Best Spec for Lvl 50 Flashpoints on Hard

[Asherdad]

I have been reading the boards as much as possible but I am still a little unclear on the following........what are the pros and cons of each spec at LvL 50 for Flashpoints on hard mode? I am currently watchman because I thought it would be the most useful to my guild but now I am starting to question this. Also, I am clueless on how Focus would be helpful in this situation. My fear is that sweeping will be counter-productive in groups becuase it will break my teams AoEs.

 

So what are the pros and cons of each for Flashpoints on Hard?

 

 

Thanks,

 

Asherdad - LvL 42 Watchman Sentinel - Knights of the Republic

Edited February 16, 2012 by Asherdad

[Ultratron]

I have been reading the boards as much as possible but I am still a little unclear on the following........what are the pros and cons of each spec at LvL 50 for Flashpoints on hard mode? I am currently watchman because I thought it would be the most useful to my guild but now I am starting to question this. Also, I am clueless on how Focus would be helpful in this situation. My fear is that sweeping will be counter-productive in groups becuase it will break my teams AoEs.

 

So what are the pros and cons of each?

 

 

Thanks,

 

Asherdad - LvL 42 Watchman Sentinel - Knights of the Republic

 

 

 

Watchman is probably the strongest single target sustained DPS spec, it also has a lot of good utility (such as self heals and an extra damage immunity for 4 seconds) and a lower cooldown charge with reduced min range (I only put 1 point into min range because you shouldn't use it while meleeing.

 

Combat is kind of in a sad state IMO. There is a small window where combat will be able to put out damage a little faster than Watchman. You can stay competitive but watchman will out-perform from my experience. You get some nice roots and a snare breaker, but that's not really important in PvE.

 

Rage's niche is AoE burst damage, I could see it being OK in PvE on very specific AoE oriented fights but other than that it will really struggle to keep up. By far the worst single target sustained damage spec. You also get an extra short range charge, but it is not a big deal in PvE.

 

 

My opinion in a nutshell: For PvP: Watchman For PvE: Watchman.

 

Rage has a gimmick spot in PvP for big numbers and it's pretty fun and exciting to play, while Combat has a spot in PvP due to the extra roots and snare breaker. But in the end I can't give up the raw single target damage/self heals/lower cooldown and lower range charge/damage immunity that Watchman provides.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Ultratron

[CivicTiger]

Combat will outdamage any of the other 2 specs in single-target DPS.

 

Focus use AOE's which is why it appears to do more damage at the end of a WarZone (which is the closest thing we have to a damage meter atm)

Wachman run a round and DOE people in PvP which again, makes them appear to do more damage when they dont to a single-target compared to Combat.

 

 

Combat is just harder to play. But as soon as you've built up your focus, if you know how to stay in your up-time then you're laughing.

I can out DPS an enemy faster then another DPS AND a tank hitting a separate enemy target at the same time, whether it be an elite or a boss fight (such as the 2 boss fight on Taral V) - You've just constantly got to know when to use the right rotations, when to use your zen and relic/adrenals.

[Ultratron]

Combat will outdamage any of the other 2 specs in single-target DPS.

 

Focus use AOE's which is why it appears to do more damage at the end of a WarZone (which is the closest thing we have to a damage meter atm)

Wachman run a round and DOE people in PvP which again, makes them appear to do more damage when they dont to a single-target compared to Combat.

 

 

Combat is just harder to play. But as soon as you've built up your focus, if you know how to stay in your up-time then you're laughing.

I can out DPS an enemy faster then another DPS AND a tank hitting a separate enemy target at the same time, whether it be an elite or a boss fight (such as the 2 boss fight on Taral V) - You've just constantly got to know when to use the right rotations, when to use your zen and relic/adrenals.

 

Misinformation doesn't help anyone

[Asherdad]

First of all, thanks for the replies. I still have a couple questions:

 

1. Even though there is disagreement on the “best spec” is it fair to say that both Combat and Watchman are effective in post lvl 50 PVE?

 

2. What about Focus, I like it, but is it effective in PVE post 50?

 

 

Thanks again for taking the time to help,

 

Asherdad – Lvl 45 Jedi Sentinel – Knights of the Republic

[Apocalypse-]

Combat only becomes passable with good gear. As a fresh 50, avoid it.

 

Focus is not viable for PvE because there simply isn't the need for lots of AoE in 99% of the fights.

[Talorra]

Don't forget the reduced cooldown on Kick (interrupt) that is available in Watchman. This is awesome for HM FPs.

