quite poorly, it seems. That was the point I was trying to get at, though to a much lesser extent. Quite a few people playing the game on RP servers, I'm sure, haven't quite thought out their characters to such an extent that they would be willing to forever commit that character to a set-in-stone classification.

 

The selection directly adds nothing, with its only purpose being to limit the content available by the player's consent. The only real benefit is for people who want to actively limit their own content, which the game already provides an option for (that being the conversation wheel of DOOOOOOOOOOOMiness. ). Meanwhile, it has the potential for a nasty negative effect on player-choice being forced into a mold (how many of us here started characters with one idea, then suddenly changed our minds ten levels in? I've changed my mind enough for ten, I assure you.)

Edited March 1, 2012 by Raiellyn

[ProfessorCaprion]

It's not rude to want to play by your own preferences.

 

I know a similar example has been used before, but I'm going to try this, anyway.

 

It's absolutely fine to not want to play a homosexual or bisexual character. Nobody that wants SGRA wants it forced upon people. You can even support the inclusion of SGRA without wanting to take part in it, yourself (as some people have chimed in with).

 

However, as a few have said above, there's no precedent for it. To put this into perspective, I'll use myself as an example:

 

I hate PVP with a burning passion. The whole concept makes me probably as uncomfortable as the concept of SGRA makes some people, for my own personal reasons that I won't espouse here. The idea that there should be a sexual preference toggle of any sort would be paramount to me saying "I dislike PVP and want no part of it. I need a toggle that removes the PVP quest terminals and the little PVP logo thing in the corner of my screen."

Edited March 1, 2012 by ProfessorCaprion

[Kioma]

I hate PVP with a burning passion.

 

/fistbump

[natashina]

I know a similar example has been used before, but I'm going to try this, anyway.

 

It's absolutely fine to not want to play a homosexual or bisexual character. Nobody that wants SGRA wants it forced upon people. You can even support the inclusion of SGRA without wanting to take part in it, yourself (as some people have chimed in with).

 

However, as a few have said above, there's no precedent for it. To put this into perspective, I'll use myself as an example:

 

I hate PVP with a burning passion. The whole concept makes me probably as uncomfortable as the concept of SGRA makes some people, for my own personal reasons that I won't espouse here. The idea that there should be a sexual preference toggle of any sort would be paramount to me saying "I dislike PVP and want no part of it. I need a toggle that removes the PVP quest terminals and the little PVP logo thing in the corner of my screen."

 

QFT:cool:

[AquaSky]

Here's how I see it: I like guys. I don't have any interest in romancing women. Grouping with male players, it seems there are dozens of flirt options for female NPCs. I'd much rather be able to say at character creation "Preference: Male" than to spend 50 levels ignoring all the lady Flirt prompts. I support including some means to indicate which gender your character is interested in order to customize the prompts, toggle or otherwise.

[Kioma]

Here's how I see it: I like guys. I don't have any interest in romancing women. Grouping with male players, it seems there are dozens of flirt options for female NPCs. I'd much rather be able to say at character creation "Preference: Male" than to spend 50 levels ignoring all the lady Flirt prompts. I support including some means to indicate which gender your character is interested in order to customize the prompts, toggle or otherwise.

 

Fair enough. It's a good point. I personally think it's no more necessary than a toggle to turn off all Dark Side options, but your opinion is yours to have.

[MamaSok]

Thanks for all the opinions and non-flame answers to my question!

 

 

I have another issue with choosing that sort of thing at character creation. What of all the people with max lvl toons already? Will there be a default setting that everyone already in game will have? If the default setting is "ogra" there's a TON of ppl there that will be restarting their toons. Now tbh I think the default setting would likely be "all romance arcs" so they aren't excluding anyone in game from a romance they wish to have. That's still leaving a ton of people, sgr and ogr restarting their characters to have only the romance options they are interested in.

 

IF they were to put in a selection, it would likely be in game. Hopefully that's a big enough IF for it to never happen. I strongly agree with Kioma on this. It's really unnecessary, and far too simple to ignore options you don't wish to choose. I don't see much of a difference between ignoring flirt prompts you don't want, and ignoring other options. I refuse to choose any of the goody-goody options, my SI is a dark sadistic creature, and I ignore the modesty, kindness, and merciful options every time. Doesn't make me frustrated that I keep getting the options, I just giggle and think "NOT TODAY!" *selects shock*

[Kioma]

...how having the option to flirt as a female Consular with your companion, picking something else each time it comes up, and eventually having those options stop appearing limits someone's ability to play their character.

