The sheer number of buttons is just not fun

[Vinge]

unfortunately for you this dude was not being unpolite but very relevant. this is how mmorpgs generally work, there might be some exeptions but it is really part of the genre. I also understand the aggresivenes of the poster above, as asking for mmorpgs to take a FPS (First Person Shooter) approach is... just selfish. If u dont like the genre dont play it, DONT ask for the genre and the comunity to change for you. I don't want to be mean but the point is along the lines of "if u don't like skiing, don't ask for skiing to be done on sand dunes where its not cold. just go play beach volleyball or something that soothes more ure intersts.

 

I mean even RTS (Real Time Strategy) games are rather taxing at the number of buttons and skill/actions u can choose from. IF u dont like too many skills/actions/buttons, the gernres that best accomodate that approach are FPS and generally console games: the wii being the extreme example/

 

If whats holding you instead is the story line and the franchise: aka. u wanna play it cos its star wars, then don't worry most of the best story telling in swtor is done in the class quests and the FPs u can see that content by "rerolling" all the clases and not having to play at end game where there are more skills.

 

It's how mmorpgs generally work now. It's what the genre has become. But it never used to be, for example as others have already said ealy mmorpgs like EQ limited you to only having 8 spells maximum memorised at any one time.

 

Personally I think recent mmorpgs have gone too far with the number of abilities players are expected to use, I don't think lots of abilities really means varied and interesting gameplay, it just creates an illusion of varied and interesting gameplay by introducing a mini-game where the player is effectively tested on their ability to play the UI, not play the underlying game.

 

But that's just me.

[gtmach]

Just have to prioritize.

 

The moves I use in questing and PvP are keybound in a way where I can access them immediately without thought.

 

The moves I need for the occasional boss are a bit further away.

 

Then you have the few slots for the "oh crap" situations. (e.g. big cooldowns and such)

[Morpholinium]

Just have to prioritize.

 

The moves I use in questing and PvP are keybound in a way where I can access them immediately without thought.

 

The moves I need for the occasional boss are a bit further away.

 

Then you have the few slots for the "oh crap" situations. (e.g. big cooldowns and such)

 

This.

 

It's perfectly possible to have all skills quick slotted and be effective.

 

Does one really need the flare gun and holodancer on a quick bar?

[LeonidasSith]

I agree, make SWTOR like that other game so I can wipe entire warzones by doing nothing but pressing 1,2,3,1,1,1,1,1,2,3,1,1,1. Now THAT'S a good time I tell ya.

 

Hell, ideally I don't want to press any buttons. I played Dungeon Siege 1 for almost a year, and all I had to do was click on a mob. I only had one attack.

 

What is it about pressing buttons? When I quick Warhammer Online (after 3 days of play) they asked me if I quit because "there aren't enough" buttons. The game had dozens of frigging buttons!!

 

Ultimatelly it's a moneygrab. They think more buttons = more $$, because the decisions are made by corporate suits who analyze market trends, not by gamers.

 

WoW was successfull despite the idiotic class mechanics and the annoyingly complicated game play. It was just that good, that I'd put up with it, because it had polish, atmosphere, story and depth.

 

Gaming is entertainment, I don't want to watch an action movie everytime, sometimes I want to just relax and watch animal planet, and enjoy the scenery. I don't need to get an adrenaline rush - or if I do, I hit the gym!

 

edit: This button mentality is narrow minded. More buttons does not mean more depth. Think Chess!

Victory in a mmorpg should be about team work, strategy, patience, knowledge and execution.

Who cares if I can mash a certain key combination in 2 seconds? That's hardly intelligent or strategic. In fact, it's the opposite.

Edited February 22, 2012 by LeonidasSith

[Morpholinium]

Hell, ideally I don't want to press any buttons. I played Dungeon Siege 1 for almost a year, and all I had to do was click on a mob. I only had one attack.

 

What is it about pressing buttons? When I quick Warhammer Online (after 3 days of play) they asked me if I quit because "there aren't enough" buttons. The game had dozens of frigging buttons!!

 

Ultimatelly it's a moneygrab. They think more buttons = more $$, because the decisions are made by corporate suits who analyze market trends, not by gamers.

 

WoW was successfull despite the idiotic class mechanics and the annoyingly complicated game play. It was just that good, that I'd put up with it, because it had polish, atmosphere, story and depth.

 

Gaming is entertainment, I don't want to watch an action movie everytime, sometimes I want to just relax and watch animal planet, and enjoy the scenery. I don't need to get an adrenaline rush - or if I do, I hit the gym!

