Mercs and OP get a buff and Sorcs get a nerf in 1.2

[MizuRyuu]

I like to be hopeful, but the response is underwhelming...

 

The defense of the Sage AOE, I get it, they don't think it is OP and don't think it deserve a nerf, neither do any of us, but that doesn't mean the AOE for the other classes are comparable...

 

The EMP comment... I'm stunned... when I read that, I was literally lost for words.... How in the world does EMP count as burst healing... This comment fills me with dread, since this make it seem like the head developer does not even understand how sawbone healing works, which mean any fixes that comes ( and I am starting to doubt there will be any major fixes in the pipeline at all) would most likely cause more problems than they would fix.

 

While the bunch of change coming in 1.2 is encouraging, the previous part of the paragraph make me have very low expectation. Since they believe that Sawbones are not underpowered in comparison to Sage, I now expect that any changes will be minor and cosmetic... Possible change may be changes to the UI so it is easier to see UH proc and SRMP duration.... small bug fixes... AKA, nothing that would really fix the balance and stop people from leaving for greener pasture...

 

I really want to stay with my Sawbones, but I am hedging my bet with a dps alt (Yes, I am staying away from making a Sage for now since I like to believe they will improve Scoundrel)... Once my alt catches up to my Sawbones, I will be shelving the Sawbones away until they finally realize they need to revamp the class.... If the 1.2 changes really are as underwhelming as I expect, I will probably also make a Sage too and join the bandwagon...

[Donnadarco]

Its like me spending five minutes telling you what a failure you are and how ugly you are, then right afterwords giving a vague statement that maybe we should do something together sometime, maybe -- somehow I don't think I'd get my hopes up that we have a date in the foreseeable future.

 

Yes spot on ! lol there is no time/ money or manpower to start "fixing" the ugly duckling. The only thing you can do is to give false promises (George) about the future and what it holds, thats the truth.....

people cant start to move around in a rocky boat, then it will capsize and drag everyone in the water. To many changes to 1 class will make a mess to the already existing class balance.

 

The improvement will be a button that allows you to delete your scoundrel/op and reroll sage/sorc with a single click, as opposed to it taking multiple.

 

Im sure this will be part of the Ui changes ;P

 

I really want to stay with my Sawbones, but I am hedging my bet with a dps alt (Yes, I am staying away from making a Sage for now since I like to believe they will improve Scoundrel)... Once my alt catches up to my Sawbones, I will be shelving the Sawbones away until they finally realize they need to revamp the class.... If the 1.2 changes really are as underwhelming as I expect, I will probably also make a Sage too and join the bandwagon...

 

Yes i got almost full set of Dps gear. Swap to Scrapper and punch people in the face to cool my head off, and keep on enjoying my Bad*** inquisitor.

[Aluscia]

I used to be a mature adult with valuable input like you, but then I took a Surgical Probe to an old knee injury...

 

Best response on this thread yet. 10/10

[Crystus]

Even if the operative and sorc aoe healed for the same amount, sorc aoe healing is clearly superior.

 

While a Sorc has a 2 second activation time and the op is instant, the first tick of healing for the sorc is at 2 seconds vs 3 seconds for the operative.

 

The rate of healing is also faster for the sorc over the operative.

 

People out of range of the sorc heal can run into range after it is cast and still benefit from the majority of the healing.

 

It is hard to come up with a situation where the operative aoe is better than the sorc base abilities. Even in a high mobility fight where people have to stay spread out, multiple individual shields are going to be more effective at keeping people from dying than the operative's aoe.

[Veriu]

This is the part that bothers me the most, because I don't think he realizes what he's saying. Could 2 Scoundrel healers heal Nightmare 8s? How about Commandos? I can guarantee you 2 Sage healers could (and that many guilds only run with Sage healers). I believe the answer to my first two questions is no and no - there's simply too much burst healing required on too many targets for double-Scoundrel to be viable. I'm not even sure double-Commando would work out any better. Scoundrel + Commando would be dicey too.

 

Not always, but sometimes my guild runs two operative healers, and we do just fine. I was a little worried the first night we ended up running with both of them, but we had no major issues.

 

if your op healers can't do it, get ones that don't suck.

 

I'm not saying op healing is equal to sage healing, or that op healing doesn't need help.

 

I'm saying that the content is still easily doable with operative healers.

