Dabuzugzug Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) Well I finally got my Rakata main hand a couple of days ago--matched now with the offhand--and I'm having some serious aggro problems. I spam surrender during my rotations as always on tougher targets but it does not seem to have any effect. When I do pull threat and use surrender the tank always has to taunt off me, even though I've stopped dpsing. The threat lead should return to the tank in that situation if surrender is working, as I would barely be above the tank before I used surrender. Even a 10-20% threat reduction should do the trick, I couldn't find any exact figures on how much threat surrender is supposed to drop. I've had the same problem in both hard mode flashpoints and operations and am a bit frustrated (as are my tanks). Is anyone else having similar issues? Edited February 21, 2012 by Dabuzugzug Forgot to add context info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ugugg Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Its working out of ops for me. If i dps at the same time as my companion i get aggro. If i initiate the fight and use surrender once and then continue to dps then i won't aggro again before mob dies. Just a standard L50 silver mob. Yeah impossible to tell how much was dropped and I'm only semi dps, but it is dropping some threat. Do you leave surrender for the full duration? Not sure if this helps much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dabuzugzug Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Thanks, I haven't gone out and tried it against ordinary enemies yet. The duration aspect would be interesting to check out. It does seem pointless to give it no GCD if you have to wait, but I'll test it out in dailies later today. I'd like to see if there is any difference between dropping companion threat versus actual players as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suntar Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I pay my scoundrel with a well geared tank most of the time. I have noticed as my gear improves surrender has become less and less effective. Although I cant be certain I suspect that the threat reduction is a static number based on level rather than a % and this is why with decent gear even when your opossite a tank in decent gear its less effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRieh Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 When I do pull threat and use surrender the tank always has to taunt off me, even though I've stopped dpsing I tried to figured out how exactly it works. Looks like it is not supposed to get aggro off reactively, but it's for proactive constant spamming while on rotation. I even had a topic about this one (along with usage of smuggle skill). Some said it can drop mob off. Personaly I never ever had it happened, no matter if it's a solo with ranged tank companion or group. Taunt is usually needed anyway. I'd love to get a threatmeter in-game, really. I dont care for dps\hps, but knowing who's current top threat is and how far am I from that numbes is always nice for me as a healer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) I'm sure it works. The problem is if there is a large enough disparity between your tanks DPS out capacity their threat gen skills won't suffice. When I roll with undergeared tanks who haven't done any rotation analysis or tried at all to min-max their single target DPS no matter what I do I can't keep myself from stealing aggro because I put out probably 3x as much damage as they do even spamming surrender in between rotations. Basically I started telling them to tell me over vent when they use their taunt so I can burst right after that for 2-3 seconds. Edited February 21, 2012 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckoneful Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Works on my slinger but I haven't done Ops, with but in FPs/HM FPs I use it practically on CD and I'll still have threat drop off me occasionally on bosses there if I pull and pop it without the tank taunting. Most tanks don't taunt unless I tell them to >_> WTB Target of Target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoyProtocol Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 For your convenience, the aggro model (from what I have read) is that you need 130% threat to pull ranged, and 110% threat to pull melee. Arguably the surrender is not dropping enough aggro for you. Consider testing with and without on similar encounters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melkathi Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I've started having trouble surrendering when healing in Heroics... so I'll add my voice to what someone else mentioned about gear improving but surrender staying the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ukita Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Surrender seems a little bit unresponsive. I had to use it a couple of times during Soa in HM EV, and he dropped agro after hitting me twice after I surrendered. Honestly wouldn't be an issue if he didn't randomly switch agro to begin with, but it doesn't help that our drop threat ability isn't working to spec either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRieh Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I've started having trouble surrendering when healing in Heroics... so I'll add my voice to what someone else mentioned about gear improving but surrender staying the same? I currently hit it once off cd in FPs (if I dont forget to) - since it's free, its off gcd and it does not hurt you anyhow (unless you waste your time on watching that ugly aimation, lol). Still, I got more or less regular group and tank is not the worst. So it's hard to say, which of those are real reasons that I don't have much overaggro issues. As we dont have any threat numbers in-game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metalmac Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I currently hit it once off cd in FPs (if I dont forget to) - since it's free, its off gcd and it does not hurt you anyhow (unless you waste your time on watching that ugly aimation, lol). Still, I got more or less regular group and tank is not the worst. So it's hard to say, which of those are real reasons that I don't have much overaggro issues. As we dont have any threat numbers in-game... I pull off our tanks all the time and I would have to say it hardly ever works so I have to use my shields or Disappearing Act to stay alive. For a ability that is supposed to drop threat I consider it pretty worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dripdropdripin Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Surrender seems a little bit unresponsive. I had to use it a couple of times during Soa in HM EV, and he dropped agro after hitting me twice after I surrendered. Honestly wouldn't be an issue if he didn't randomly switch agro to begin with, but it doesn't help that our drop threat ability isn't working to spec either. same thing happens to me with Soa he just loves to do it right when the pyramids about to drop... