Jedi Guardian: A Statement

[lstemoo]

and well hm ev can take longer if soa gives us trouble.....phase two is a pain now since they nerfed the lightning balls he shoots to appear more often

[Helig]

Riiiightttt....

 

Sorry, but if you're going to make statements that aren't true, you really need to work on making things believable.

 

The end of the 2nd chapter for Jedi Knight was so bad that Bioware actually stepped in on that quest and nerfed it big time.

 

I think the nerfed the end of chapter 3 too.

 

 

The only way I can see your char having been able to make it through end of chapter 2 without help was if you were a lvl 50 at the time.

 

Seriously, a level 50 sage was having problems helping me on the quest and his companion char (whom had gear up to date I might add). If it was really as soloable as you are claiming, they would have breezed right through it, and then having a commando with us...

 

So excuse me if my experience with this class, indicates that you're probably not being honest with us. Short of the mission bugging up and nothing attack you, there would have been no way for a Guardian to complete that mission.

 

Saying you soloed a hero mission at the level it was supposed to be ran at is actually more believable, cause you can do that with the Tython Hero missions.

 

You do know that if you get into your solo instance with a group, it gets tougher, right? My Sentinel guildie said that on Doomsday, he went with a buddy. There was Champion trash or somesuch.

 

Solo, pre-nerf, I encountered packs with 2 Strongs maximum, and an occasional Elite.

 

What end of chapter 2 are you talking about? Fortress? Were you talking about Darth Angral instead? Because it was the toughest fight that I experienced in the Knight story - I was 2 levels below, and I wiped twice on his melee lieutenant (because I underestimated him badly), and twice on him - was one of the few fights that I felt like I really needed Call upon the Force.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Helig

[MimicUnleashed]

You do know that if you get into your solo instance with a group, it gets tougher, right? My Sentinel guildie said that on Doomsday, he went with a buddy. There was Champion trash or somesuch.

 

Solo, pre-nerf, I encountered packs with 2 Strongs maximum, and an occasional Elite.

 

What end of chapter 2 are you talking about? Fortress? Were you talking about Darth Angral instead? Because it was the toughest fight that I experienced in the Knight story - I was 2 levels below, and I wiped twice on his melee lieutenant (because I underestimated him badly), and twice on him - was one of the few fights that I felt like I really needed Call upon the Force.

 

Valis: Tried him until I ran out of cash to repair at 23. Could not beat him until I leveled to 25.

Praven: Tried him and had to come back when I was 2 levels higher than him.

Sand Demon: Called for help. The Commando healer and his droid basically soloed it. I was window dressing.

Angral: Got killed 6-7 times no matter how much I worked to keep him from beating me senseless. Gave up and called in my friend again. He killed him inside a minute.

Marauders (Act 2): Called in a Gunslinger after dying end even respeccing to Tank to try and kill them. Gunslinger killed them without cooldowns.

 

Post-Doc I was fine for the most part, but still frustrated. Especially Voss. But I made it. However I loved the story of Act 1, but I loathed the gameplay in a way I cannot begin to describe. When I started rolling Alts I never once had any story boss issues nearly as grueling as this. Bounty Hunter, Trooper, Consular, Sith Warrior... none of them were this frustrating. The perfect example is that when Knights fight Valis, the Warrior fights soldiers. Several silvers. But they have kolto tanks they can hit for heals mid-fight. And a healing companion already.

 

Sorry to those who have micro-managed their Knight experience or those who are truly a tank while leveling (easiest way). However if you don't want to level as a tank then Act 1 is shamefully hard, and nerfing the class quests are not the extent of the issue. Mechanics for the DPS side of Guardian needs to be reviewed to more gently scale rather than huge pay outs from 30-40 being the bread and butter.

[Helig]

Sorry to those who have micro-managed their Knight experience or those who are truly a tank while leveling (easiest way). However if you don't want to level as a tank then Act 1 is shamefully hard, and nerfing the class quests are not the extent of the issue. Mechanics for the DPS side of Guardian needs to be reviewed to more gently scale rather than huge pay outs from 30-40 being the bread and butter.

 

Wipes are the spice of MMO life. I wiped. A lot, on some encounters. But in the end, I destroyed them with no outside help.

 

Tank isn't much easier. Marginally more mitigation, considerably less Focus generated (ergo, damage done). It only becomes good past 30-ish. But that's the time Vigilance also becomes good.

 

 

That said, I do agree that the class needs a smoother power progression. It starts showing potential past 30, but fully blooms only at 50. Easy adjustments: Push moved to level 12, Stasis moved to level 18, OH-slash made 20-something baseline (31Defense removed or reworked), or basic Slash needs to do at least 20% more damage with single lightsaber. Cyclonic Slash is a basic thing that needs to be available from early 20s (with a 20-ish% damage increase), Awe moved to 30-something. Vigilance could use some rudimentary self-healing a la Annihilation\Watchman. Defense shields need to proc from more abilities (even if it means they'd be weakened).