 

and yes, I'm talking about nightmare mode.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Veriu

[Shroudveil]

Not always, but sometimes my guild runs two operative healers, and we do just fine. I was a little worried the first night we ended up running with both of them, but we had no major issues.

 

if your op healers can't do it, get ones that don't suck.

 

I'm not saying op healing is equal to sage healing, or that op healing doesn't need help.

 

I'm saying that the content is still easily doable with operative healers.

 

and yes, I'm talking about nightmare mode.

 

Now,imagine you are a gl and new content comes out. Which two healers will you take for PROGRESSION, you know when not everyone is decked out in the current bis and have memorized mechanics in a way that they are able to follow them blindfolded?

 

Personally i don't consider myself viable if i need to be in bis and still have to try 10 times harder to do something another class do in 1 tier lower equip and he plays with 1 hand.

[Veriu]

Now,imagine you are a gl and new content comes out. Which two healers will you take for PROGRESSION, you know when not everyone is decked out in the current bis and have memorized mechanics in a way that they are able to follow them blindfolded?

 

Personally i don't consider myself viable if i need to be in bis and still have to try 10 times harder to do something another class do in 1 tier lower equip and he plays with 1 hand.

 

Did you read my post?

 

I said op healing needed help.

 

I was just commenting on the other poster who said that two op healers couldn't handle the current content. They can if they are good.

 

I main a tank, and from a tanks point of view I feel more comfortable with an op healer than a sorc healer. Yes, my health fluxuates more (due to cast times/no bubble/etc), but they are able to get my health back up faster after burst damage phases.

 

From a raid leader point of view, a sorc healer is much more desirable due to bubbles, AoE healing, etc...

 

Op's are tank healers, sorc's are more raid healers. In current content Ops need help with their aoe & raid healing capabilities. In future content who knows, maybe the next tier will have less raid damage & more tank damage and then it'll be the sorc's complaining about how they aren't viable for the content.

 

Just like next tier could have 3/4 of all bosses attacking with force damage, which would make assassins the best tank for them (they have higher force damage resistance).

 

If you don't mind the analogy, Op healers are like holy paladins in WoTLK. But the content isn't there to show off their strengths.

 

It is a problem, and one that Bioware needs to fix. But saying that Operative healers are worthless is just going to make the problem worse (people who don't know any better read these forums, if they see Op healers saying that Op healing is worthless, they might believe it...which will make them less likely to invite an Op healer).

[Aluscia]

You are so misguided it isn't even funny. What's your guild and where's the video of you clearing KP/EV Nightmare 8 with 2 Operative healers (and no other healers). Because if you're taking 3 healers for 8-man content, you're not proving anything about the viability of the class. If you're talking about taking 2 to 16's (out of 4 healers), you missed the point I made.

 

If you, as a tank, feel that a 4K-ish bubble + the HoT + the channel + the same big heals Ops have is somehow less desirable than a big heal + a HoT + an occasional top up burst heal, I don't know what to tell you other than that you don't know how to look at numbers. Heck, if a Sage/Sorc decides to drop their AE heal on the tank it's superior to an Ops' HoT (almost). It takes less time to cast (compared to 2 GCDs to 2 stack the Op HoT), and assuming the tank doesn't need to move too much, heals more consistantly (every second instead of every 3?).

 

Stop trying to make it sound like Scoundrels/Ops are bad because they can't do things - We know we can do things (I've personally done them). We want to do things as well as other classes so the stated design philosophy of different, but equal, is met. Currently, it's not.

[TheronFett]

Yea, this was the most epic line of the whole post. The ignorance here is staggering.

 

Ya, pretty much. Surgical Probe is considered burst healing?

No wonder Operative healers are so horrible.

 

And he keeps referencing "their players". These must be the most epic players on the planet because no one else can seem to enter Godmode like they can.

[Shroudveil]

Did you read my post?

 

I said op healing needed help.

 

I was just commenting on the other poster who said that two op healers couldn't handle the current content. They can if they are good.

 

I main a tank, and from a tanks point of view I feel more comfortable with an op healer than a sorc healer. Yes, my health fluxuates more (due to cast times/no bubble/etc), but they are able to get my health back up faster after burst damage phases.

 

From a raid leader point of view, a sorc healer is much more desirable due to bubbles, AoE healing, etc...

 

Op's are tank healers, sorc's are more raid healers. In current content Ops need help with their aoe & raid healing capabilities. In future content who knows, maybe the next tier will have less raid damage & more tank damage and then it'll be the sorc's complaining about how they aren't viable for the content.

