Perspective for those who want it NAO!

[Dirtybomb]

The "community" has asked for instant map travel and swapping advanced classes at will... where then do we draw the line?

 

Give it to them. What do you care if people can instantly travel to any point they choose? If you prefer the long ride thru the country side, you can still do it that way. How will it hurt you if you take the long road and I port there? If it meant avoiding the all the pointless time sink stuff like the stations, I'd actually look forward to this.

 

Swapping advanced classes? I know just as well as you what that will lead to, but it won't hurt me, so who am I to say no? And I think we can be realistic about the fact that it will be a paid service at some point anyway. Faction changes, server transfers, all of it.

[Lethality]

Give it to them. What do you care if people can instantly travel to any point they choose? If you prefer the long ride thru the country side, you can still do it that way. How will it hurt you if you take the long road and I port there? If it meant avoiding the all the pointless time sink stuff like the stations, I'd actually look forward to this.

 

Swapping advanced classes? I know just as well as you what that will lead to, but it won't hurt me, so who am I to say no? And I think we can be realistic about the fact that it will be a paid service at some point anyway. Faction changes, server transfers, all of it.

 

Nope, doesn't work that way. You need to have sight of the big picture.

 

Certain "features" would undermine the design intent of the game... in the case of map travel, the world itself would be trivialized and in fact not even need to exist.

 

If you want to play the game, play within the constructs set forth by it... do not demand "easier" "faster" or "simpler" - developers that pander to that attitude are digging their own grave.

 

Your response is the very epitome of the "gimme gamer" that the OP is talking about.

[Gerrard_Ennui]

The point was more along the lines of just wait a bit.

They want our money 'nao' then they deliver content 'nao'. Seems fair and honest.

 

You cannot compare what a 2012 game doesn't have to what a 2004 game didn't have (and subsequently invented). The 2012 game has to step out of the gate as competitive to their CURRENT competition, not that of 7 years ago.

I agree. It's irksome that this still needs to be explained to people. It's common sense in EVERY OTHER market, between each competing product - until you step in here.

 

The "community" has asked for instant map travel and swapping advanced classes at will... where then do we draw the line?

Why does a 'line' need to be drawn? Let people have fun the way they want for their money.

[DigitalDreamz]

Granted, but I'd be more than willing to bet that people still complained about stuff that Rift did NOT launch with.

 

The point was more along the lines of just wait a bit.

 

I think we get the point with your posts and that's to just apologize Biowares terrible job.

[Emeda]

Give it to them. What do you care if people can instantly travel to any point they choose? If you prefer the long ride thru the country side, you can still do it that way. How will it hurt you if you take the long road and I port there? If it meant avoiding the all the pointless time sink stuff like the stations, I'd actually look forward to this.

 

Swapping advanced classes? I know just as well as you what that will lead to, but it won't hurt me, so who am I to say no? And I think we can be realistic about the fact that it will be a paid service at some point anyway. Faction changes, server transfers, all of it.

 

Sure we can give it to them. So why cant we have some content that is really hard. IF the people dont want to try then hey they dont have to do it. Also why cant we get something meaningful because we do something hard.

 

Your trying to act like your caring for everyone and you dont actually want the stuff for yourself when the fact is you do.

[Lethality]

Why does a 'line' need to be drawn? Let people have fun the way they want for their money.

 

Well in that case, I guess we should put rocket launchers in Madden and cupcake progression in Halo.

 

If they want a different kind of entertainment than the game provides, there are different kinds of games. That's why.

[Dirtybomb]

Nope, doesn't work that way. You need to have sight of the big picture.

 

Certain "features" would undermine the design intent of the game... in the case of map travel, the world itself would be trivialized and in fact not even need to exist.

 

If you want to play the game, play within the constructs set forth by it... do not demand "easier" "faster" or "simpler" - developers that pander to that attitude are digging their own grave.

 

Your response is the very epitome of the "gimme gamer" that the OP is talking about.

 

Lol! You're absolutely wrong about the gimme gamer statement. See, at the end of the day, I don't really care. If I like a game, I play it. If I don't, I move on to one I like. If the dev asks me why I quit, I'll tell them. But I won't throw a tantrum on the forums about the lack of features or whatever I was unhappy about.

