Bootzy Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 The first time I played an mmorpg, I joined a friend to be the healer in the team having no idea what a pvp server was. I will never play on a pvp server again. I don't ever want to be flagged. I'll stop playing, and I'll stop paying. I want a game with the toggle switch that says, "Never be flagged for pvp." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sotaudi Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) I'm fine with the auto-flagging for direct heals/buffs. If you're targeting someone to heal or buff them, you've had ample opportunity to see that they're flagged and change your mind about doing it. What matters now is that the potential for both enemy and ally greifing has been virtually eliminated. (It's still possible, but it's going to be very obvious what they're trying to do). Side Note: It's still somewhat difficult to tell if a corpse is pvp flagged, which can cause a flag to be set just for being nice and rezzing someone you come across in the world. As for listing 3 and 7 as issues, they're fairly minor ones. Not getting a group buff is just an annoyance, but I'll agree that it would be nice if there was an explanation telling them why they didn't get it. Indirect heals not affecting teammates could be a little worse, but as a healer I'm almost never using only indirect heals to keep someone alive, so the time when we'll have opposite flags is fairly limited. This thread was necroed, but I will respond to this. People keep using the "awareness" argument. On a PvP server, you should be aware that any action you take could involve you in PvP because, by rolling on a PvP server, you are volunteering for PvP at any time. On a PvE server, this argument is nonsense. Many, if not most, people roll on a PvE server specifically to avoid PvP at any time. Of those who choose to engage (even frequently) in PvP on a PvE server, they almost always choose a PvE server over a PvP one because they want to choose when and if they engage in PvP. They don't want the system or some other player making the choice for them. That being the case, why then should I have to be "aware" of your (or anyone else's) choice to enage in PvP when I have already declared my intention to not engage in PvP or to only engage in PvP when I want to by rolling on a PvE server? Why should I, on a PvE server where the vast majority of players will not be flagged the vast majority of time, have to verify the PvP flag status of every player I come across every time I want to do a beneficial action for that player? Your choice to engage in PvP is your choice just like it was your choice to roll on a PvE server to begin with. As such, it is your choice to accept the consequences and limitations of being flagged. Your choice to do so should not, in any way, be a decision for me to likewise accept those consequences. In other words, I should not have to be "aware" of your choice to become flagged. Your choice to become flagged should not be able to override my choice to never engage in PvP (or to do so only when I want to). Ideally, the system should have an option that you can set which will prevent you from inadvertently taking a PvP related action. The option should be set by default on a PvE server, and you can uncheck it if you want the system to work as is. It should be disabled on a PvP server and ignored when you are flagged for PvP (either manually or by entering a PvP zone or Warzone where you presence automatically declares your intention to PvP). If that is not added, then they should simply make it so that you have to manually flag on a PvE server to aid an ally or attack an enemy when either is flagged. The option to choose whether you can block autoflagging would be better, but there is simply no reason someone who rolled on a PvE server to avoid PvP should have to be "aware" of someone else's choice to PvP. The system should automatically prevent them from being involuntarily forced into PvP. The fact that it may add an extra step for those who want to engage in PvP is irrelevant. PvP is a choice on PvE servers. If you want to engage in it, then it is your responsibility to make the choices and take the actions necessary to do so. The onus of those choices should not be shifted to those who have not flagged and may not want to ever flag. Edited March 15, 2012 by Sotaudi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderVamp Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 This thread was necroed, but I will respond to this. People keep using the "awareness" argument. On a PvP server, you should be aware that any action you take could involve you in PvP because, by rolling on a PvP server, you are volunteering for PvP at any time. On a PvE server, this argument is nonsense. Many, if not most, people roll on a PvE server specifically to avoid PvP at any time. Of those who choose to engage (even frequently) in PvP on a PvE server, they almost always choose a PvE server over a PvP one because they want to choose when and if they engage in PvP. They don't want the system or some other player making the choice for them. That being the case, why then should I have to be "aware" of your (or anyone else's) choice to enage in PvP when I have already declared my intention to not engage in PvP or to only engage in PvP when I want to by rolling on a PvE server? Why should I, on a PvE server where the vast majority of players will not be flagged the vast majority of time, have to verify the PvP flag status of every player I come across every time I want to do a