 

Just like next tier could have 3/4 of all bosses attacking with force damage, which would make assassins the best tank for them (they have higher force damage resistance).

 

If you don't mind the analogy, Op healers are like holy paladins in WoTLK. But the content isn't there to show off their strengths.

 

It is a problem, and one that Bioware needs to fix. But saying that Operative healers are worthless is just going to make the problem worse (people who don't know any better read these forums, if they see Op healers saying that Op healing is worthless, they might believe it...which will make them less likely to invite an Op healer).

 

you forgot to add the part that mercs are far better tank healers than operatives.

 

also the part where di+innervate is equal or more bursty than ki+sp.

 

so, even if they put more tankhealing intenisve bosses that would just mean that instead of guilds preffering sorc+sorc they would be preffering merc+sorc, which by the way synergizes perfect with each other.

 

as it stands now, we offer 0 utility. we have 0 healing cds, we do same/lower tank healing with sorcs/mercs, we do less aoe healing than sorcs, we have equal mobility with sorcs.

 

if you add those up, THERE ISN'T A SINGLE FIGHT ATM WHERE OPERATIVE WOULD BE THE HEALER OF CHOICE.

 

we dont need "tweaks" we need a)utility, b)ways to regen energy on a 30sec window and not 2min (hint, current DS is a joke, buff it to 4/8energy and make it instyant and we talk)

 

we also have countless amount of plainly useless talents, or talents that are way to cost inneffective.

 

sure, if you outgear the content you can heal it, not with ease, but you can.

 

once again: WE OFFER NOTHING to an operation, a simple tweak wont be enough to fix this unless they give as a single overpowered utility (which would suck because it will then be nerfed in next patch).

[SirPayne]

"significant burst healing" and "surgical probe" in one sentence?

 

significant [sɪgˈnɪfɪkənt]

 

important, notable, or momentous

having or likely to have a major effect

fairly large in amount or quantity

[Veriu]

You are so misguided it isn't even funny. What's your guild and where's the video of you clearing KP/EV Nightmare 8 with 2 Operative healers (and no other healers). Because if you're taking 3 healers for 8-man content, you're not proving anything about the viability of the class. If you're talking about taking 2 to 16's (out of 4 healers), you missed the point I made.

 

If you, as a tank, feel that a 4K-ish bubble + the HoT + the channel + the same big heals Ops have is somehow less desirable than a big heal + a HoT + an occasional top up burst heal, I don't know what to tell you other than that you don't know how to look at numbers. Heck, if a Sage/Sorc decides to drop their AE heal on the tank it's superior to an Ops' HoT (almost). It takes less time to cast (compared to 2 GCDs to 2 stack the Op HoT), and assuming the tank doesn't need to move too much, heals more consistantly (every second instead of every 3?).

 

Stop trying to make it sound like Scoundrels/Ops are bad because they can't do things - We know we can do things (I've personally done them). We want to do things as well as other classes so the stated design philosophy of different, but equal, is met. Currently, it's not.

 

2 op healers in 8 man, not bring a 3rd healer (wth brings 3 healers to an 8 man???) and why the hell would I video a raid we clear every single week???? oh look guys, here's the boss you've killed for the last month, isn't it exciting!!!

 

- Kolto probe should only be used to proc ticks of TA. It heals for jack crap.

 

- Occasional burst heal...wth move is that? If that is surgical probe, then it isn't occasional...you should be casting it after every KI & every time KP procs TA.

 

Try tanking nightmare bosses...a 4k bubble < 1 hit from frenzyed foreman crusher (woot woot, the first hit of 20 was absorbed the bubble...only 19 more to go!). A hot? a channel? Wth cares about something that is ticking for like 600 when I'm getting hit for 5K+ a hit every second before cd's.....I'll take my consistent, never run out of energy, 6k + 1K healer, thank you.

 

I'm not saying foreman is hard to heal through, but I think it is the most tank healing fight in the game...and as a tank, I like getting heals that actually match up to the damage I'm taking during it and seeing the healers still at full energy at the end.

 

Who here is saying that Ops can't do things? It isn't me. I'm saying that you can do things....

 

Read what I wrote, don't read things into it. Someone said that ops can't heal current content. I said "yes, they can...if you can't, then you suck" I never said it was easy, I said it is possible.