 

I come to these forums when I'm bored at work and jump in to threads I find interesting. The most interesting threads I find are the ones where one person says "I'd like xxx function" and another person says "No, you shouldn't have that because I don't like it". That's a ridiculous argument, and often an attempt to protect some sense that their own private idaho they've built will come crashing down.

 

The people that want the instant travel have already deemed the worlds as trivial and a waste of their time. They don't really care what it looks like and they're tired of running thru it. Why make them look at it? Give them the instant travel. Like I said, you can still take the long road if you want. If the devs figure out that most people are using the instant travel and spend less time on the scenery, then the long-road folks are in the minority. Sorry for ya.

 

The people that want LFG? They've already decided that they don't want to be social. So why make them? To make the game more fun for those that want to chit chat? Please.

 

Personally, I don't necessarily like easier, faster, simpler. But making me run thru the space docks isn't enhancing my game play. It is a ridiculously transparent ploy to drag out the process of getting from A to B. No scenery, no mobs to deal with, no puzzles to solve. I think there should be one difficulty: "kick you in the face" hard.

 

I'm not arguing in favor of LFG because I want it. I'll never use it. But I won't let somebody sit there and tell people they shouldn't have it because nobody will bother talking to them any more or it will break their immersion.

 

And keep in mind that the primary design intent of this game is to make money. Yep, money first, your sense of immersion second. Because most people don't really care about immersion. A light saber and a robe is about all most people need to make it feel like star wars.

 

Building a wall around what you think MMOs should be to defend it against what most players want them to be is futile. The average MMO gamer is not the same as he/she was 5-10 years ago. Get used to it.

[Astron_]

Please for the love of all that is holy, not another one of these no-brain threads....

[Halacs]

Lol! You're absolutely wrong about the gimme gamer statement. See, at the end of the day, I don't really care. If I like a game, I play it. If I don't, I move on to one I like. If the dev asks me why I quit, I'll tell them. But I won't throw a tantrum on the forums about the lack of features or whatever I was unhappy about.

 

I come to these forums when I'm bored at work and jump in to threads I find interesting. The most interesting threads I find are the ones where one person says "I'd like xxx function" and another person says "No, you shouldn't have that because I don't like it". That's a ridiculous argument, and often an attempt to protect some sense that their own private idaho they've built will come crashing down.

 

The people that want the instant travel have already deemed the worlds as trivial and a waste of their time. They don't really care what it looks like and they're tired of running thru it. Why make them look at it? Give them the instant travel. Like I said, you can still take the long road if you want. If the devs figure out that most people are using the instant travel and spend less time on the scenery, then the long-road folks are in the minority. Sorry for ya.

 

The people that want LFG? They've already decided that they don't want to be social. So why make them? To make the game more fun for those that want to chit chat? Please.

 

Personally, I don't necessarily like easier, faster, simpler. But making me run thru the space docks isn't enhancing my game play. It is a ridiculously transparent ploy to drag out the process of getting from A to B. No scenery, no mobs to deal with, no puzzles to solve. I think there should be one difficulty: "kick you in the face" hard.

 

I'm not arguing in favor of LFG because I want it. I'll never use it. But I won't let somebody sit there and tell people they shouldn't have it because nobody will bother talking to them any more or it will break their immersion.

 

And keep in mind that the primary design intent of this game is to make money. Yep, money first, your sense of immersion second. Because most people don't really care about immersion. A light saber and a robe is about all most people need to make it feel like star wars.

 

Building a wall around what you think MMOs should be to defend it against what most players want them to be is futile. The average MMO gamer is not the same as he/she was 5-10 years ago. Get used to it.

 

I think...... I <3 you.

[Ookami_Nikurasu]

No, sorry. Games in development have all had the benefit of watching what WoW was doing, and had the full opportunity to lift it pixel for pixel. They knew what players were doing... it was the best user research in the world.

 

You cannot compare what a 2012 game doesn't have to what a 2004 game didn't have (and subsequently invented). The 2012 game has to step out of the gate as competitive to their CURRENT competition, not that of 7 years ago.

 

You can't compare the two games, it's that simple.

 

Not TOR with "vanilla" WoW, nor TOR with Cata WoW.

 

Reason: Expansions, Blizzard have been developing on WoW for 7 years since release.

