Sooo... where's the beef?

[Kaellan]

Admittedly, I haven't hit 50. If that raises your hackles off the bat, move along. (I feel the need to clarify that I'm not trolling, I'm really just asking. I suppose that is my first mistake, as it seems MMO forums are hardly the place to find meaningful discussion.)

 

I spent some time on these forums before rolling my Op, and I won't lie.... It was disheartening... but I haven't encountered any situation that really made me feel underpowered. I've healed and played Dmg in both PvE and PvP content... and don't seem to have the issues that I see people posting about here. So, the point of my post here is... what's got everyone so upset?

 

I've played a facerolling Sorc and it was....neat. But it did feel too easy. I enjoy the challenge of having to work for my stats (primarily speaking PvP). I've seen a lot of comments about Ops not excelling and other classes being able to do so much better, but I'm really at a loss to find one instance, in my experience, that this rings true.

 

Is 50 so much different? Specifically, what challenges do Ops face during End-Game content (PvP and PvE)?

 

Now, before you classify me as a 'bleeding heart' or 'whiteknight' or whatever fancy lingo you kids are using these days... Stop and comprehend. I'm just asking. I'm not saying that I'm better and you're worse. I'm really, simply... just looking for decent feedback.

 

Kirk Out.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Kaellan

[Xaearth]

Is 50 so much different? Specifically, what challenges do Ops face during End-Game content (PvP and PvE)?

 

Leveling is easy. You can do it solo and any group content can easily be bypassed without hurting the leveling process.

 

Endgame is different because it's just that - endgame.

 

Group structure becomes important thanks to enrage timers and encounters being tuned to a certain group composition.

 

If you could reliably succeed with 4 healers in an 8 man operation, things might be different, but the encounters and enrage are optimized for just 2 healers with 3 pushing it.

 

When you only have so many spots and have to work to meet a certain level of efficiency to reliably complete the content, there's an opportunity cost for that healer slot equivalent to what one of the other healers could bring instead of you.

 

The unfortunate reality is that Operatives don't bring anything to PvE that another class couldn't do better, be it healing or DPS.

 

The same is true of PvP, but, because you're not facing an encounter that is tuned for a certain efficiency and instead are facing living players, skilled Operatives can still do well, though they'd generally do better on one of the other classes.

[Hamchuck]

What Xaearth said.

 

Of course, if you have yourself a good group or a guild, it really removes a lot of the burdens of playing at end-game. My guild isn't focused on either PvP or PvE, but we have groups of both going. I'm in the core group of raiders right now because, well, the group I ran HMs with pretty much started it, and that group consists of 2 operatives, a powertech and a juggernaut. I imagine it's harder to play the operative in all situations -- particularly since boss encounters are generally melee-unfriendly -- but if the group you're with like you and know they can count on you, then they'll turn to you before they go to a sorc with awesome deeps but horrendous attitude.

 

Admittedly, I'm kind of a glutton for punishment, so I'll be playing my operative regardless of nerfs. That said, it'll come full circle soon enough. It always does.

[jasimpson]

I've played a facerolling Sorc and it was....neat. But it did feel too easy. I enjoy the challenge of having to work for my stats (primarily speaking PvP). I've seen a lot of comments about Ops not excelling and other classes being able to do so much better, but I'm really at a loss to find one instance, in my experience, that this rings true.

 

Is 50 so much different? Specifically, what challenges do Ops face during End-Game content (PvP and PvE)?

 

First off let me say nothing wrong with the question, leveling up is slightly more balanced then end game. That being said, the main instance is that end game if you took an equally geared/skilled sorc and compared it to an equally geared/skilled operative the op would get blown away. But like Hamchuck said if your group is good and can trust you, then end game pve will be fine. PvP can raise some questions though the biggest is that in my experience lvl 50s start interrupting more often and DS cant be used as a bait cast anymore, and an interrupted kolto injection is a huge blow to healing for the time its locked out. But I wouldn't give up with the OP or anything I have broken 500k heals many times in PvP (more then most sorcs I have seen) and my raid group loves having me as heals. So more or less what I was trying to say is that we don't feel that we can't hang with other heals end game we just have to work 2-3 times as hard to keep up and have 2-3 times less utility.

[XplaguesX]

the main problem i find in 50 pvp, is that theres to many freaking pushbacks. Sorc/Assassin/sage/shadow/BH/Trooper will all push you back like 30m and just spam ranged attacks till your dead. we have no gap closer, so if cloak screen is on CD, were toast.