 

I agree, op healers need work. I said that before. I said bioware needs to fix them. Do you like only read every other line of what I post or something? Or are you just taking it personally that I said bad operative healers can't heal stuff. I'll say that about any class. Bad sorc healers can't heal content. Bad merc healers can't heal content. Bad PT tanks can't tank content. Bad Jug tanks can't tank content. Bad Assassin tanks can't tank content...do I need to go on to all the DPS?

 

Bad players, suck at playing and die alot. They then go to the forums and whine about their class. I'm not saying that everyone on the forums is bad. I'm saying that bad players die, and then blame their class for their deaths.

 

Are there some classes that are better at things than others? yes.

 

Can all classes perform their roles well enough to clear content if the player is skilled? yes.

 

That doesn't mean bioware shouldn't nerf/buff stuff...and they will, this is an MMO. If you can't handle being on the low end of the totem pole, play another genre. There will always be an underpowered healer/tank/dps & an overpowered healer/tank/dps. It is that way in every MMO.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Veriu

[Xaearth]

Try tanking nightmare bosses...a 4k bubble < 1 hit from frenzyed foreman crusher (woot woot, the first hit of 20 was absorbed the bubble...only 19 more to go!). A hot? a channel? Wth cares about something that is ticking for like 600 when I'm getting hit for 5K+ a hit every second before cd's.....I'll take my consistent, never run out of energy, 6k + 1K healer, thank you.

 

I'm not saying foreman is hard to heal through, but I think it is the most tank healing fight in the game...and as a tank, I like getting heals that actually match up to the damage I'm taking during it and seeing the healers still at full energy at the end.

 

Don't take this personally, but you, sir, do not have a clue.

 

It isn't your fault. By your own admission you play a tank, not a healer, and so you're looking at things from a whole different perspective.

 

If your Op healers "never run out of energy", it isn't because they're healing well. It's because the damage isn't actually threatening enough for them to ever have to leave their energy neutral rotation.

 

That's pretty much a good thing for the tiered resource healers. The problem with this is twofold:

1) Sorcs can put up comparable healing numbers without having to worry about staying energy neutral

2) Any situation where an Op can stay energy neutral with their single target rotation, a Merc would perform better

 

Now, if there are NM 8 mans out there excluding Ops, who are mathematically and mechanically inferior to one of the other healers in each and every situation, and still not having "no issue clearing" runs...

 

In other words, your 2 Operative ops team is compensating in other areas (most likely some overgeared min/maxers) in order for that experience to resemble a smooth encounter in the least bit.

[Veriu]

Don't take this personally, but you, sir, do not have a clue.

 

It isn't your fault. By your own admission you play a tank, not a healer, and so you're looking at things from a whole different perspective.

 

If your Op healers "never run out of energy", it isn't because they're healing well. It's because the damage isn't actually threatening enough for them to ever have to leave their energy neutral rotation.

 

That's pretty much a good thing for the tiered resource healers. The problem with this is twofold:

1) Sorcs can put up comparable healing numbers without having to worry about staying energy neutral

2) Any situation where an Op can stay energy neutral with their single target rotation, a Merc would perform better

 

Now, if there are NM 8 mans out there excluding Ops, who are mathematically and mechanically inferior to one of the other healers in each and every situation, and still not having "no issue clearing" runs...

 

In other words, your 2 Operative ops team is compensating in other areas (most likely some overgeared min/maxers) in order for that experience to resemble a smooth encounter in the least bit.

 

I actually have both a tank and a healer, both are lvl 50 & I'm raiding on both of them.

 

I'm not arguing that operatives are better than other healers. I'm not even arguing that operatives are equal to other healers. I'm arguing that they can heal the current content.

 

As for my comment that I perfer operative healers as a tank...so what? I like big numbers on the heals I receive...it's like DPS who like big numbers...after being healed by different healers in HM flashpoints, normal mode operations, hardmode & nightmare operations I'm just saying that from my point of view I like operative healers better than the other healers. This is a good thing isn't it? As a healer, don't you want some tanks to prefer your class?

 

overgeared? hmm...doubtful, we've seen few IA drops so far...they each have like 3 or 4 pieces of rakata, and this is after a month or so of clearing HM/NiM.

 

min/maxers? well...no (*&*&^...yes, we are a progression raiding guild, we recruited people who min/max & try to get every inch out of their characters...everyone in the raid group is min/maxing....