Edited February 19, 2012 by Helig

[Siorac]

While I agree the JK quest is the hardest of all, I think the others need a boost in difficulty, not the JK has to be nerfed. Sith Warrior, up until the end of Act I (I'm at level 34 atm), is faceroll easy (though I wiped on those silvers mentioned above once, purely out of my own stupidity though ) and never encountered a challenge on my level 25 Gunslinger either.

[Darkssvegita]

Here is the thing, the devs have acknowledged that the vigilance tree is sup par in defense, however what I want to know is if they still plan to do anything about it. I want to know from the devs if the changes to enure and force push was ALL they thought the guardians needed (which imo is a joke if so) or if there are more changes on the way. I don't need an ETA I just want to know if the devs think they are fine and L2P or they know we are struggling (I know I am) and are working on changes. Edited February 19, 2012 by Darkssvegita

[Helig]

Here is the thing, the devs have acknowledged that the vigilance tree is sup par in defense, however what I want to know is if they still plan to do anything about it. I want to know from the devs if the changes to enure and force push was ALL they thought the guardians needed (which imo is a joke if so) or if there are more changes on the way. I don't need an ETA I just want to know if the devs think they are fine and L2P or they know we are struggling (I know I am) and are working on changes.

 

BW did say that there will be significant balance changes in 1.2. There were also prior hints of Guardian survivability improvements around 1.2. They say it comes around March, so we don't have that long to wait.

[wargonglok]

bouyt the keeping up guard:

 

vanguard tank: high aoe threat, easily keeps up aggro, many times they bite off more than they can chew

 

Shadow tank:inbetween vanguard and jedi knight

 

Guardion tank: high single target aggro, highest sruvivability, against bosses like the ones in karagga's and eternity vault probably best for tanking big bosses.

 

There yu have itvanguards tank all the incoming trash, guardians the uber bosses, and shadows can do both, but with a million more buttons

[Drakks]

This whole thread can be summed up in a simple statement: "In WoW I could headbutt my keyboard and had purple gear!1!!:"

 

It's sad that WoW single handedly killed creativity within an entire playerbase, and taught them that if they, a single player that is obviously the greatest gamer in MMO history, can't figure out how to do something then obviously the game is broken -- not their approach, or playstyle, but literally the game.

 

I leveled my guardian to 50 without an issue.. and it had ups and downs, I beat all the class quests solo, prior to "fixes". When I died, I changed what I did till I didn't die. I'm not the greatest player on the planet either, because I wouldn't have even known to pat myself on the back unless I read threads like these. Get this: I actually enjoyed the fact that leveling was somewhat challenging at times -- I thought it was by design. I'm also coming up on 65 valor, and I've even enjoyed pvp.. and, after about pve level 20, have never felt like I wasn't competitive.

 

There is ONE real problem with guardians -- and it's the mid and high level shield tree. It's got more CC than tanking abilites. Vig damage seems fine in pve, Focus damage is potentially OP is pvp.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Drakks

[GarfieldJL]

I actually called in a friend for the end of act 1.

 

The level glitched and had to start from scratch, the friend was a commando whom was 3 lvls lower than me.

 

 

He and his companion were slaughtering everyone, it was almost like he was just at a shooting range competition with the enemies being the targets.

[lstemoo]

vanguard tank: high aoe threat, easily keeps up aggro, many times they bite off more than they can chew

 

Shadow tank:inbetween vanguard and jedi knight

 

Guardion tank: high single target aggro, highest sruvivability, against bosses like the ones in karagga's and eternity vault probably best for tanking big bosses.

 

/agree perfectly stated

 

 

 

and on the storyline difficulty aspect i have never rolled dps so i cant comment on it ;however, on the guardian dps in general when in raids we occasionally have three knights in raid depending on who shows up me(tank) and another guardian dps and sentinal and on the few occasions when i do lose threat for a split second its ALWAYS to either the guardian dps or a commando dps ......and on my statements about the difficulty tank wise i do micro manage ocd about my toons so thats prob why i have had zero problems with my guardian tank

[lstemoo]

While I agree the JK quest is the hardest of all, I think the others need a boost in difficulty, not the JK has to be nerfed. Sith Warrior, up until the end of Act I (I'm at level 34 atm), is faceroll easy (though I wiped on those silvers mentioned above once, purely out of my own stupidity though ) and never encountered a challenge on my level 25 Gunslinger either.