 

its not that we cant kill people, although some classes are harder then others. but if were alone, and theres more then 1 person targeting us, were done for.

Edited February 18, 2012 by XplaguesX

[Shroudveil]

up until 8man hm operations it is equal to other specs (healing wise) after that (16m, nm, etc) the differance is way too apparent.

 

in pvp you have the least survivability but it is tolerable if you manage to utilize cover for tumble and have someone guarding you or something.

 

(healing wise)

Edited February 18, 2012 by Shroudveil

[Kaellan]

Thanks for the well thought out replies. I appreciate the insight. I'll continue to level up and enjoy the challenge that this class provides. Is it harder than other classes? I think so, but, for me... it's gratifying dropping the 'easy' classes and then teabagging them. LoL, I kid... (only because you can't really teabag)... but it's true for me.

 

It seems that some of the gripes stem from preferences in playstyle, but it's also worth saying that aspects of this class could use some love.

 

Again, thanks for the feedback and I look forward to progress with this class.

 

EDIT: I did feel like mentioning that I think Tracer Missile is teh dumb. Just saying... the Mercs that spam that are the first to get the bag.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Kaellan

[chuixupu]

- but if the group you're with like you and know they can count on you, then they'll turn to you before they go to a sorc with awesome deeps but horrendous attitude.

 

^This.

 

Not necessarily a horrendous attitude either, I've just been playing with the same people in different games for years, and we always are about bringing the player, not the class.

Classes get buffed and nerfed, players don't (except for when they're drinking).

Since HM EV is actually seeming surprisingly easy, the last thing anyone is thinking is replacing our operative healer and dps for someone who we don't even know works well with our team and could decide to bail at any time if things aren't going well.

I'm sure we will all cry in Nightmare mode, but we will cry together as friends.

 

Operatives have it a lot better than rogues did pre-WOTLK at least.

No raid buffs, or debuffs. No aoe. No reliable CC. No healing, no battle rez. Poison immune bosses. They brought nothin'. But they looked best with Warglaives.

[XplaguesX]

one thing youl learn to hate as an op, is if you come out of stealth to attack someone, and theres more then 1-2 other enemys around, and your cloak screen is down, theres a 75% chance your dying. once were out of stealth, were sitting ducks to ranged. shield probe lasts maybe 1-2 tracer missles if were lucky.

[Luwak]

Level 50 is an entirely different game from a PvP viewpoint. I've been leveling a sorc alt (I feel like I need an ace in the hole when they finally nerf us into oblivion, intentionally or otherwise...). In warzones, I see no coordination, no focus firing, no awareness of the map objectives, incomplete toolboxes, people standing around waiting 2-3 seconds between using abilities (maybe they are playing in the dark and trying to figure out which key the bound them to?), etc... I was joking the other day that they must all have the same ability flowchart:

 

Pick random ability->Is it useable?->Yes->Use it!->No->Return to beginning.

 

At 50 the game changes. Even your most basic pug will usually be coordinated enough to form a coherent win strategy, and be vocal about map objectives. Healers or other high priority targets will be focus fired by the other team. The class balance changes completely (90% sorcs and mercs). Also, for a new 50, the gear differential is insane. You put out about 50% of the damage geared players do, and they have about 50% more HP than you do. There are maybe 1-2 targets that a new 50 operative can kill in a given game assuming he plays really well.

 

Hence the derision when someone comments about the state of PvP balance with anecdotal evidence from 1-49. Two separate games.

[HeavenlyBluE]

From my understanding (and it's limited concerning dps) operatives stack up poorly in raids.

 

Since you're talking about PvP, a good concealment operative is a very threatening class in PvP. It was recently nerfed (even though it was fine) because of so many cryers. But generally against Pub warzones, a well played operative can decimate the oppositiion.

 

I suspect that in rated warzones, operatives won't be good because they've always been pretty simple to shut down with proper play (think rogue in wow. Great up to about ~2000 rating. Great for facerolling scrubs in BGs, but very challenging to play against strong, well-geared opposition.)

 

As for healing in warzones, we're well behind sorc because of their broken spec (which is being fixed in 1.2). They can do 600k damage and 250k healing with the hybrid spec. That said I've done over 600k healing in warzones (with pretty poor gear for pvp... some champ and the rest top end pve gear - I'm mainly a fat raider), and feel like operative healers can be quite effective when played properly. But again it's a high skill required class. We don't have the escape tools of the sorc or the armor of the merc, so you need very solid positioning as well as mechanical ability (whereas the sorc or merc can just roll their face).