[Zellandine]

I loath, I absolutely loath, when people use the argument that Operatives can clear the current content. Like it's relevant. Like it has anything to do with what is being talked about. I find Georg's post to be pretty disheartening, honestly. The vagueness of his statement and the "L2P" feel of most of it is just.. disappointing. Nobody cares if you can clear content with an Op healer, mmk? That isn't the point here.

 

A Sorc/Op works well enough in most situations, because as I've stated before, Sorcerer is capable of covering up for the Operative's glaring gaps in function. It isn't a matter of "you can do it!" It's a matter of 'how much stress is it for me to compete in a raiding setting to complete the raid objectives compared to a much more ability-proficient healer?' You can eat steak with a spoon. Eventually. Why would you do it, though, when you have a fork and knife available?

 

I'm sorry, but telling us that Operatives can clear current content is meaningless. It has no purpose here. It isn't that the class can't function in some... way. It's that the class isn't a competitive healer. It's a constant up hill battle. The amount of effort expended by an Operative versus a Sorcerer in the same scenario is not equal. That is the problem. How many times are raids wiping comparatively? How often are people dying on encounters? This isn't a matter of people simply being bad and whining to cover their own asses.

 

Don't tell me to L2P. Learn to balance, not make excuses.

 

The tone of this post is probably not kind, but at this point, I simply don't care.

[Xaearth]

I actually have both a tank and a healer, both are lvl 50 & I'm raiding on both of them.

 

Gonna go out on a limb and say a Sorc healer?

Because if it was Merc you wouldn't be that impressed with Operative ST heals.

And if it were an Operative, I'm not sure why you aren't arguing from that point of view, instead of that of your tank who likes Op heals.

 

As for my comment that I perfer operative healers as a tank...so what? I like big numbers on the heals I receive...it's like DPS who like big numbers...after being healed by different healers in HM flashpoints, normal mode operations, hardmode & nightmare operations I'm just saying that from my point of view I like operative healers better than the other healers. This is a good thing isn't it? As a healer, don't you want some tanks to prefer your class?

 

Except tanks don't prefer Operatives. Tanks prefer Mercs, because Mercs have better ST healing capability and more utility (outside of HoTs) than Operatives.

 

overgeared? hmm...doubtful, we've seen few IA drops so far...they each have like 3 or 4 pieces of rakata, and this is after a month or so of clearing HM/NiM.

 

min/maxers? well...no (*&*&^...yes, we are a progression raiding guild, we recruited people who min/max & try to get every inch out of their characters...everyone in the raid group is min/maxing....

 

I was referring to the rest of your raid group. In other words your tank and DPS are geared enough and min/maxing enough that they're making the content trivial for a Sorc to heal through and that much less stressful for the Operatives.

[Veriu]

Gonna go out on a limb and say a Sorc healer?

Because if it was Merc you wouldn't be that impressed with Operative ST heals.

And if it were an Operative, I'm not sure why you aren't arguing from that point of view, instead of that of your tank who likes Op heals.

 

I'm not arguing that merc's are worse than Ops.

 

and yes, a sorc healer/dps. I'm going to restate this for you, just incase you can't grasp this concept.

 

Op's need fixing. Bioware needs to buff them...and it will happen sometime in the future. Just like Sorcs will be nerfed sometime in the future....

 

 

Except tanks don't prefer Operatives. Tanks prefer Mercs, because Mercs have better ST healing capability and more utility (outside of HoTs) than Operatives.

 

Between an Operative & a sorc, I prefer an operative healing me as a tank. That was all I said. Please learn to read what people say.

 

I was referring to the rest of your raid group. In other words your tank and DPS are geared enough and min/maxing enough that they're making the content trivial for a Sorc to heal through and that much less stressful for the Operatives.

 

content being trivial is not a new thing, or a unique thing to groups with min/maxers.

 

regardless, my only point in this thread is to try to explain to you guys that you are making the problem worse. As you guys can't grasp that concept I'll explain it one time as explicitly as I can.

 

- A class/spec being the "bad healer", "bad tank" etc has more to do with perception than actual class/spec abilities.

- If people believe that Operative healers "can't heal content" then they won't invite Operative healers to groups. Regardless of whether or not Operative healers can actually heal content or not.

- If you guys whine on the forums about Operative healers sucking so much and being unable to heal content, some people will believe you, leading to Operative healers not being invited to groups, which leads to more Operative healers whining on the forums, which leads to more people believing you, etc etc etc....