 

When in actual fact going through and making those choices and consciously avoiding the options you don't want is playing your character (from a conversation mechanic standpoint).

[Suaine]

Considering that we know absolutely nothing about how this is going to be implemented I've been trying to think of ideas, horrible or great, that could occur to designers in the creation process. If they really are still in the concept stage, maybe collecting stuff that we do or don't want can help.

 

So.

 

Not-quite-worst case scenario: Token neutral companions - one male, one female. I mean, we've all thought of it, right? But! I have managed to think of a worse idea! What if they also made them a species that didn't speak basic, so they could get around all that pesky voice acting?

[Krayna]

So.. slippery slope argument followed by a red herring.

 

There is no bias here and no bigotry. Unless of course someones personal preference in sexual orientation is somehow evil now? Notice in this thread I have not stated nor asked for "the gays" to be turned off or excluded. I have not asked for ANYTHING except the right to choose the orientation of my character and THAT has been met with open hostility and downright rudeness.

 

It's not rude to want to play by your own preferences.

 

Yes there is a bias here. Let me explain.

 

You want your character to be compassionate. You choose mercy options.

 

You character is honorable. You chose options that make your character a hero in others eyes.

 

You want your character to be narcissist. You choose deceptive and selfish

 

Your character is Homicidal. You choose to kill everything you come accross.

 

Your character is sadistic. Leaves Vette's shock collar on/abuse companion characters.

 

Your character is straight. You flirt with people of the opposite gender.

 

Your character is gay. You flirt with people of the same gender.

 

Now i can go on and on and on of how we can form and make our characters. Why does gender preference have to have a toggle over anything else? When you say that it needs an exception then you are being biased. I want this issue to be treated fair and by putting in a toggle/gender preference you are not treating it the same.

 

And please do not use the people are born gay/bi thing. Some people like myself are yes but not everyone is and there are people that are born with depression, that are narcissist. I don't see the toggle for that group.

[JediElf]

Can we just get these romances already? A few of my characters, are going to be really lonely, on the way to max level.

 

I wish they wold give us a timeline, or a confirmed date, or tell us that they are working on it, and recording voice for it...or something.

 

Come on Bioware, I love you guys, but something very big is missing from this game, something you guys do very, very well.

 

Please guys....soon?

[MasterAidenFlux]

I feel with the way that BioWare prioritizes fixes and additional things we won't see these for quite some time. I think a developer explained it in a post how it all works and so it has lead me to believe that perhaps end of this year, early next year at best we'll get a better idea of when we'll see something. It probably won't even be done by then, but at least they might start planning for it by then.

[Lurkz]

It seems to be common among the military in the US. "Sir" is generally seen as gender-neutral by those in service. Nice catch.

 

It's actually not a US military thing, we say "Ma'am" to senior female members. If someone had said "Sir" to me when I was in the AF I'd have wondered what they were smoking to not realize I was a woman. Note: I'm really, really not doing this to be rude and I hope it doesn't come off that way.

 

On to the topic at hand! (or at least one of the several)

 

Not-quite-worst case scenario: Token neutral companions - one male, one female. I mean, we've all thought of it, right? But! I have managed to think of a worse idea! What if they also made them a species that didn't speak basic, so they could get around all that pesky voice acting?

 

That... would drive me bonkers. o.O Granted, this is the situation with Bowdaar on a smuggler (though you're not trying to romance him either) but for some reason it would throw me off if it was in a romance option companion.

 

As for toggles of any sort. I could -accept- one at character creation but I would think it very unnecessary. And if it existed it better be the most robust selection possible. If they're going to make people choose there had better be an option for straight, gay, bi, AND asexual. If it was just "You must be straight or gay" that would irritate the hell outta me.

[Cythereal]

That... would drive me bonkers. o.O Granted, this is the situation with Bowdaar on a smuggler (though you're not trying to romance him either) but for some reason it would throw me off if it was in a romance option companion.

