Empirical_Data Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I chuckled at Banana slug... but to add to the discourse. I think All games essentially have too many abilities. By that I mean , more than you can hotkey. So as others have stated , part of solving the problem is selecting what needs to be a quick reaction ability and so deserves a coveted keyboard slot. Can add more abilities to the keyboard by introducing macros and clever use of cooldowns allowing you to stack multiple abilities in a single macro alla Rift and even WoW to some extent . But not to the point where a complex assortment of abilities are then simplified into a few clicks among master keys. Fine line we walk I rarely use macros. They take full engagement away and I'm resorting to watching not playing. Just making them bigger and enhancing the UI would go a long way towards making the toon the focal point not the hot bars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaede Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) can anyone argue with this post , i cant. I can sort of. One of my big beefs about ability bloat is when you have 3 or 4 abilities that basically just do damage with different cds or marginally different resource usage. It adds a tiny bit extra sometimes in neck and neck pvp duels and the other 99% of the time 1 will always be optional to use over the other. Gunslinger for example by level 20 or so I have 5 damage only abilities with marginally different resource costs or 'cast times.' Effectively though they all pretty much do 1 thing, instant damage. Its like the old wrath/arcane nuke choice for Moonkin druids. They were both cast time nukes with little to really distinguish one from the other. Adding that using X has an ability to make Y instant also is an unsatisfactory way of seperating abilities. I do think the mashing of the autoattack replacement is just to make classes feel active between cooldowns. Edited February 22, 2012 by Chaede Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Funny. I remember when I played DCUO and everyone complained that there wasnt enough abilities available. Gamers will never be happy. lol, at least I was consistent. I thought that was one of the better features of that game. No overwhelming skill bars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylriana Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Ability Bloat is no fun and every MMO suffers from it. 80% of the skills you hardly ever need to use. Doesn't that sort of make the point moot then? If they're irrelevant, then it doesn't matter whether or not they exist. Macros would be nice, but honestly when I play my Sentinel, there's only 2 or 3 abilities I don't use ( so, incidentally, they're not hotkeyed and a couple aren't even on my ability bars. ) the rest though? I use them, and I'd honestly be worse off if BW started crunching them all down, because it'd mean a loss of functionality for no real gain. I mean, the "can only be used on stunned enemies, does not work on players" skills can go in the trash can, but most of what's left? Not really. The amusing thing about the typical learn to play argument in regards to ability consolidation in order to combat ability bloat in MMOs is that it boils down to someone telling you to buy a multi-button gaming mouse and gaming keyboard so you can pretend to be skilled cause you’ll click keybinds faster than the average PC user. Who says gaming isn’t pay to win for many, right? You don't need a gaming keyboard or gaming mouse to play this game though... Unless you call a regular 2-8 button mouse a "gaming mouse" Like a couple people have said before, the larger problem is a UI that doesn't overtly display cooldowns or make it comfortable to watch for procs, not the abilities themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgonKara Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I wouldn't say there are too many abilities for my Juggernaut, although there are definitely a few that I rarely use and a couple that I never use because of my advanced class specialization. I will say that I find the two conditional abilities that are non-functional in PvP to be a bit annoying, but I usually just swap them out on my toolbar with my area snare and CC break for PvP. If those two weak/strong attacks worked in PvP I think my ability set up would be perfect actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XLauncher Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Playing Guardian and Marauder makes me wonder if I missed my calling to learn piano when I was a child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dire-Wolf Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I have to agree, there are way too many abilities. You're pretty much required to use some sort of mmo mouse if you want to play this game properly. I also agree that looking at your buff bar for procs is boring. Hopefully they'll eventually implement something like WoW has were when you proc it lets you know if a giant on screen graphic around your character. Combat is a lot more fun when you're watching your character rather then watching a tiny portion of your screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddzball Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I wouldn't say there are too many abilities for my Juggernaut, although there are definitely a few that I rarely use and a couple that I never use because of my advanced class specialization. I will say that I find the two conditional abilities that are non-functional in PvP to be a bit annoying, but I