TOR have had 2 months since release, so the game thats best for comparison is Rift since it released last year.

[Dillingor]

No, sorry. Games in development have all had the benefit of watching what WoW was doing, and had the full opportunity to lift it pixel for pixel. They knew what players were doing... it was the best user research in the world.

 

You cannot compare what a 2012 game doesn't have to what a 2004 game didn't have (and subsequently invented). The 2012 game has to step out of the gate as competitive to their CURRENT competition, not that of 7 years ago.

 

 

Ugh. This is such a moot argument. IT doesn't MATTER. You can watch NFL for 4 years but you're not going to be a star quarterback just from watching.

 

Both games had 5 years of development, and added appropriate amounts of content and features to reflect that. Some things differ, as they made different choices, but the fact that WoW came out in 2005 or whatever doesn't matter.

 

 

Because WoW came out with all these features post launch, doesn't mean it takes any other company any less time to add that content into their game. Be logical here. Programming takes time.

 

Let me give you an analogy.

 

 

Somebody puts together a 10,000 piece puzzle, and you watch them put it together, takes them say, 5 years to do it.

 

 

You decide to do your own 10,000 piece puzzle, feeling confident that you can do it. Why should it take you any less time than them? While you're putting yours together they add a bunch of pieces to theirs too. Should you also be expected to have those added pieces on yours, in the same amount of time it took them to finish the 10,000 piece one?

 

No.

 

 

Shut up with that argument.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Dillingor

[Archonyx]

Since you want to do the comparison of fetures thing lets do it with a MMO that has come out a tad close to TOR...

 

RIFT launched with

multi spec

full custom UI

LFG was implimented 2-3 months after launch

Ability to change color of gear

Appearance tab

New raid content every 6 weeks and much more

 

I am not one of the "want it now" and I like TOR and plan to be here for a while but your comparison was kinda silly.

 

Yeah but this is like saying

 

"I got a fully loaded nissan sentra with rims, custom speakers and tires" versus a "I got a mercedes without any customizations"

 

 

I would still take the mercedes bro. Yeah it's overpriced and hard to fix but at least it's not a nissan....I've had a nissan.

[Percy]

Champions online, Star trek, DC universe all games i was excited about all games everybody said just wait just wait. There is no reason to wait there are other games to play. When they are not even saying that they are working on these things then you just have to decide if you having fun if not don't waste your time waiting.

 

A flashpoint finder wasn't something they just couldn't get in on time it was something they actively chose not to put into the game. Them making the choice to not put one in the game automatically makes me think that i may not agree with the development direction.

 

That being said there is no reason to just wait or plead for features as soon as im not having fun I will play a mmo where i agree more with the developers. They can make the game however they want.

[Lethality]

The people that want LFG? They've already decided that they don't want to be social. So why make them? To make the game more fun for those that want to chit chat? Please.

 

Because it's better for the game if they aren't here at all.

 

The publisher might like their subscription money, but if they aren't contributing to the game in the way it was intended, then the overall experience for the players that DO play and enjoy it as intended is diminished.

 

 

I'm not arguing in favor of LFG because I want it. I'll never use it. But I won't let somebody sit there and tell people they shouldn't have it because nobody will bother talking to them any more or it will break their immersion.

 

The line has to be drawn... if the game is designed well, water will find it's own level. If there are problem areas, like the mindless running from your ship through a spaceport to the middle of nowhere, then it starts to spill over and reactionary developers will start making changes hastily... resulting in a weakened game.

 

 

 

Building a wall around what you think MMOs should be to defend it against what most players want them to be is futile. The average MMO gamer is not the same as he/she was 5-10 years ago. Get used to it.

 

Then perhaps they should stop making limp copies of games 5-10 years ago. Delivering all of the misery but with none of the pleasure.

[Emeda]

Somebody puts together a 10,000 piece puzzle, and you watch them put it together, takes them say, 5 years to do it.

 

 

You decide to do your own 10,000 piece puzzle, feeling confident that you can do it. Why should it take you any less time than them? While you're putting yours together they add a bunch of pieces to theirs too. Should you also be expected to have those added pieces on yours, in the same amount of time it took them to finish the 10,000 piece one?

 

No.

 

Shut up with that argument.

 

Your puzzle was fail.

[Azzras]

Your puzzle was fail.