 

/agree with this as well

[GarfieldJL]

/agree perfectly stated

 

 

 

and on the storyline difficulty aspect i have never rolled dps so i cant comment on it ;however, on the guardian dps in general when in raids we occasionally have three knights in raid depending on who shows up me(tank) and another guardian dps and sentinal and on the few occasions when i do lose threat for a split second its ALWAYS to either the guardian dps or a commando dps ......and on my statements about the difficulty tank wise i do micro manage ocd about my toons so thats prob why i have had zero problems with my guardian tank

 

Uh, any other class would have a field day in our class quests.

 

Get a commando on Angrel's ship for example and it's like they are taking a trip to a shooting range (I'm talking like a lvl 28 commando).

 

They can solo that entire place easily.

[Ceasaigh]

Oh for FFS, Guardian is BROKEN!!

 

I've played tank in my last 3 mmos and guardian is the worst I've ever played. Can't tank without uber gear and heals. In order to get said uber gear you must run hard modes. In order to run hard modes you must have uber gear. Can't use crafted gear, for one its 'okay' but the time and effort required to get it is not worth the quality of the gear on the other end. AND DAILIES! love those, repeat the same task every day for a small reward in hopes that someday things will get better, they have a word for that, its called A JOB. And since I am paying BW and not the other way around .... And the kicker to all this? Wipe more than 3 times during a lvl 50 pve run to get gear? Count on a 50-100k repair bill. And people ask me why I still drive the noob speeder.

 

Forget about pvp, roll a consular. I'd like for the devs to explain to me how I'm supposed to get a spazzed out teenager hopped up on candy bars and jolt cola to stand still so I can hit them with the 'master strike'. or the Uber sexy taunt that makes enemy players glow red and and reduces their damage ooo why not turn the lightsaber into a feezepop and I can fling molted koolaid at them. I like how in the movies qui-gon can cut through a 4 foot metal door with his saber but if I go out into the battle field and hit someone wearing cloth it says "absorbed"

 

I've rolled other toons, hoping that some day the force will re align itself and guardian will no longer suck.

 

I LOL'd

[Agilard]

hmm i never had issue with pve for my sith jugg, and the companion i use is jaesa willsaam, i despise quinn so i through him off my ship lol. its, alot diff compared to other class though depending on what build u are. i was a sith jugg rage build and tech, i loved aoeing the **** out of things, while jaesa casted some dark lightning lol.

[mozzlol]

There's nothing wrong with the class (in terms of leveling difficulty), honestly.

 

If I managed to get to 50 as a vigilance guardian without using stims, medpacks, or even Doc (I used mainly kira/scourge, even on almost all bossfights, and all my comps were pretty ****-geared too), then I'm 100% certain you can do the same.

 

If you can't, then use stims, medpacks and Doc.

Edited February 20, 2012 by mozzlol

[KaelShien]

Uh, any other class would have a field day in our class quests.

 

Get a commando on Angrel's ship for example and it's like they are taking a trip to a shooting range (I'm talking like a lvl 28 commando).

 

They can solo that entire place easily.

 

You haven't considered the fact that the JK's story enemies are made to be challenging for a melee fighter, not a guy with a huge cannon? Of course a ranged character has no trouble with enemies that are optimized for a melee character, that's plain logic.

 

Yes, Guardian is the worst designed class and deserves some serious attention, but they're definitely still on a competetive level. Make an effort instead of going "I can't kill this dude on my 1st try, f*ck this!" and rage quitting. Maybe you're just not worthy of being a Guardian.

[Ethias]

I don't know if we're the worst designed class ( I think Scoundrel/Operatives have far more issues than us), but I personally think we're a pretty good class overall in need of a few minor adjustments (perhaps more than that for Defense). We need some small tweaks, but they may need to come with some reduction in the burst of Focus if they buff that tree, as right now guardians are totally fine as Focus (in PvP anyway), Vig is overall fine (maybe some tweaks, but not huge ones ori t'd become too strong), and Defense needs some work.

[Thaerakiel]

The guardian is worthless and broken. I stopped at lv30, rolled a shadow and didn't look back. It could handle anything, you don't have to rest after every mob and when you get your healer it's just silly. Good damage, great defense and uses the force more than the guardian. Feels more like a Jedi and the guardian ever did. If you don't mind the crap looking gear, it's the way to go. My Shadow is lv50 now currently working on my lv10 Vanguard.

[Antagonist_]

Ok I have a lvl 50 Mercenary, rolled a Guardian alt currently lvl 28, sofar ive found none of the class quest bosses hard at all, done all of it up to Alderan ( working on it )

 

Yes I have Biochem, all the reusables lvl 24, I use Kira, geared her up decently with 20-24 pvp gear.

 

I am full Vig sofar and managed to tank FPs just fine, in pvp I score 7-9 medals mostly.