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stardrinker Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) I'll take a stab at it. Surrender does work, I've seen it make a mob untarget me when I pulled aggro, but only happens reliably when not much total threat has been applied to said mob. What this tells me is that Surrender has either a static amount of threat that it will drop or a very poorly scaling threat drop that scales with a stat like, say, power. Also from what I've read, mobs follow a similar threat system to WoW where you need to exceed that current aggro holder by 30% if you're not next to the mob (i.e. 130% total threat) or 10% if in melee range (110%). This means that in order to stop the mob going after you, the tank has to either taunt it or have 130% of your current threat if he's outside melee range or have 110% of your current threat if he's inside melee range. This can be really tough to do once a fight has been established for a while because once you have pulled aggro off the tank, you are now considered the tank (meaning they have to actually have 10%-30% more threat than you to pull it back off) and on top of that, you start off with a >30% threat lead. So that's what I think is happening. Short term fights you can use it to drop aggro, but long terms fights you'll need to be using it pro-actively if threat is an issue. Best just hope you have a tank that doesn't blindly blow his taunt CDs. Edited February 23, 2012 by Stardrinker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dabuzugzug Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Thank you everyone for your responses, I think we're starting to get a feel for what is going on with Surrender. We have so far the observation that it seems to work against (dps) companions, the static amount vs percentage hypothesis, the possibilities that it may be proactive or require waiting for the full GCD duration, and some confirmations of unresponsiveness. In my first post I did forget to mention that I'm a gunslinger, and usually out at the 130% aggro pull range, which does make me think that Stardrinker has a great point on the tank re-establishing aggro if the target is out at the 130% range. I am going to make sure to test this out in the next day or two and will post what I find. I have done some additional testing however, and I'm starting to think that there may be more going on. In short I think as the aggro interactions become more complex surrender stops working properly. I only have one observation and a couple of tests to report on at the moment, hopefully they can tell us something. To begin with the observation, we were fighting Malgus in False Emperor HM a couple of nights ago and something strange happened with the threat mechanics. Following a tank stun, but with full aggro on the tank, I pulled Malgus and popped surrender and it didn't work. What was wierd though was that the tank taunted, saw the red taunt indicator, and Malgus still didn't return to the tank for about 2 seconds (he wasn't casting or doing any special abilities at the time). Well maybe Malgus is just buggy anyway, but perhaps there is some influence from a surrender bug in this situation, I am not going to speculate much further. Now Melkathi's point about having trouble using surrender while healing ties into what I think could be the real interactive influence making surrender seem buggy. In that false emp run we tested against an ordinary elite droid pat near the beginning with everyone tanking, dpsing, and healing like normal until it had about 1/3 health left. Then everyone else stopped and I just spammed Flurry of Bolts about 6 times to barely gain aggro before popping surrender and it did not work. I also did several similar tests with a sentinel friend while running dailies, with 2 healer companions out, same results. We would dps a bit, with him having an aggro lead, then I'd barely pull and nothing happened with surrender. I even just let it go a few times to see if the full duration idea was pertinent. I am thinking now that there may be some sort of issue, which may run deeper, with healing aggro added to the mix. I guess some more testing of Stardrinker's idea is the next step, along with pulling off of healing aggro vs. no healing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRieh Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 As far as I get it - some of you mention here operations boss agro mechanics, and I suppose those may REALLY be different from regular mob. I'm pretty sure there must be random aggro cases \ untauntable bosses (and\or adds), also some of those may reset their threat as a part of fighting mechanics all over FPs\Ops. Bugs still may happen, yep. But I wouldn't use bosses and "special" combats for attempting to test this skill out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dabuzugzug Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Yes, context matters but...really the "special" encounters are when these mechanics actually matter. How often do you worry about dropping aggro while soloing really? My tests are conducted against ordinary mobs and in HMs, I doubt my ops group would want to stop just to try, I just ask for guard (and apologize to my tanks beforehand). Edited February 23, 2012 by Dabuzugzug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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