 

They could call it Autoattack. Or even better, let us space bar through combat so we can all hit 50 without experiencing any of the game!

[GreymaneAlpha]

You know what would decrease the number of buttons?

 

WoW's Macro system. Specifically, [harm] vs [help] contexts and [modifier] contexts.

[gtmach]

Hell, ideally I don't want to press any buttons. I played Dungeon Siege 1 for almost a year, and all I had to do was click on a mob. I only had one attack.

 

What is it about pressing buttons? When I quick Warhammer Online (after 3 days of play) they asked me if I quit because "there aren't enough" buttons. The game had dozens of frigging buttons!!

 

Ultimatelly it's a moneygrab. They think more buttons = more $$, because the decisions are made by corporate suits who analyze market trends, not by gamers.

 

WoW was successfull despite the idiotic class mechanics and the annoyingly complicated game play. It was just that good, that I'd put up with it, because it had polish, atmosphere, story and depth.

 

Gaming is entertainment, I don't want to watch an action movie everytime, sometimes I want to just relax and watch animal planet, and enjoy the scenery. I don't need to get an adrenaline rush - or if I do, I hit the gym!

 

edit: This button mentality is narrow minded. More buttons does not mean more depth. Think Chess!

Victory in a mmorpg should be about team work, strategy, patience, knowledge and execution.

Who cares if I can mash a certain key combination in 2 seconds? That's hardly intelligent or strategic. In fact, it's the opposite.

 

Really man..

 

They create more buttons to make more money...

[MasterKayote]

Have you ever played an MMO?

 

lol, not even ... just RPG's in general. Sure MMO's have the largest of all but every RPG I have play so far has had me going through hotbars or going through 35 menus to do/change anything.

[Evil_Santa]

What are ya talking about too many abilities?

 

In PvE i understand that

 

In PvP each ability is useful in different situations and without having a wide range of utility playing becomes incredibly boring. If I wanted to play a game that has 2 abilities, then I'd go for an FPS.

 

Why you would not want to have a wide range of utility in a MMO is beyond my comprehension. It would be like playing Starcraft with only having 2 units availble to you, or a FPS with 1 weapon.

[Wazooty]

They could call it Autoattack. Or even better, let us space bar through combat so we can all hit 50 without experiencing any of the game!

 

Heheheh.

 

Nice dig on uh....Ms. Helper.

[Dajag]

I use all my abilities on both my level 50 toons... There is not too many ablities but what there is , is a lack of Hot Bar space!!!!

 

Just freeken fix the UI.... Make it movable and give the option to open up more center Hot Bars.. And gives us the ability to ged rid of all the excess UI clutter.

 

DO IT!!!

 

[DJunior]

Welcome to the modern mmorpg, where every game copys the combat system from wow....

 

Guild wars 2 is going to change that tho

 

Agreed, copied, but without macros. Yes, I'm a fan of 'em. I understand the reasoning for not wanting macros in the game (avoiding automation is BW's goal I believe), and I would support the relevance of keeping them out if something had been done to change the gameplay mechanics in such a way that macros were no longer a staple of MMOs. In other words they should have done something new philosophically to improve the gameplay, thus making macros an afterthought in this game. Unfortunately, the same old system without macros, for me, is like a step back in time. If the really devs wanted to improve gameplay and fairness in contrast to other MMOs, then they would not have taken the lazy road and used the exact same gameplay mechanics of every other MMO that predates it. I am looking to BW, faithfully, to face the facts and get to work on these things, or else I will be going to GW2 on its release date. I never played GW1, but something tells me that ArenaNet will have their finger on the pulse of the MMO gaming community, whereas I kinda feel like Bioware is still sort of with the console crowd. Also, maybe ArenaNet will release a better product because they will have to sell the game based on its own accord and not because of it's name.

[gtmach]

Agreed, copied, but without macros. Yes, I'm a fan of 'em. I understand the reasoning for not wanting macros in the game (avoiding automation is BW's goal I believe), and I would support the relevance of keeping them out if something had been done to change the gameplay mechanics in such a way that macros were no longer a staple of MMOs. In other words they should have done something new philosophically to improve the gameplay, thus making macros an afterthought in this game. Unfortunately, the same old system without macros, for me, is like a step back in time. If the really devs wanted to improve gameplay and fairness in contrast to other MMOs, then they would not have taken the lazy road and used the exact same gameplay mechanics of every other MMO that predates it. I am looking to BW, faithfully, to face the facts and get to work on these things, or else I will be going to GW2 on its release date. I never played GW1, but something tells me that ArenaNet will have their finger on the pulse of the MMO gaming community, whereas I kinda feel like Bioware is still sort of with the console crowd. Also, maybe ArenaNet will release a better product because they will have to sell the game based on its own accord and not because of it's name.