 

Overstating a problem, generally leads to even worse issues. Operative healers need help, they need fixing. Sorc's need looking at, it does not make sense that the Sorc is the only AC in the game that never has to worry about resources as long as they are spec'd & played correctly. Operatives need a buff, sorc's need a nerf. It will happen eventually.

[RuQu]

lots of posts

 

While this thread might have quite a lot of complaining in it, that is largely a response to the Q&A answer. Leading up to that, this forum has been consistently constructive and non-whiny. A little nerd-rage when a Dev makes a post with a line as clearly ignorant of your mechanics as the EMP/SP burst healing line is probably to be expected.

 

While you are right that stating that a class is underpowered and therefore unwanted can be self-fulfilling, you also have to speak up about problems if you have any hope of bringing those problems to the attention of people who can fix them. Again, this is where using facts, numbers, and constructive discussion separates whining and complaining from providing needed feedback on things that need improvement.

 

On the topic of constructive, it is probably unsurprising that you are getting the sort of negative reaction you are getting, though you seem surprised by it.

 

A) You are making the same mistake of confusing "viable" with "competitive." Yes, Ops can clear content. No, an equally skilled Operative cannot perform any role as well as an equally skilled Sorc. Equal players should produce equal results with equal efforts. That is the definition of balance that most of us here are using, while you and, apparently Georg Zoeller are using the definition of "some people have pulled it off with every class, therefore all is good."

 

B) Your first post on the Healer forum was in this thread, and it included this line:

if your op healers can't do it, get ones that don't suck.

 

Considering that for many groups that are struggling the Operatives are the ones posting here, not, for instance, the dps, you just walked into a room, insulted everyone, and then were surprised when no one offered to get you a beer.

 

If you were to read through many of the threads here, you would see that many of the Operatives have cleared NM mode content, but they come here to post about how they feel like they were holding the group back and that the group succeeded despite their weaknesses, not because of their strengths. That is clearing content...but it isn't a good feeling. Many of them have also run the same content on Sorcs/Sages and report that, same player, they have cleared that content feeling like they pulled their own weight and had a far easier time, even with lower gear.

 

If you want to have people react to you better, try 1) getting to know your audience, 2) trying to understand where they come from (its worth noting that Im not a scoundrel or operative), 3) try not arguing a point they have heard repeatedly and that both misses the point and enrages them (viable/competitive mistake for example) and 4) try not opening with an insult.

[RuQu]

I know there is a lot of rage, but I think we need to keep in mind that this was the longest response we have seen.

 

Yes, it came across as defensive, and that tone for the first 2/3 of the post detracted a lot from the final 1/3, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't anything of value in that final third.

 

As others have said, "room for improvement" is PR-speak for "needs fixing." It would be nice if they would come out and say it, but that's not likely to ever happen for numerous reasons. Having the Lead Combat Designer openly admit that a class is broken would 1) give solid grounds for people to refuse to run Ops with that class, and 2) could be used as evidence that the game is flawed and drive down sales and new subs.

 

So he was never going to say that outright.

 

While more info would really be appreciated, I think there is grounds to be hopeful of real change in 1.2. First, the front loading of RN is a change in the mechanic, not just a tweak to the coefficient. The cooldown is also shorter than the duration, so now there are gains to be had in high mobility situations from clipping RN, and RN can be used as more of an emergency tool.

 

Combining the adjustment of mechanics with RN with the claim about a "sizable chunk" of changes coming, it suggests that there are multiple changes coming, possibly involving mechanics changes, but none of the others were set in stone enough to be announcable. I'm pretty convinced that they have at least looked over our Request thread, so hopefully there are some changes taken from or inspired by those included in the pipe.

 

Finally, cause its 230 in the morning and I should get some sleep, I think we need to ask why the tone was so defensive. I could be biased, but I don't think my question was phrased in such a way as to put them on the defensive. I tried to keep it fairly neutral, and I think I did.

 

So what set him off? My guess is that they looked into the numbers on Operatives/Scoundrels, and saw that, sure enough, they were under-represented in the Operations population, with their numbers decreasing both as time went on and as the level of content increased. My guess is that this is largely why the response shifted and discussed viablity instead of the classes being competitive, it was a defensive answer trying to cast the state of the game in as positive of a light as possible, and a the numbers supported viable, but not competitive or desired.