[Ainianu]

Combat will outdamage any of the other 2 specs in single-target DPS.

 

Focus use AOE's which is why it appears to do more damage at the end of a WarZone (which is the closest thing we have to a damage meter atm)

Wachman run a round and DOE people in PvP which again, makes them appear to do more damage when they dont to a single-target compared to Combat.

 

 

Combat is just harder to play. But as soon as you've built up your focus, if you know how to stay in your up-time then you're laughing.

I can out DPS an enemy faster then another DPS AND a tank hitting a separate enemy target at the same time, whether it be an elite or a boss fight (such as the 2 boss fight on Taral V) - You've just constantly got to know when to use the right rotations, when to use your zen and relic/adrenals.

 

This

 

the guy who states Combat as a fresh 50 is suboptimal due to gear has a good point and it is true, but i would assume doing HM flashpoint would have got daily gear and some good purples, that should be good for it

[KruelhandJorb]

I found Watchman to be more viable in hardmodes but that Combat was fine. While it doesn't really seem like much healing the dot ticks from having 3 stacks + Cauterize + Zen can help healers manage their energy/force in boss fights from having to constantly be healing other people.

 

With Force Camo giving %100 dmg reduction if you pull agro you can escape getting your party wiped and also help your healer keep his focus on healing your tank. Granted your tank should be able to hold agro, but sometimes **** goes down and you pull. I've also found that in situations where the Tank goes down for whatever reason in Watchman you can almost off tank for long enough to get your battle rez off.

 

That and Merciless Slash hits like an effing truck all day every day. The real big thing though, as mentioned briefly, is 6s interrupt with Kick... that is money, big money! In fact now after playign Combat in PvP and PvE for a few days the only real reason why I went back to Watchman was the kick was just too good to pass up, even though I LOVED the 3s root on Crippling Throw (still that's a PvP talent if I ever saw one)

 

Combat is fine for PvE if you use it in PvP and don't want to respec it's quite a bit different in terms of rotation, and I don't feel that it gives anywhere near the utility of Watchman for PvE (re: group heals, self heals) but there's no real need to spec out of it.

 

Focus I can't really see being worth using for anything I've seen thus far, mostly because I tend to run FP with a Trooper who just drops his AoE down to clear adds and I find doing single target dps on the bosses to be more effective.

 

just my thought at least.

Edited February 22, 2012 by KruelhandJorb

[Tchege]

Focus is far from beeing useless in PVE. Ok it doesn't match watchman, but it still does really good dammage. Some people seems to think that focus only does dammage every 9s with the AoE, but we have many other good skills that we use between each AoE and which does really good damage.

 

I seriously think that Focus>Combat for Pve.

 

And talking about PvP it would be Focus>Watchman>Combat.

[Venator-Falco]

Misinformation doesn't help anyone

 

It is true, Misinformation doesn’t help anyone, but CivicTigers post doesn’t contain any misinformation. It is one of the better posts on the subject I have read in these forums.

If you disagree with him/her then how about you actually post some constructive arguments to back your thoughts on the subject.

As Combat you have two key roles in a Hardmode. First is Trash clearing and Combat is the best trash clearer in the game when there is CC happening. You can take out Normal mobs in 2 – 4 strikes and keep this up pretty much indefinitely, without using any AOE and risking breaking the CC on key targets. If you manage your rotation carefully your DPS output is comparative to any Watchmen. Better or worse is purely conjecture as we don’t have damage meters.

Does watchmen put out better sustained DPS??? Maybe, it is just too hard to tell. Can it clear trash as quickly so every one can get focused on the main event? No.

[seouleh]

I have never played a Combat Sent, I am only lvl 36 Watchman but I also have a 50 Shadow tank and a 50 Sawbone and have done most of the HM.

 

From what I have seen, both from a tank and healer perspective (with some shadow DPS) is that most of the “Mechanics” in the Boss fights are largely based on interrupts and movement.

 

I know that it’s pretty easy to trade off interrupts with the tank or some other DPS in your group but the low cool down on kick is priceless.

 

There seems to be no better form of sustained DPS than DOTs, with some of the mechanics in the Boss fights you’re not always within melee range or are moving so much that it’s much harder to do your optimal rotation because you have to concentrate on avoiding inc DMG. Overload and Cauterize are a huge chunk of your DPS and once they are applied, it is a pretty forgiving DPS mechanic when you can't just stand still and do DMG.

[Asherdad]

Great Info guys, thank you for your responses. I especially appreciate the info on the value of kick. I did not think about that. Also, I liked the information about how effective Combat is at clearing the trash mobs. Seems to be the case that if you need to focus on the main boss you want to spec watchman and if you want to clear the secondary mobs you spec Combat.