 

From what I've heard, in GW2 you also have tons of different abilities but you can only use 10 at a time. (5 weapon-based skills and 5 other types)

 

So which 10 you pick is up to you but that's all the slots you have to work with.

[DarkhawkXY]

I don't really see the problem here. Too many buttons? There are 2 center bars and a right and left bar. Permanent buffs, quick travel and the like on left, forms and adrenals/relics on the right. That leaves me with plenty of open area on the bottom. Try working out which abilities are priorities and using a set rotation (with a few situational abilities like interrupt and slow for mouseclicking) I generally only use hotkeys 1-6 and I have R T and V for situational/long cooldown skills (force leap, saber throw and combat focus). I have a standard mouse/keyboard and do just fine.

[DJunior]

From what I've heard, in GW2 you also have tons of different abilities but you can only use 10 at a time. (5 weapon-based skills and 5 other types)

 

So which 10 you pick is up to you but that's all the slots you have to work with.

 

Totally down with that. Looking forward.

[Rotsu]

What i'd like to see is some situational button changing. For instance a JK has Reposte. Which can only be used Every six seconds for 3 action points after Parry Dodge or shield.

 

Couldn't this be molded into a current attack and change from say your basic attack to Reposte when you dodge parry or shield, remove the cost and bump up the time between uses.

 

Or choose another skill that might cost even more Focus but is on demand, and when you parry shield or dodge, it changes to Reposte. If the On demand skill creates a proc, Have Repo do the same proc, or a random proc, or a guarenteed Crit, whatever. But theres 2 slots made into one because of course it would make sens to use a cheaper similar attack when it procs.

 

For the Jedi Shadow.

 

Tulmit and Spinning strike really need the same treatment. Ones for stunned, ones for under 30% health. So if its stunned, and above 30%, Have the attack Do the kick. If its Under 30% health Spinning lightsaber.

 

Now the fun part you can do. If its both. Since you've combined the Attack to do either, you could now Do the kick, and then hackem with the Lightsaber in a fun and interesting spinning, kicking lightsabre spinning attack, Instead of Spin kick, stop, spin saber, stop attack.

 

All i'm thinking is by combining a few very similar skills you could make them a little more dynamic and cut down a bit on keybind sprawl.

[Grotpar]

Most of the abilities are situational. SOME of them are so situational that they probably shouldn't exist or should be fused with other abilities.

 

This is pretty much it.

 

A good example is probably Tumult. A very good ability on paper, but its requirements are ridiculous.

 

First, it has a 45 second cooldown. So you can't use it often to begin with.

Second, the target needs to be CC'd. Another limiting factor because of CC cooldowns, and some mobs can't be CC'd(bosses).

Third, it can't he used on elites, at all. Cooldown may be up, they may be CC'd, it does nothing.

Fourth, only really useful to assassins because of its 4 meter range, why would a Sorc want to be in melee range unless it's a boss with a ranged damage aura that doesn't affect melee(in which case, you can't use Tumult either, trolololo)

 

It's a neat ability, but why does it exist? To make normal fights easier? They're already easy enough as they are. But the high cooldown on it makes it so that it actually has no impact, ever.

I don't think it can be used on player characters either. Though I never tried. What's the purpose of this ability?

Edited February 22, 2012 by Grotpar

[DarkhawkXY]

That sounds similair to pummel strike, and cyclone slash for guardians.. Pummel strike is only on CC'd attacks and is worthless to keybind. Cyclone slash looks good on paper, but it has no dmg modifiers and is only used if force sweep isn't up to knock people off setting bombs on doors in Voidstar.. not used in PvE at all.

[Sabilok]

Learn to play, srsly. If you think theres to many buttons you must just blow and need to take typing classes or something, they have key binds for a reason use them. I play a jugg tank and have zero issues using all my abilities, have ample space to bind them all, sure another bottom bar would be nice but who cares. It's easily doable and takes like a day of getting used to or getting used to while lvling.

 

Actually screw it, let's just have 1 button for all your spells, a drop down choose your loot for bosses, and losses count as wins. This generation of players is so f'ed in the head with instant gratification it's ruined all gaming.