Edited February 19, 2012 by HeavenlyBluE

[Kaellan]

Wow, I'm not gonna lie... I expected a flame fest. Thanks again for all the feedback. Glad to see there is a supportive community out there.

[Reveillere]

the main problem i find in 50 pvp, is that theres to many freaking pushbacks. Sorc/Assassin/sage/shadow/BH/Trooper will all push you back like 30m and just spam ranged attacks till your dead. we have no gap closer, so if cloak screen is on CD, were toast.

 

its not that we cant kill people, although some classes are harder then others. but if were alone, and theres more then 1 person targeting us, were done for.

 

assassins/shadows/sorcs/sages kb is for 5m....30m? =) that being said, if a ranged assassin/shadow can kill u, u need to quit this game, worst spec ever in pvp l0l

[Attaraxia]

Admittedly, I haven't hit 50. If that raises your hackles off the bat, move along. (I feel the need to clarify that I'm not trolling, I'm really just asking. I suppose that is my first mistake, as it seems MMO forums are hardly the place to find meaningful discussion.)

 

I spent some time on these forums before rolling my Op, and I won't lie.... It was disheartening... but I haven't encountered any situation that really made me feel underpowered. I've healed and played Dmg in both PvE and PvP content... and don't seem to have the issues that I see people posting about here. So, the point of my post here is... what's got everyone so upset?

 

I've played a facerolling Sorc and it was....neat. But it did feel too easy. I enjoy the challenge of having to work for my stats (primarily speaking PvP). I've seen a lot of comments about Ops not excelling and other classes being able to do so much better, but I'm really at a loss to find one instance, in my experience, that this rings true.

 

Is 50 so much different? Specifically, what challenges do Ops face during End-Game content (PvP and PvE)?

 

Now, before you classify me as a 'bleeding heart' or 'whiteknight' or whatever fancy lingo you kids are using these days... Stop and comprehend. I'm just asking. I'm not saying that I'm better and you're worse. I'm really, simply... just looking for decent feedback.

 

Kirk Out.

 

I don't think anyone here cares that you haven't hit 50 yet, so long as you don't pretend to post from a position of knowledge you don't have. (Also, meaningful discussion takes place on the role boards, not the class boards. For the most part.)

 

In PvE: You won't encounter difficulty until nightmare ops (barring really bad groups), so on this front you're probably in the best boat out of any of us. Unless you're extremely hardcore or extremely lucky, you won't reach Nightmare until the 'fixes' are right around the corner... and unless they make things WORSE, you'll be well-off when you DO hit Nightmare.

 

In PvP: I honestly think you should still reroll. Our coming 'fixes' will not include addition of a PvP utility move, because there is no high-end ranked PvP for bioware to run 'internal metrics' on to conclude that we're weak. Clearly, the balance team feels that we have enough utility now (a bitter joke, at best), and that we only need number-based adjusting.

 

This will not change until some time long after ranked PvP is implemented (to give them time to take internal measurements, since community input is clearly not good enough), and therefore over the course of the next few months our PvP lot will not change significantly. Better numbers will be nice, but the core problem will almost certainly not be addressed. For that reason more than any other, I suggest getting yourself a merc/sorc.

 

 

I try not to flame. I really do. I think most of the community feels pretty much the same... but there are some people on here that would make even Gandhi get mean.

[XplaguesX]

assassins/shadows/sorcs/sages kb is for 5m....30m? =) that being said, if a ranged assassin/shadow can kill u, u need to quit this game, worst spec ever in pvp l0l

 

 

i was just listing them as classes that had an AOE knockback on a short CD. IMO it should be a sorc/sage skill only

[Myber]

I suspect that in rated warzones, operatives won't be good because they've always been pretty simple to shut down with proper play (think rogue in wow. Great up to about ~2000 rating. Great for facerolling scrubs in BGs, but very challenging to play against strong, well-geared opposition.)

.

 

......if that was your PoV on rogues then really, you never learned the class to its fullest.

 

On the other hand, now, Ops. All i see about the ops is that its atracting the more skilled players, players who seek underdog classes to prevail with. I usualy try to do this as its more satisfactory. Then again, as mentionen countless times before, put all this effort into pretty much any other class out there and you will be twice the devastating machine. Sure operatives work pre 50, but after that your screwd against anyone with half a brain.

For another WoW resemblence you could take the early retripaladin. Pre tbc. Without being decked out in epics you really could not compete in ANYTHING unless you severely outgeard/brained your oponents. This is the same deal except even the gear will only take you that far.