beneficial action for that player? Your choice to engage in PvP is your choice just like it was your choice to roll on a PvE server to begin with. As such, it is your choice to accept the consequences and limitations of being flagged. Your choice to do so should not, in any way, be a decision for me to likewise accept those consequences. In other words, I should not have to be "aware" of your choice to become flagged. Your choice to become flagged should not be able to override my choice to never engage in PvP (or to do so only when I want to). Ideally, the system should have an option that you can set which will prevent you from inadvertently taking a PvP related action. The option should be set by default on a PvE server, and you can uncheck it if you want the system to work as is. It should be disabled on a PvP server and ignored when you are flagged for PvP (either manually or by entering a PvP zone or Warzone where you presence automatically declares your intention to PvP). If that is not added, then they should simply make it so that you have to manually flag on a PvE server to aid an ally or attack an enemy when either is flagged. The option to choose whether you can block autoflagging would be better, but there is simply no reason someone who rolled on a PvE server to avoid PvP should have to be "aware" of someone else's choice to PvP. The system should automatically prevent them from being involuntarily forced into PvP. The fact that it may add an extra step for those who want to engage in PvP is irrelevant. PvP is a choice on PvE servers. If you want to engage in it, then it is your responsibility to make the choices and take the actions necessary to do so. The onus of those choices should not be shifted to those who have not flagged and may not want to ever flag. ^This. No other post has summed it up better. I've been ganked twice so far during this event. I have no interest whatsoever in PVP unless *I* choose to do so. That's why I'm on a PVE server. Until this event I had no idea I could be forced into PVP like I have been this week. I've been happy as hell with this game, to the point that I purchased a 3 month sub after my first paid month was ending, and in all the time I've played I have NEVER PVP'ed, until ganked this week. If this isn't fixed, the end of the 3 month sub will be the end for me, period. No band-aids, no adjustments. Put in a toggle that can NOT be overridden. It's that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonDs Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 I enjoy this game a lot, and this is perhs the only reason I would ever unsub. For me being flagged against my will into pvp is unacceptable. Having to "stay aware" and not play the way I enjoy because some gankpredators ten levels above me are able to drag me into their griefers let's kill people who have no chance against us lifestyle is not my idea of fun. I am on a pve server....I don't want to provide hours of delight for the ganksters who enjoy preying on lower level charactors..... This was advertised as a story driven game...not a pvp gankfest. If I wanted to be entertainment for the grief bully's there are lots of FTP games I could play. For me fixing this issue is more important than any other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightsOn Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I enjoy this game a lot, and this is perhs the only reason I would ever unsub. For me being flagged against my will into pvp is unacceptable. Having to "stay aware" and not play the way I enjoy because some gankpredators ten levels above me are able to drag me into their griefers let's kill people who have no chance against us lifestyle is not my idea of fun. I am on a pve server....I don't want to provide hours of delight for the ganksters who enjoy preying on lower level charactors..... This was advertised as a story driven game...not a pvp gankfest. If I wanted to be entertainment for the grief bully's there are lots of FTP games I could play. For me fixing this issue is more important than any other. I almost bought the 3 month sub as I too was very very happy with the game as it was. But just as I was about to committ my $$ , The Rakghoul Plague World Event showed up and that ended THAT in a hurry. There are already active threads detailing "PVE-PVP-on-demand" and "PVE-Pure". I've already posted in other threads that inquiries as to the Future of PVE-Pure in SWTOR had no answer from customer service. So, I told them when they have an answer for PVE-Pure that skips Force PVP then I'll resub. In the mean time I stopped my subs to give the Devs time and incentive to consider a PVE-Pure server or an OPT OUT flag that MEANS OPT-OUT (and not opt out until someone else switches you to opt-in)> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajizan Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 This should not be an issue anymore, we were told to wait until patch 1.2 where it would be fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightsOn Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 This should not be an issue anymore, we were told to wait until patch 1.2 where it would be fixed. What is being fixed? a) The PVP-AOE-FLAG exploit? yes I think that's in the upcoming patch. b) The "server wide event forced PVP" mode with the PVP flag set to NO? I don't think they have said what they will do about that yet. If you know of an official post about fixing B) please link it as I would like to see what BW plans to do on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedipwnsauce Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 what do empire and republic do on PVE servers? have conversations? work together to fight mobs? sounds like a snoozefest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distracted Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 First up, I didn't read your post, I'm only responding to the title. Because it satisfying when you ambush someone that's PvP flagged & kill them before they realised what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueWookiee Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 what do empire and republic do on PVE servers? have conversations? work together to fight mobs? sounds like a snoozefest. What do Empire and Republic do on PvP servers? 