usually just swap them out on my toolbar with my area snare and CC break for PvP. If those two weak/strong attacks worked in PvP I think my ability set up would be perfect actually. I think Jug has tons of bloat at 50. I have 2 bars i use constantly in PvP and a third that has relics healthpacks, stances and buffs on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monoth Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Welcome to the modern mmorpg, where every game copys the combat system from wow.... Guild wars 2 is going to change that tho ROFL ROFL ROFL ok seriously you really believe that hype? Everyone in here complaining about this game will be complaining about GW2 3-4 weeks after release guaranteed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJediKnight Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 The sheer number of buttons the Jedi Guardian at 50 has just destroys the fun I once had while leveling the toon. Similarly, my Jedi Shadow has a lot of keybinds and you just stare at ur UI buffs for procs. THis is not fun combat at all. I use a Razer Naga too. Agreed. The skill bloat in this game is out of control. It is 100% fail for Guard/Jugg/Marauder/Sent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgonKara Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I think Jug has tons of bloat at 50. I have 2 bars i use constantly in PvP and a third that has relics healthpacks, stances and buffs on it. Yeah same here but I don't find them to be redundant. I use Sunder instead of Assault and that's about it, the rest sort of have unique utility/function. The only other one I never use is Vicious Slash which is a single target attack, but that's because it costs the same Rage as the area Sweep Slash ability, which I figure is generally more useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddzball Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Yeah same here but I don't find them to be redundant. I use Sunder instead of Assault and that's about it, the rest sort of have unique utility/function. The only other one I never use is Vicious Slash which is a single target attack, but that's because it costs the same Rage as the area Sweep Slash ability, which I figure is generally more useful. FUnny, i never use sweep slash. I use vicious slash to dump rage. Just a lot of abilities that are.. meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgonKara Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 FUnny, i never use sweep slash. I use vicious slash to dump rage. Just a lot of abilities that are.. meh. Depends on your spec too. For example Rage spec gets bonuses to Vicious and builds rage relatively fast, but Immortal can tend to get a bit resource starved in PvP so I have prioritize how I use my rage. I wouldn't say 100% of the lvl 50 abilities are totally useful in all situations but personally there are only a couple I never use. PvP and PvE are really different too because tanks mostly rely on getting hit to build resources, but in PvP if you're getting hit there's a good chance you are also CC'd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehoornde Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 The sheer number of buttons the Jedi Guardian at 50 has just destroys the fun I once had while leveling the toon. Similarly, my Jedi Shadow has a lot of keybinds and you just stare at ur UI buffs for procs. THis is not fun combat at all. I use a Razer Naga too. Sorry, but next time you buy a game please look up some info about it. The many abilities was (and is) one of the biggest selling points of the game next to voiceacting. It's like buying a donut and then fly around the moon with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blavatsky Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 while were discussing skills and such do any of you dps sorcs use tumult? I do and have it hotkeyed ( keep in mind i have many hot keys ). I love it for style points alone , flying spin kick to finish off an electro-stunned mob. /joy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethyriel Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Agreed. The skill bloat in this game is out of control. It is 100% fail for Guard/Jugg/Marauder/Sent. My main is a Marauder and I simply don't see it. Every ability I have has a use, some less frequent than others of course (due to cooldown or being of a defensive nature that you want to use at the right time instead of keeping it on cooldown) but they all serve a purpose. I currently also have just 1 extrabutton on my mouse because the other ones broken and I still manage to keybind everything easily including medpac + adrenal. I don't want to have any ability removed so I can spam the standart lv 1 stike + a ragedumper for 10 seconds before I can do something else, that's just freakin boring. Of course there will always be abilities that you have no use for for some classes, like my Sniper won't use Overload Shot and Corrosive Dart being Marksman spec, so simply put them somewhere on the right or left bar and don't bother or throw them out completely. There are many different abilities that you can use when facing different situations and I don't want the game to be dumped down because some people are just too lazy or simply too bad to get it right, I srsly don't want my warrior to become a classic WoW Warrior with 3 buttons to spam so everyone can just faceroll like an idiot and still think he actually did something good, it' lame and boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehoornde Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 