 

If anyone is curious, I updated the AoE comparison math in light of the stated 8 player cap on Salvation and added in a spot for what Kolto Bomb/Missile will do in Patch 1.2 if they raise the cap to 4 (as expected) without decreasing the coefficient (as hoped).

 

Short version: Over 30 seconds of AoE during a given fight (the lowest common multiple of the 3 classes AoE durations/cooldowns), a Sage will do 4.18 times more healing in an 8 man setting than a Commando will be capable of, which means that if, over the 10seconds it is on the ground, 8 people stand in it for any given 2.5 seconds it will be equal to the Commandos, or 4 people for 5 seconds, or dropping it on 2 people for the full duration. It remains 5.96 times more powerful than KC / RN, assuming the coefficient stays the same and they just shift it to be front loaded.

 

If you allow KB to heal 8 people, it would heal for 47% of what Salvation does (over 30 seconds, which needs 5 KBs vs 3 Salvs), which seems pretty balanced considering the fact that it is instant cast and applies a DR shield. 23.8%, which is what it will heal for over 30s with a 4 man cap, seems like a pretty steep tax for being instant cast.

[DarthVarrak]

RuQu, I'm curious, did you factor in the fact that we can drop two Kolto Missiles by the time the 10 second duration is up on the Sorc Revivification ability?

[SirPayne]

I loath, I absolutely loath, when people use the argument that Operatives can clear the current content. Like it's relevant. Like it has anything to do with what is being talked about. I find Georg's post to be pretty disheartening, honestly. The vagueness of his statement and the "L2P" feel of most of it is just.. disappointing. Nobody cares if you can clear content with an Op healer, mmk? That isn't the point here.

 

A Sorc/Op works well enough in most situations, because as I've stated before, Sorcerer is capable of covering up for the Operative's glaring gaps in function. It isn't a matter of "you can do it!" It's a matter of 'how much stress is it for me to compete in a raiding setting to complete the raid objectives compared to a much more ability-proficient healer?' You can eat steak with a spoon. Eventually. Why would you do it, though, when you have a fork and knife available?

 

I'm sorry, but telling us that Operatives can clear current content is meaningless. It has no purpose here. It isn't that the class can't function in some... way. It's that the class isn't a competitive healer. It's a constant up hill battle. The amount of effort expended by an Operative versus a Sorcerer in the same scenario is not equal. That is the problem. How many times are raids wiping comparatively? How often are people dying on encounters? This isn't a matter of people simply being bad and whining to cover their own asses.

 

QFT.

 

Playing an operative healer is like playing a one-legged football player. You are capable of scoring a goal, but your team would be better off with someone else.

[bobudo]

I loath, I absolutely loath, when people use the argument that Operatives can clear the current content. Like it's relevant. Like it has anything to do with what is being talked about. I find Georg's post to be pretty disheartening, honestly. The vagueness of his statement and the "L2P" feel of most of it is just.. disappointing. Nobody cares if you can clear content with an Op healer, mmk? That isn't the point here.

 

A Sorc/Op works well enough in most situations, because as I've stated before, Sorcerer is capable of covering up for the Operative's glaring gaps in function. It isn't a matter of "you can do it!" It's a matter of 'how much stress is it for me to compete in a raiding setting to complete the raid objectives compared to a much more ability-proficient healer?' You can eat steak with a spoon. Eventually. Why would you do it, though, when you have a fork and knife available?

 

I'm sorry, but telling us that Operatives can clear current content is meaningless. It has no purpose here. It isn't that the class can't function in some... way. It's that the class isn't a competitive healer. It's a constant up hill battle. The amount of effort expended by an Operative versus a Sorcerer in the same scenario is not equal. That is the problem. How many times are raids wiping comparatively? How often are people dying on encounters? This isn't a matter of people simply being bad and whining to cover their own asses.

 

Don't tell me to L2P. Learn to balance, not make excuses.

 

The tone of this post is probably not kind, but at this point, I simply don't care.

 

I came here to post something about how I felt, but then I stopped because I realized Zellandine had already beat me to it.

 

Stop comparing apples to oranges. It's the equivalent of saying "Truck and Planes are balanced at transporting people across the country. The numbers show that Trucks are clearing current cross-country content."

 

Sure, I CAN drive cross-country in a beat-up old pick-up truck, but I'd much rather fly there (since this is my metaphor, I'm making money a non-factor, so suck it).