 

I thought it was actually a good analogy.

 

Just my 2 credits.

[Lethality]

You can't compare the two games, it's that simple.

 

Not TOR with "vanilla" WoW, nor TOR with Cata WoW.

 

Reason: Expansions, Blizzard have been developing on WoW for 7 years since release.

TOR have had 2 months since release, so the game thats best for comparison is Rift since it released last year.

 

This is absolute crazy nonsense.

 

Name ONE other product or service that would come out in 2012 that you would be ok with being "just like the competitor was in 2004". Can you name even ONE?

 

You can't, because it's insane. If a new product comes out in 2012, you expect it to compete on the same level with a competitive set of features as the competitors are TODAY.

 

The underlying problem with this is the expectations for TOR. They were very high:

 

1) BioWare

2) Star Wars

3) Big budget

 

You don't think that with those 3 aces up their sleeve, they shouldn't have come out of the gate with more of the basics covered?

 

I can understand bugs and content, that is to be expected to take time to work out and deliver. But the dearth of standard features is what completely took my by surprise, and I think most people.

 

We now are in the position of having to wait years for it to catch up on the basics, meanwhile the competition isn't sitting still and is STILL moving forward. i.e. it's a never catch-up scenario.

 

That's the issue.

[Melkathi]

I keep reading posts about stuff people want that should have went in at launch, then saying WoW's got it...why cant we?

 

Here's some perspective:

 

LFG tool - WoW did not add this feature in until the end of 2006, two years after release.

 

Dual Talents - WoW did not add this feature in until mid 2009, five years after release.

 

And many other similar features.

 

As a playerbase, a lot of people are trying to whine and beg for a 7 year old release bemoth to already exist for a 2 month old release infant. Bioware has already said that they're working on developing most of the stuff we want.

 

To end this little foray into reality vs. fantasy and wishful thinking, here's the word of the day:

 

pa·tience

   [pey-shuhns]

noun

1.

the quality of being patient, as the bearing of provocation, annoyance, misfortune, or pain, without complaint, loss of temper, irritation, or the like.

2.

an ability or willingness to suppress restlessness or annoyance when confronted with delay

 

 

Meh.

 

Graphics - old games were text based. I think people should not ask for DirectX-whatevernumber at release. They should be happy with EGA graphics. Many games released without even EGA.

 

I'd copy paste a definition for "progress" and "evolution" from an online dictionary, but the OP knows how to look up words by himself.

We do not create things in a vacuum. If previous titles have offered features, then we have to consider offering them as well. If we do not, then we will have to assess the importance of the features we are omitting and, if necessary, give our customers a clear view of when they can expect these. If we do not do that, then the question will be raised whether we are not aware of what the competition has been offering since before our product appeared on the market. If we were not aware, are we truly capable of providing quality service?

[Lethality]

Because WoW came out with all these features post launch, doesn't mean it takes any other company any less time to add that content into their game. Be logical here. Programming takes time.

 

Let me give you an analogy.

 

 

Somebody puts together a 10,000 piece puzzle, and you watch them put it together, takes them say, 5 years to do it.

 

 

You decide to do your own 10,000 piece puzzle, feeling confident that you can do it. Why should it take you any less time than them? While you're putting yours together they add a bunch of pieces to theirs too. Should you also be expected to have those added pieces on yours, in the same amount of time it took them to finish the 10,000 piece one?

 

No.

 

 

Shut up with that argument.

 

For the love of all that is holy.

 

Developers of EVERY GAME since WoW have had the benefit of watching Blizzard make mistakes and have successes. If they were paying attention, and god help them if they weren't, they knew EXACTLY what features worked and what players wanted... WoW did all of the user research for them.

 

And YES. Although the puzzle analogy is stupid, if I wanted people to admire my puzzle in a puzzle gallery right next to the other one, then YES I should be expected to have those extra pieces in place! I am the competitor, it's up to me to kick it up a notch and COMPETE.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Lethality

[Halacs]

Yeah but this is like saying

 

"I got a fully loaded nissan sentra with rims, custom speakers and tires" versus a "I got a mercedes without any customizations"

 

 

I would still take the mercedes bro. Yeah it's overpriced and hard to fix but at least it's not a nissan....I've had a nissan.

 

No it's not.