 

This also happens with Qyzen Fess, T7-01, Broonmark, Khem Val, Blizz, and probably Yuun (not positive on him yet). None of whom are romanceable and are all very alien or, in T7's case, a droid. I don't think Bioware will make any romanceable companions, homosexual or otherwise, incapable of speaking Basic, but I will be very disappointed if they do.

[Innocentone]

It sucks atm. I don't want to talk to risha or elara right now. Yet they both want to chat with my smuggler and trooper. I don't want to miss anything so having to ignore them until this is added.

[sparklecat]

Bottom line is, it's just my preference that my characters aren't attracted to black NPCs, and it's just your preference if yours are. There's no reason we can't both have what we want unless one of us is trying to interfere with the other. By stating "No, you cannot avoid interracial relationship content you don't want to see", you are espousing the same closed-minded bigotry that some might claim *I* have.

 

 

 

 

AKA no, throwing out the names of various fallacies without actually addressing my point, specifically without saying how it's not a valid comparison and how having options you don't pick limits your ability to play your character isn't gonna cut it, argument-wise. I said absolutely nothing about civil rights anything, and I'll thank you not to bring real-life issues in where they don't belong. This is just about personal preference and who we are and aren't attracted to.

 

Of course, maybe you would support being able to choose which races your characters see [Flirt] options for during character creation; if so, simply say so, and we'll be good to go!

[Suaine]

I have seen nothing to convince me that being able to choose my orientation at character creation is a bad idea. I've seen tons of people use straw man arguments by referring to civil rights examples or try to equate sexual preference with being evil or good but they all fall flat.

 

Bottom line is that I have a certain preference and YOU have a certain preference. There is no reason why we both can not have what we want unless one of us is trying to interfere with the other. By stating, "No, you can not avoid content you do not want to see." you are espousing the same closed minded bigotry that many claim *I* have.

 

Frankly it's not our job to convince you of anything. It would be a thankless job in any case. You believe what you want to believe, about us, about this content and about the world. Nothing we can do about that.

 

In the end it is Bioware who will decide what to do about this. Not us, not you. I feel that the active, perpetual choice within the scope of each conversation says more about a character than clicking a one-size-fits-all button at the beginning or in the UI.

 

The fact that you admit that you "do not want to see this content" tells me all I need to know about you. Requesting a toggle for this content because it offends you or you don't want to deal with the ideas it might trigger is asking for special treatment. Throwing out the reverse ~ism card is just the icing on the cake. You want to do this seriously and civilly? Stop playing the victim.

[Krayna]

I have seen nothing to convince me that being able to choose my orientation at character creation is a bad idea. I've seen tons of people use straw man arguments by referring to civil rights examples or try to equate sexual preference with being evil or good but they all fall flat.

 

Bottom line is that I have a certain preference and YOU have a certain preference. There is no reason why we both can not have what we want unless one of us is trying to interfere with the other. By stating, "No, you can not avoid content you do not want to see." you are espousing the same closed minded bigotry that many claim *I* have.

 

No I am asking to be treated the same, you are not that is the difference. You are asking for something to be treated differently and If you cant see it I am sorry. Adding more ways to filter content because it contains a minority lifestyle is crude and offensive. I am not being a bigot I am just asking for the same treatment.

[Jumpingspider]

I saw some complaints/disappointment that same sex romance options should have been present at launch. And one or two posts that thought it wouldn't have been hard to implement.

 

Hands up everybody who would've accepted waiting until july or september 2012 to have the same sex romances at launch.

 

That said, I too would have liked to have those options available at launch, but I also understand why they didn't have them.

It's the same reason I'm not surprised at all that the swtor romance options they do have are considerably more "shallow" (in terms of how developed they are as people) than the Mass Effect or Dragon Age companions.

 

This is an MMO an not a single player game after all. The scope is much larger. Compare how many romance options there are in ME2 or DA2 (6 and 5 respectively) with the 17 romance options in SWTOR. All fully voiced.

And let's not forget that instead of 12 companions (ME2) you have 40 in total.

 

With the launch deadline they had there is no conceivable way they would be able to write the characters, do models for them, animate the models, record the VA, script companions missions etc for an additional 16 companions (one male and one female same gender romance for each player class).