 

But I think RuQu is right. Georg's posts very frequently have a dismissive and/or defensive tone to them (at least that's my impression) but that doesn't make him incompetent; and his fanaticism regarding data and metrics is evident from the tools he's insisted on building.

 

The fixes we need will happen. That has been a known quantity since we've started this discussion. Our unknowns, the thinks we've been fighting for, are "How Soon" and "How Much".

 

We now know how soon - March-ish (est. on 1.2 release).

 

Given that is a significantly short period of time from release, I can only imagine that Georg's numbers are reflecting out claims (I sure know that the Youtube videos on Operations strategies do). That suggests that the answer to "How Much" might be just as significant.

 

Keep the faith. Amen.

[Reixxer]

don worry socs n sages. 65% of subscribers n many "insiders" play this class. so u guys r very safe n far from the nerf AOE range.

 

i have made a soc n love the all rounder goodies this class has to offer. will play this till my last day of play in July 2012. (canceled by 6 month sub last week).

[RuQu]

RuQu, I'm curious, did you factor in the fact that we can drop two Kolto Missiles by the time the 10 second duration is up on the Sorc Revivification ability?

 

Here is a chunk of the relevant section:

 

Over 15 seconds:

3 Players / 4 Players / 8 Players

KB: 7676.13 / 10234.84* /-------------

KC: 4354.38 / 5805.84 / ------------

Salv: 12994.88 / 17326.5 / 34653 /

 

Now, this 15s time window is not necessarily fair to the Sage, because it requires a second cast that gets clipped. We can look at it different ways. Compare a single cast:

3 Players / 4 Players / 8 Players / 16 Players

KB (cost 16%): 2476.17 / 3301.56* /-------------

KC (cost 30%): 4354.38 / 5805.84 / -------------

Sa (cost 16%): 8663.25 / 11551 / 23102

 

Since those are very different time windows (1 cast,instantly applied, 15s HoT, 10s HoT) we can look at a fight window where, over some period, 30s of total AoE healing are needed. That is exactly 5 KB, 2 KC, or 3 Salv.

3 Players / 4 Players / 8 Players / 16 Players

KB : 12380.85 / 16507.8* /-------------

KC : 8708.76 / 11611.68 / -------------

Sa : 25989.75 / 34653 / 69306

 

*assuming Patch 1.2 takes us to 4 players with no coefficient change.

 

For nearly double the resource cost, Scoundrels have to hit all 4 targets to heal for the same amount as Troopers heal 3 targets, which also means the Troopers 3 players will be at higher health percentages (although that 4th guy is screwed). In a vacuum that trade-off would seem fair, if they were the same price. one more target for less healing per target is a debate where both sides might envy the other, and if that's not how we define balance in an MMO, I don't know what is.

 

However, this comparison is not existing in a vacuum, and there is another party present, with the same resource cost and nearly the same cast time as the Commando....the Sage. The price that the Sage pays is not being able to move while casting the AoE, for 1.6-2s depending on Alacrity values. The return on investment for that lack of mobility: they heal 3 targets for double what a Commando can do, 4 targets for 3 times what a Scoundrel can do, and they can go on to do an amazing 2310HPS if 8 (out of 8-16) people in an Op all group up for AoE, compared to a max AoE HPS of 412 (550@4 players post 1.2) for a Commando and 387.056 for a Scoundrel.

 

 

The short version (I promise Im working on having short versions) is that I compared a 15s window, which is the duration of KC/RN, but allows a total of 3 KB/KM casts and part of a second Salv, I compared a single cast, which is obviously unfair as KB/KM comes out very cheap and very weak, but it is also on a 6s cooldown vs 12, and I compared what I think is the fairest, a 30s window where the 15s KC/RN gets used twice, the 10s Salv gets used 3 times, and KB/KM gets used 5 times. Obviously in that last we don't see 30s of AoE needed at once, and Salv has a 12s cooldown, so that assumes that 30s of AoE healing get done at any time during the fight. Also, because 30s is the lowest common multiple of all of their durations/cooldowns, each of them could have been cast a final time at the end, which would just be adding the unbalanced single cast values onto the 30s values. I considered it most fair to assume that the same time window of healing was needed so the HPS could be compared.

 

Apparently I suck at short versions, but yes, I considered the differences in cost, cooldowns, and cast times.

[Gankstah]

I absolutely love when people refer to fixing a broken or bugged mechanic as a "nerf".