 

He was comparing one MMO release to another. I used a more relivent MMO.

[Ookami_Nikurasu]

This is absolute crazy nonsense.

 

Name ONE other product or service that would come out in 2012 that you would be ok with being "just like the competitor was in 2004". Can you name even ONE?

 

You can't, because it's insane. If a new product comes out in 2012, you expect it to compete on the same level with a competitive set of features as the competitors are TODAY.

 

The underlying problem with this is the expectations for TOR. They were very high:

 

1) BioWare

2) Star Wars

3) Big budget

 

You don't think that with those 3 aces up their sleeve, they shouldn't have come out of the gate with more of the basics covered?

 

I can understand bugs and content, that is to be expected to take time to work out and deliver. But the dearth of standard features is what completely took my by surprise, and I think most people.

 

We now are in the position of having to wait years for it to catch up on the basics, meanwhile the competition isn't sitting still and is STILL moving forward. i.e. it's a never catch-up scenario.

 

That's the issue.

 

I think you mist my point, that or the lack of sleep made me miss yours.

 

What im trying to say is, that comparing WoW and TOR is like comparing a wii and a ps3, they are both gaming consoles, WoW and TOR are both MMO's.

 

the wii just focus on a different aspect of gaming then the ps3, as is it with WoW and TOR.

wii is more of a "hey lets have some fun and casual gaming". while the ps3 can be considered the more "hardcore" play style.

 

WoW is -in my opinion- more of a endgame experience, where the fun starts at the end.

While TOR is more about the journey to the end, not saying its not fun in the end, but its not like the so called "journey"

 

please correct me if im wrong... getting pretty tired

[Dirtybomb]

Because it's better for the game if they aren't here at all.

 

Lol! Wow, that is classic. You must be fun at parties.

[Lethality]

I think you mist my point, that or the lack of sleep made me miss yours.

 

What im trying to say is, that comparing WoW and TOR is like comparing a wii and a ps3, they are both gaming consoles, WoW and TOR are both MMO's.

 

the wii just focus on a different aspect of gaming then the ps3, as is it with WoW and TOR.

wii is more of a "hey lets have some fun and casual gaming". while the ps3 can be considered the more "hardcore" play style.

 

WoW is -in my opinion- more of a endgame experience, where the fun starts at the end.

While TOR is more about the journey to the end, not saying its not fun in the end, but its not like the so called "journey"

 

please correct me if im wrong... getting pretty tired

 

Well, I appreciate you trying to explain your point more thoroughly. I see where you are coming from.

 

But I think that would hold more water if BioWare actually made a Wii compared to Blizzard's Xbox.

 

They started to, in regards to storytelling on the individual character level... but then the rug comes out from under you and you're plunked down into a 1:1 copy of WoW's endgame except not as good and with less to do.

 

If they had somehow figured out a way to make a BioWare END GAME, then honestly this would be a whole different discussion! For the longest time, back when Gordon Walton was still w/ BWA, they were adamant that although they hadn't fleshed out their end game yet, it wasn't going to be like WoW's. That thinking obviously changed somewhere along the way.

[Knewt]

WoW is -in my opinion- more of a endgame experience, where the fun starts at the end.

While TOR is more about the journey to the end, not saying its not fun in the end, but its not like the so called "journey"

I think that is a very good description of the current philosophy for both MMOs.

 

In my opinion, the problem with TOR's philosophy is it does not capture the player at level 50. We get to 50, very proud of our accomplishment, and say "that's it?" For TOR to retain subscriptions, they need to address many of the deficiencies at max level. Players like me who just want to run a dungeon or two a few nights per week and maybe level an alt or two are probably the majority of the player base. At this point, TOR has made the end game experience painful for us. It is too time consuming to find groups for flashpoints. Gathering is kind of pointless since you can send people on missions. Ilum gets old really fast. Warzones are a mess with the population imbalance. There aren't enough engaging time sinks at max level to capture our interest.

 

After 50 levels of a fantastic story, when you finish Corellia everything seems to grind to a halt. The game doesn't feel lively at max level after you've finished the leveling content. My story feels like it's over.

[Emeda]

Lol! Wow, that is classic. You must be fun at parties.

 

Isnt what you quoted the same thing all the casuals tell anyone (like the hardcore players)that wants something they dont want.