 

I've also found that in situations where the Tank goes down for whatever reason in Watchman you can almost off tank for long enough to get your battle rez off.

 

This point made me think of a follow up question. Obviously we are desinged to be DPS, but is there any other role that we can fill and if so how do we best do it?

 

Thanks again

[Apocalypse-]

This point made me think of a follow up question. Obviously we are desinged to be DPS, but is there any other role that we can fill and if so how do we best do it?

 

Thanks again

If you're geared enough, you can tank. If you are being hit, where Rebuke and Riposte are adding to your DPS off-GCD, your damage outclasses everyone and threat isn't an issue. Running Watchman to get the heals, you're a great sustain tank. Some of the Spikey fights are difficult, but good healers are going to enjoy the ride

[Backshots]

Watchman hands down is the best spec when doing FP HMs. Watchman brings a lot of advantages to the table such as the Cooldown Reduction on Force Kick, AoE HoT when you activate Zen, generate more Centering so you can activate Zen more often, best overall single target DPS, and no range on Force Leap if you decide to put those 2 points in.

 

Focus spec is nice for the AoE damage; however, when you are looking at survivability and single-target DPS Watchman has the slight edge over Focus.

[shadowflit]

Focus is far from beeing useless in PVE. Ok it doesn't match watchman, but it still does really good dammage. Some people seems to think that focus only does dammage every 9s with the AoE, but we have many other good skills that we use between each AoE and which does really good damage.

I agree.

 

Watchman dishes out a bit better single target dps and gets better interrupts. Focus has a bit less single target dps, but aoe's adds down in no time.

 

Also, if you're worried about sweep breaking cc, don't worry too much. Sweep's range is relatively small, I regularly use it even with a cc'd target nearby. Just need to be careful.

 

PS I don't dispute that Watchman is better for PvE, just the degree to which it is better.

Edited February 24, 2012 by shadowflit

[Ainianu]

Great Info guys, thank you for your responses. I especially appreciate the info on the value of kick. I did not think about that. Also, I liked the information about how effective Combat is at clearing the trash mobs. Seems to be the case that if you need to focus on the main boss you want to spec watchman and if you want to clear the secondary mobs you spec Combat.

 

This point made me think of a follow up question. Obviously we are desinged to be DPS, but is there any other role that we can fill and if so how do we best do it?

 

Thanks again

 

Actually Combat will generally pull ahead of the other two spec's in single target dps on boss fights and trash clear, it falls down on its lack of utility (self-heals, faster inturrupts) of watchman, and the aoe of Focus (flashpoints like Kaon was made for focus spec sentinels )

 

but the single target dps is really a judgement/opinion issue, i have played both and as combat it simply 'feels' much faster dps and if im on a boss i WILL get aggro garaunteed every single fight sooner or later (sometimes more than once after i ditched with camo i can get aggro again), where in watchman i never did (if this is purely damage being higher or if watchman has less aggro due to dots causing less is just assumption atm) But since i have force camo, i can loose it again without having to risk getting killed so its all good

Edited February 24, 2012 by Ainianu

[Danthars]

This is the watchmen spec im using

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#501bIrRroMcGzZhGb.1

 

I rotate between using overload saber, caturize merciless slash and slash

 

Use jump and zealous strike to generate focus

 

its pretty cookie cutter for endgame. Anyone have any improvements over this?

Edited February 24, 2012 by Danthars

[Apocalypse-]

This is the watchmen spec im using

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#501bIrRroMcGzZhGb.1

 

I rotate between using overload saber, caturize merciless slash and slash

 

Use jump and zealous strike to generate focus

 

its pretty cookie cutter for endgame. Anyone have any improvements over this?

 

Steadfast is absolutely useless, as is accuracy in general. Force Fade, Insight, and Defensive Roll are FAR better uses of points.

[Ainianu]

Steadfast is absolutely useless, as is accuracy in general. Force Fade, Insight, and Defensive Roll are FAR better uses of points.

 

Accuracy is not useless, you need 98% displayed stat for PvE, if you have an over-abundance of it on your gear choices. Then you can drop the talent or gear choices to bring it back down to 98%, but you only need more than that if your combat spec and/or doing pvp

 

If explanation needed....

 

the displayed accuracy is baseline at 90% (which is 100% for special attacks)

 

Enemies defense ratings lower your chance to hit essentially. If your accuracy is over 100% it is taken off their defense statistic.

many strong/elite/champion (and typically any boss on hardmode) has 8% defense statistic.