8v 1 gankfests? Faceroll players 20+ levels lower then them? Sit around trying to create really clever names that try to involve "pwn" or "nub" or "sauce"? Come crying on the forums every time they lose claiming every other class is "OP" because losing in pvp is such srs bsns they can't handle dying? Sounds like an immature snoozefest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightsOn Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 First up, I didn't read your post, I'm only responding to the title. Because it satisfying when you ambush someone that's PvP flagged & kill them before they realised what happened. The PVE players in this situation have their PVP-FLAG set to OFF If you are ambushing them then you know how to force the flag on before the player can respond. I doubt you would even 1v1 them at their own level. Just another ghanker with no skills... No skill needed in taking out a L10 when you're L50. ymmv which is obviosly does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieAlteHexe Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 what do empire and republic do on PVE servers? have conversations? work together to fight mobs? sounds like a snoozefest. We quest, we do WZs, FPs, all the usual stuff. Might be a "snoozefest" to you but there are plenty of people who aren't looking to PvP. Shocking, I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieAlteHexe Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 First up, I didn't read your post, I'm only responding to the title. Because it satisfying when you ambush someone that's PvP flagged & kill them before they realised what happened. Which is just dandy on a PvP server where that is what people sign up for. Not so much on a PvE server where people did NOT sign up for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distracted Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 (edited) The PVE players in this situation have their PVP-FLAG set to OFF If you are ambushing them then you know how to force the flag on before the player can respond. I doubt you would even 1v1 them at their own level. Just another ghanker with no skills... No skill needed in taking out a L10 when you're L50. ymmv which is obviosly does. The situation is irrelevent, as is the players level compared to the ambusher. If someone is flagged, it's consent. If you're flagged by mistake or some other devious mechanic, it's still implied consent. I don't spend all my time trying to flag people so I can kill them. If I happen to see someone that is flagged, I wait for the opportune moment to attack. Ambushing them doesn't imply that one is forcing the flag on another. Edited April 30, 2012 by Distracted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieAlteHexe Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 The situation is irrelevent, as is the players level compared to the ambusher. If someone is flagged, it's consent. If you're flagged by mistake or some other devious mechanic, it's still implied consent. I don't spend all my time trying to flag people so I can kill them. If I happen to see someone that is flagged, I wait for the opportune moment to attack. Ambushing them doesn't imply that one is forcing the flag on another. Wait. I am not sure I understood the above highlighted text...are you contending that if someone gets flagged via a bug or exploit, it's consensual? Or..."implied consent"? If so, how on earth can that be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distracted Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Wait. I am not sure I understood the above highlighted text...are you contending that if someone gets flagged via a bug or exploit, it's consensual? Or..."implied consent"? If so, how on earth can that be? No, exploiting an unintended mechanic is outright cheating & doesn't fall under implied consent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieAlteHexe Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 No, exploiting an unintended mechanic is outright cheating & doesn't fall under implied consent. Quite so. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediElf Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Hi everyone. Thank you all for your patience and reports. We wanted to post in this thread to let you know that we have made this change with patch 1.1.4, which is now live on Public Test Server! You can read the patch notes here. o/''\o This is great news! Thank you so much AmberGreen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kourage Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Because the previous thread has exceeded our normal threshold for thread length, we've started this new thread for the community to discuss the topic of indirect targeting abilities flagging players for PvP. As always, we ask that the community keep the following things in mind when responding: No insults, name calling, or personal attacks Please stay on topic. Please express your opinion and thoughts in a constructive, respectful manner. If someone violates the Rules of Conduct, please flag it instead of replying to it. Keep in mind that everyone has different viewpoints. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're trolling. If you believe someone is trolling, please use the Flag function to report their post. Thank you and enjoy the discussion! Why don't you grab a dev and have him answer the question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kourage Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 This is great news! Thank you so much AmberGreen! Was great news 2.5 months ago. Not so much today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatherGrimm Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 No, exploiting an unintended mechanic is outright cheating & doesn't fall under implied consent. During & after the event, I tried to get a straight answer from Bioware -- did they really intend to just slip in non-consensual PvP flagging of players on PvE servers, with no warning? A few rodents on the forums said it was working as intended, so it must be ok. The PvE players who, justifiably, couldn't believe that Bioware would do that to them said it must be a bug. I sent this question to Bioware, since they were silent in response to all the forum posts on the issue: "I've never been given, nor seen on the forums, an answer to the question of whether or not the recent plague event's mechanism to involuntarily PvP flag players on PvE servers was intended by design, or not... If it's a bug, why was there no warning or apology? If it's working as intended, why no warning to PvE servers that players could be ganked during the event?" Surprise -- the rodents were right. I finally got this message from a CSR today: "We have investigated the error you reported, and have confirmed with our specialist team that in fact this is not a bug, and is working as designed." So, while it's always been a given that you couldn't trust the entire playerbase, it turns out you can't trust Bioware, too. The plague event was really worth sacrificing our trust, right? Thanks for the 30 days, but no, I won't be resubbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shama Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 During & after the event, I tried to get a straight answer from Bioware -- did they really intend to just slip in non-consensual PvP flagging of players on PvE servers, with no warning? ... snip... I finally got this message from a CSR today: "We have investigated the error you reported, and have confirmed with our specialist team that in fact this is not a bug, and is working as designed." So, while it's always been a given that you couldn't trust the entire playerbase, it turns out you can't trust Bioware, too. The plague event was really worth sacrificing our trust, right? Thanks for the 30 days, but no, I won't be resubbing. It is pretty staggering really how unaware BW seem to be about the whole PvP and PvE thing, and that for a lot of PvEers "No means NO". They seem to think (and act like) they can just allow people to be flagged against their will and it will all be ok ... as if the game is somehow fundamentally a PvP game and those that don't want to PvP are deluded and just need to be exposed more to realise the error of their ways. "Just slip them into PvP and they'll become hooked and realise it is for their benefit" Amazing really that they seem to keep falling for the same problem. They must have a very strong advocate of PvP on the team who just doesn't understand the PvE viewpoint. At all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calsetes Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 what do empire and republic do on PVE servers? have conversations? work together to fight mobs? sounds like a snoozefest. I help Imperial people fight mobs if they're low on health, salute them before running off, etc. Hell, once I had to ride the balloon on Tatooine for those two datacrons, and the only other person there was a Sith Juggernaut (or a Marauder, I forget which.) We talked, we danced, we had fun. We got over there, they missed the jump to the second datacron. I challenged them to a duel, harpooned them up to where I was, then ran off until I was out of duel range. They probably don't remember my character name or Legacy name, but who cares - I prevented them from having to endure that long-*** trip a second time, and coming from someone who already had to do that with a character because of that second datacron, I like to think I helped. Besides, who says there can't be reasonable fighters on both sides of the galactic divide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SapientSix Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 "We have investigated the error you reported, and have confirmed with our specialist team that in fact this is not a bug, and is working as designed." That is very disappointing. Should it become a trend in their event design then my subscription is going to have a short lifespan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocBones Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Have there been any updates? Just got my first toon to Black Hole and Illum and I keep getting flagged for some reason. (and no, its not because I am going into a pvp zone) Edited July 23, 2012 by DocBones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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