 

I know some would like to have the same sex option for the current characters, but really, the additional work while less than 16 additional companions, still isn't insignificant.

If you think the companions are shallow now, imagine it if they had gone for making them same-gender optional for the current batch of romance options. That development time would have to be taken from another part of their overall 'construct'. Likely story depth/missions.

 

That said, I do look forward to continuing the romances I have as well as getting the same gender options in future patches and/or expansions.

 

 

It's actually not a US military thing, we say "Ma'am" to senior female members. If someone had said "Sir" to me when I was in the AF I'd have wondered what they were smoking to not realize I was a woman.

Where I come from we address officers and NCO's by rank, regardless of gender.

(Ergo; "Yes captain!")

It should be noted that we don't really have an equivalent to 'sir' or 'ma'am' in our language though. I think it's a holdover from when virtually all officers were noblemen, since 'sir' originally referred to someone who had been knighted.

As far as my memory serves.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Jumpingspider

[Wittand]

I have seen nothing to convince me that being able to choose my orientation at character creation is a bad idea. I've seen tons of people use straw man arguments by referring to civil rights examples or try to equate sexual preference with being evil or good but they all fall flat.

 

Bottom line is that I have a certain preference and YOU have a certain preference. There is no reason why we both can not have what we want unless one of us is trying to interfere with the other. By stating, "No, you can not avoid content you do not want to see." you are espousing the same closed minded bigotry that many claim *I* have.

Just picking the orientation during character creation is simply a waste of resources if the same outcome can simply be achieved by only picking the appropriate flirts for the orientation that you want to play.

Now if ever game elements like a childhood sweet hearth that returns to your characters life make it into the game, such a choice would make sense so that every player can have the past they want for their characters (and therefore a gay smuggler does not get a default girlfriend like Goblins do in WoW).

But since I don´t believe that we will ever get much information about our characters from the time before we take control over them, a way to determine their past is unnecessary since we can already determine their present.

[ProfessorCaprion]

I have seen nothing to convince me that being able to choose my orientation at character creation is a bad idea. I've seen tons of people use straw man arguments by referring to civil rights examples or try to equate sexual preference with being evil or good but they all fall flat.

 

Bottom line is that I have a certain preference and YOU have a certain preference. There is no reason why we both can not have what we want unless one of us is trying to interfere with the other. By stating, "No, you can not avoid content you do not want to see." you are espousing the same closed minded bigotry that many claim *I* have.

 

Please tell me, then, Galius; how is what you're asking for different than my example of disabling seeing PVP terminals and such, or sparklecat's example of turning off the ability to see minority romances?

[ZenMondo]

If there were an option to turn off ALL relationship options, both homosexual and heterosexual, I would find that to be far more appropriate, as it doesn't single-out one segment of the population as being offensive and worthy of censoring while the other is supposed to be perfectly acceptable to absolutely everyone.

 

I have seen this suggestion come up time and time again. And I think its high time we just call it for what it is, it is a dog whistle. A code to say we want a "no gay filter" by couching it in such language to make it seem fair and a compromise. It's not. Its an attempt to give a false concession, something that really is NOT asked for a "no straight filter" as a way to make it seem fair.

 

Its akin to saying sure we want our white only drinking fountain, but on the same token we can't use the colored-only drinking fountain. That's fair, right?

 

The idea of filtering same sex content is popular in some circles and filtering opposite gender content is an invented compromise that never came up until it was so patently clear how unfair and bigoted a no gay filter would be.

[MamaSok]

I personally don't want to see this in the game, nor have my kids that play with me have to deal with it, but if it is added please have it as an option to turn on/off, off by default would be my preference.

 

If your kids are old enough to see all the other content in the game and you allow them to play, how does sgra change that? There's so much more in this game to worry about than sgra. The murder, racism, sexual references ect. My children are young, and being that young they are not allowed to see movies/play games that have ANY sexual references, or explicit content. Imho, the fact that the content is ogr or sgr should make no difference. Not to mention, they more than likely have already encountered a same gender relationship if they are old enough to play this game, be it friends at school that are dating, or even parents of a friend at school.