 

Therefore if you get your displayed accuracy to 98% you will overcome any enemy defense in PvE with your special attacks.

 

Why did i state combat spec and pvp as exceptions to this?

 

Combat Spec - Ataru can proc off main hand AND offhand, and your accuracy with offhand is a lot lower baseline than mainhand, so raising accuracy beyond 98% will still be raising your offhand accuracy rating.

 

PvP - above 8% in defense stat is very common in players, Sith Assassin/Sorcerer are at 10% naked (a sorc is likely going to remain at 10% however), Juggernaughts are bound to be higher than that as are powertechs

 

Defensive roll is cool though

[Apocalypse-]

Accuracy is not useless, you need 98% displayed stat for PvE, if you have an over-abundance of it on your gear choices. Then you can drop the talent or gear choices to bring it back down to 98%, but you only need more than that if your combat spec and/or doing pvp

 

If explanation needed....

 

the displayed accuracy is baseline at 90% (which is 100% for special attacks)

 

Enemies defense ratings lower your chance to hit essentially. If your accuracy is over 100% it is taken off their defense statistic.

many strong/elite/champion (and typically any boss on hardmode) has 8% defense statistic.

 

Therefore if you get your displayed accuracy to 98% you will overcome any enemy defense in PvE with your special attacks.

 

Why did i state combat spec and pvp as exceptions to this?

 

Combat Spec - Ataru can proc off main hand AND offhand, and your accuracy with offhand is a lot lower baseline than mainhand, so raising accuracy beyond 98% will still be raising your offhand accuracy rating.

 

PvP - above 8% in defense stat is very common in players, Sith Assassin/Sorcerer are at 10% naked (a sorc is likely going to remain at 10% however), Juggernaughts are bound to be higher than that as are powertechs

 

Defensive roll is cool though

For PvE, getting below +8% accuracy costs a lot of Power to do, going "for" accuracy is nonsensical. You can't easily avoid having more than you need. However, 3 talents for 3%? It's brutally inefficient.

 

And yes, some players have raised base defense. However, they're mostly either low priority or squishy enough that a missed attack is negligible. Additionally, how valuable is negating a ~2% chance of the attack not hitting if the other 98% of your attacks are doing more damage? Again, it's hard without a combat log, but I don't think 8% accuracy is the number to strive for. At least not until we get some real choices on itemization.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Apocalypse-

[selectah]

The "optimal" PVE-spec for watchman would be http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#501bIbRrRzfGzZhMMZb.1

 

For PVE-combat it would be http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#501bcZhGrbddMorsZG.1

 

Steadfast is highly recommended at combat spec, cause the off-hand has only 56%/66% chance to hit, to begin with. As ataru procs make up a good chunk of your dmg and it can proc twice. Once from mainhand- and once from offhand hits, the more you hit with offhand the better BR dmg will be, as it forces ataru procs on hits.

 

At watchman spec accuracy above 98%/108% is pretty much useless, as operation bosses have 8% defense chance (which is neglected by 108% special attack accuracy, as you only have one non-special attack which is strike).

 

I for myself tested the dps of both specs this by killing the same (high hp) enemy myself 10 times with each spec. Results were that combat did with optimal results excel watchman sometimes if everything went smooth, but could also be far inferior if some things went wrong. With watchman i did basically the same dps every time. That is with me beeing full T3 (Rakata) equipped except for my mainhand which is T2 PVP.

Edited February 24, 2012 by selectah

[Asherdad]

The "optimal" PVE-spec for watchman would be http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#501bIbRrRzfGzZhMMZb.1

 

For PVE-combat it would be http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#501bcZhGrbddMorsZG.1

 

I had not thought about only putting one point in Close Quarters. But you're right, I hardly ever use my leap if I am close enough to use my high damage abilities and usually I strike for focus.

 

Thanks!

 

 

What about the suggestion that we can tank. Has anyone else been succesful at doing this. What about off tank? It seems like a Combat spec might work for this.

 

Has anyone been able to successfully do either and if so, how?

 

Thanks again for all the help

[FobManX]

Do we know for sure though that Strike is our only basic attack? I think I remember reading/hearing somewhere that all white attacks were considered basic and all yellow were special. That would make every attack Watchman used considered Basic(Cauterize and Overload Saber dot ticks are yellow but the Cauterize attack itself is white and OS procs off white attacks). I'm not 100% certain though which is why I ask because I have the 8% accuracy now...

[Boissi]

Yes, I'm pretty sure only yellow attacks are considered special.