 

/ rant

[gurugeorge]

No it's not, it's a LOT of fun.

 

See, this is what MMOs have always been - like a mini skill that takes time to learn, then you get good at it.

 

Not like an fps that's really intuitive and they're all the same anyway.

 

But rather, in MMOs each class has it's own "thing" that you've got to learn - a bunch of neat tricks that go beyond merely facerolling the keyboard. Something you have to learn and get precise at.

 

Try it, it's fun!

Edited February 22, 2012 by gurugeorge

[Darth_Gao_Gao]

i'm only level 29 on my shadow, and there are just a ton of buttons. i've already mapped 1-4, and all the keys near my WASD, including the shift alterations.

 

i'm not too worried though because as i specialize further, some of these skills will not be optimal to use, and will then be removed.

[Gotchaz]

Well the problem is there's no macros, that's why the sheer number of buttons is crazy. It's not a matter of not knowing how to play. I play Commando and there's tons of stuff I would like to hot key, different grenades, different heals. I play Gunner so...all my tool bars are full. In a fight I can use at least 15 different abilities. If you don't find the amount of buttons annoying then chances are you're not playing your character up to it's true potential and just spamming a couple things. Edited February 22, 2012 by Gotchaz

[DJunior]

Well the problem is there's no macros, that's why the sheer number of buttons is crazy. It's not a matter of not knowing how to play. I play Commando and there's tons of stuff I would like to hot key, different grenades, different heals. I play Gunner so...all my tool bars are full. In a fight I can use at least 15 different abilities. If you don't find the amount of buttons annoying then chances are you're not playing your character up to it's true potential and just spamming a couple things.

 

Couldn't agree more.

[gurugeorge]

Well the problem is there's no macros, that's why the sheer number of buttons is crazy. It's not a matter of not knowing how to play. I play Commando and there's tons of stuff I would like to hot key, different grenades, different heals. I play Gunner so...all my tool bars are full. In a fight I can use at least 15 different abilities. If you don't find the amount of buttons annoying then chances are you're not playing your character up to it's true potential and just spamming a couple things.

 

Why the hell do you need macros? You've already got umpteen keys on your keyboard and numpad (useful for your mouse thumb to flick over to), plus SHIFT, CTRL and ALT variants of all of them, plus you've got all your mouse buttons for "bread and butter" attacks, and all the trays are totally assignable with up to 2 separate commands.

 

I play a Jedi Shadow and have both bottom bars and both side bars full of assigned keypresses that I've been practicing with in the course of the game, and have gotten quite used to. Why would I need a macro for god's sake? Unless it's to fire off a combination of keypresses - but then what about situationality? Rotations don't always get a chance to complete, you have to be flexible.

 

Think about your assignments. Have most used attacks on the letter keys around WASD, and the numbers 1-6 or 7, then use shift variants for buffs/debuffs, etc. It's easy, you just have to spend a bit of time thinking and practicing.

 

You're not supposed to just roll your face along the keyboard and win.

Edited February 22, 2012 by gurugeorge

[Isilme_Turuphant]

It could be worse.

 

If FFXI, the skill bloat was rather extreme, especially for mage classes... in fact, any magic using class was guaranteed to have more than 50% of it's abilities be completely useless by max level. Mages were closer to 80%.

 

That still left a huge number of abilities that you had to hotkey. But that wasn't all! Oh no... because FFXI allowed... nay, required on-the-fly gear swaps.

 

For instance, say you're a Ranger (Ranged DPS). You would eventually get yourself an arrow called Patriot Protector Arrow. This was ONE ARROW (Unique/Untradeable too, so you could only ever have one) that was stupid expensive, but had really high damage.

 

To use this, you would need to create a macro that would swap the arrow into your ammo, pop the ability that allowed you to fire a shot without consuming ammunition - allowing you to use the arrow's stats - Pop the actual attack you wished to use with it, then swap your regular arrows back in.

 

In endgame, you did this sort of thing for EVERY. SINGLE. ABILITY.

 

Want to heal? Gear swap to healing buff gear. Buff? Another swap.

 

Tanking? Gear swaps for your taunt, weaponskills, self-heals...

 

DPS? If you weren't blinking like a Christmas Tree light from all the gear swaps, you got the boot for Doing It Wrong.

 

So EACH SEPARATE ABILITY involved about 8 different actions. Sometimes you would need to chain macros to accomplish everything.

 

So... yeah, TOR has a lot of abilities. But it can ALWAYS be worse.