 

Compared to Merc at that lvl Guardians over perform in pvp basicly and in Pve its less of a walk in the park, but NOT hard.

 

Imo in all MMO:s ive played melee is harder, but when properly geared full of potential.

 

and yes just lvl 28, but sofar a pleasant experience.

[tobarstep]

I really can't understand the idea that Guardian is weak or tough to handle at any level. I finished ch 1 on my guardian with no deaths at all during the "boss" fights, and that was Vig spec using Kira as my companion. Learn to use your cooldowns. Make sure that 20 min cooldown is available before trying the story "boss". Use medpacks. Even on my Vanguard with Elara healing I still made liberal use of my defensive cooldowns. It's just good playing.

 

I think a lot of difficulty that people have - with any class - has to do with companion management. I've watched Sages/Sorcerers that do nothing but run into packs of mobs and start the pull themselves, then let their tank pull the mobs off. What? You have a Companion Attack button. Use it. So for Knights, send Kira in first, let her take some damage and deal some damage, then enter the fray yourself and taunt off Kira as needed.

Edited February 20, 2012 by tobarstep

[MimicUnleashed]

I think any level 50 can tell you that Knights/Juggs scale REALLY well with gear. And by that I mean absurdly well. So while I'd like to say that we don't have the tools we need... we just have too many and we're using pieces here and there we should be able to streamline a little. That with some minor base-damage buffing, maybe a light self healing ability (shadow-tank kinds) and we'd be more than up to the challenge and able to level without stressing ourselves out.

[damolawler]

Some of you people seem to think that you should be completing the entire game without dying once, and if you can't then it's because the class is broken.

 

I think the Guardian is quite weak at lower levels, levels 10-30 or so. I'll never forget the first Essles run I did with my guardian. It was astonishing how much quicker and easier other clases in my group killed stuff.

 

However, although levels 10-30 can be rough at times, after that I think Guardians are just fine. Just be a few levels above content and you'll be ok. i personally haven't had any trouble with class bosses. Valis killed me once, Angral and the others went down easily.

 

I am at level 43 now.

Edited February 20, 2012 by damolawler

[MimicUnleashed]

Some of you people seem to think that you should be completing the entire game without dying once, and if you can't then it's because the class is broken.

 

I think the Guardian is quite weak at lower levels, levels 10-30 or so. I'll never forget the first Essles run I did with my guardian. It was astonishing how much quicker and easier other clases in my group killed stuff.

 

However, although levels 10-30 can be rough at times, after that I think Guardians are just fine. Just be a few levels above content and you'll be ok. i personally haven't had any trouble with class bosses. Valis killed me once, Angral and the others went down easily.

 

I am at level 43 now.

 

That is some of my issue. Dying is ok, it happens. Getting mopped around the floor repeatedly isn't ok. And some of that is due to the very late bloom the Guardians start to do. By 30 most classes are shoring up the last loose ends on their damage, tanking or healing route. By then the Guardian (and to a degree Sentinels as well) are just starting to get that feeling that they're actually specced into an AC. Eliminating that feeling would probably fix the issues. And over-leveling (so says Bioware) is not an intended way of surpassing it. You're suppose to be able to do it at-level.

[Thaerakiel]

Some of these guys don't seem to have a problem with the Guardian either almost dying or dying after every boss and pretty much 3/4 of you health bar or more gone after normal mobs or living off of health packs and resting between every single mob... I did.

I guess that's normal for a tanker for those guys.

 

The Shadow and Vanguard both get the healer early in the game the Guardian has to wait for more than half the game to even feel viable as a tanker at lv36 on Balmorra.

 

I see these guys talking about how they have no problems at all with the Guardian. I leveled mine to 30 then rolled a Shadow, I have to tell you the Shadow DOES NOT HAVE THESE PROBLEMS. I went through it for 30 levels and I see every other Guardian go through it every day and somehow these guys play it better than everyone else...right. My shadow is 50 and can tank anything with little health lost and if you're talking about tanking big bosses then you'll have a healer anyways so it's moot. Yeah, all classes die at some point that's common sense, that shouldn't even be under discussion.

 

Some are also saying they are made for different types of threat, AOE, single target and a mixture of both... Okay so? They specialize in different types of threat. They should not have defense problems like this, they are all still tankers. It doesn't mean anyone would take a Guardian over a Shadow or a Vanguard they all need a healer during big boss fights anyways, doesn't matter. My Vanguard is lv20 now and will have his healer tonight at the end of Taris but even with the companion I have now there's little time/health lost between mobs.

 

What the Guardian needs is a defense buff to bring it online with the other two or give it the healer early in the game. Hell, make Kira a Sage, it would take longer to kill stuff but you'd be alive and not struggling.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Thaerakiel