My main is a Marauder and I simply don't see it. Every ability I have has a use, some less frequent than others of course (due to cooldown or being of a defensive nature that you want to use at the right time instead of keeping it on cooldown) but they all serve a purpose. I currently also have just 1 extrabutton on my mouse because the other ones broken and I still manage to keybind everything easily including medpac + adrenal. I don't want to have any ability removed so I can spam the standart lv 1 stike + a ragedumper for 10 seconds before I can do something else, that's just freakin boring. Of course there will always be abilities that you have no use for for some classes, like my Sniper won't use Overload Shot and Corrosive Dart being Marksman spec, so simply put them somewhere on the right or left bar and don't bother or throw them out completely. There are many different abilities that you can use when facing different situations and I don't want the game to be dumped down because some people are just too lazy or simply too bad to get it right, I srsly don't want my warrior to become a classic WoW Warrior with 3 buttons to spam so everyone can just faceroll like an idiot and still think he actually did something good, it' lame and boring. Ding! a winner! (also pure words of wisdom) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehoornde Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 while were discussing skills and such do any of you dps sorcs use tumult? I do and have it hotkeyed ( keep in mind i have many hot keys ). I love it for style points alone , flying spin kick to finish off an electro-stunned mob. /joy No, it's worthless and a wasted point imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgonKara Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) I've seen worse. In LOTRO there are some classes, like Minstrels for example, that have upwards of 4 full bars of abilities and a lot of them are very specifically conditional -like short duration buffs that can only be applied with another pre-requisite short-duration buff present, abilities that can only be used after a critical hit or defeating an enemy and different CCs for different races of enemies etc, etc. You actually have to build up to your most powerful abilities by going through tiers of pre-req abilities in the right order and they all have different pre-reqs. It makes SWTOR look like child's play. Edited February 22, 2012 by MorgonKara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brimmer Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Welcome to the modern mmorpg, where every game copys the combat system from wow.... Guild wars 2 is going to change that tho No DCUO changed that, they only have 6 skills, and 2 non-skill related slots. ^ PS3 friendly - but it worked very well in a mmorpg settings on a PC too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blavatsky Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 No, it's worthless and a wasted point imo. When you have a mob just about dead , try using electrocute to stun it in place , force speed to charge in , and tumult to finish it off. its fun just a tip but jump before you cast tumult. flying jump death kick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehoornde Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 When you have a mob just about dead , try using electrocute to stun it in place , force speed to charge in , and tumult to finish it off. its fun just a tip but jump before you cast tumult. flying jump death kick Yup thats why I love this spell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedMix Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) I liked the Guild Wars 1 combat system. Where you had to choose 8 skills that you were going to bring with you. It made the combat very strategic, you actually had to put thought into your skill make up, plus it became even more strategic when you put into consideration the skill make up of the team you are in. Sometimes having less is actually more. Agree EverQuest 1 had a limited "spell" bar of 8 as well i believe and DAOC just had a limited set of abilities in general... and look at MOBA's they only give u 4 abilities and item slot clickies but there is a ton of skill involved in those. Less is definitely more from my view point. Its why i begin to dislike the game the higher lvl my toons get. When it takes 20 hotkeys to "compete" and still have to click other abilities... i pretty much lose interest. Edited February 22, 2012 by RedMix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMar Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Welcome to the modern mmorpg, where every game copys the combat system from wow.... Guild wars 2 is going to change that tho Another WoW fanboy that thinks they invented it all. It's like the people who believe that Apple has the right to patent 'App' because they 'invented' the word and it was never used before came out with the app store... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedMix Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Another WoW fanboy that thinks they invented it all. It's like the people who believe that Apple has the right to patent 'App' because they 'invented' the word and it was never used before came out with the app store... EQ and DAOC definitely didnt have ability bloat... I don't think AC2 was active long enough to even attempt ability bloat... pretty much just leaves WoW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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