Morthis Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 THATS RIGHT FOLKS, TRASH MOB GRINDING You think the reason it took top guilds weeks to kill heroic Ragnaros despite putting in more hours per week than people put into their jobs because of trash mob grinding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobaFurz Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Doesnt matter if you have more operations, more flashpoints or whatever...for me the game world is missing one point: a Soul. Even 20 more flashpoints would not hold me for longer. And 3 tiny and very cramped Battlegrounds plus the broken Illum either. Where is StarWars ? most wee see is playing ball. Edited February 16, 2012 by BobaFurz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djsmileey Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) You think the reason it took top guilds weeks to kill heroic Ragnaros despite putting in more hours per week than people put into their jobs because of trash mob grinding? they spent weeks on the same boss fight. Not weeks on the whole raid. Many guilds had all the heroics done within a week except for heroic rag. He was talking about clear times for normal. FFXI Bosses sometimes took hours to kill in ONE attempt. Edited February 16, 2012 by djsmileey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amiracle Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 how do you make it longr then? tell me i really wanna see all your ideas, i bet not ONE of them is actually implemented in any other game...or is it? could it be that they dont want to throw ridiculous rng or grinds your way for gear? i mean, how long do you expect a weekly lockout raid to last you? six or seven hours for 2 or 3 days? oh yeah! wow actually did that , fair point.... but how did wow do this? THATS RIGHT FOLKS, TRASH MOB GRINDING *logic crits you for over 9000 damgae* *you die* *rez at medcenter? * And WoW is making how much a month with trash mob grinding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobaFurz Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Wow was actually revolutionary with its quest system, not to have a pure grind. Questing in the form wow did offer was more or less new. What you get in swtor ? Voice acting is fine, but at the end you are activating 100 x the same looking operating areas or boxes within quests. Edited February 16, 2012 by BobaFurz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morthis Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 they spent weeks on the same boss fight. Not weeks on the whole raid. Many guilds had all the heroics done within a week except for heroic rag. He was talking about clear times for normal. FFXI Bosses sometimes took hours to kill in ONE attempt. I specifically said heroic Ragnaros, not heroic firelands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaVolpex Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Leave normal as something for people to mostly just collect free loot on, make hard mode something guilds will spend a little bit of work progressing on but most decent guilds can clear, and NMM the one where the serious challenge begins. This allows pugs to still do operations for gear without too much worry about how good everybody has to be, the need for VOIP, etc, while presenting 2 levels of challenge for guilds who want more. awsome, will gear from all modes be on equal terms? just different visually ? what i mean is , shall we say, hard mode drops be within 1-2% on stats from one another? because there will be people that will care about this kind of stuff.... i think we will get more challenging NM's in the future, as they learn their game and their players more they can start hiring more people and getting more creative with their operation desings patience sir, wow wasnt really rocket science back in the day, you just had less tools and mobs had more hp....oh and trash mobs, lots and lots and lots of trash mobs to make those tanks spend gold on repairs and add nothing but tedium to the instance (for the record , kharazan and most stuff after was ok, molten core, and AQ geeezus talk about ridiculous) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djsmileey Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I specifically said heroic Ragnaros, not heroic firelands. Right, and I was explaining to you how insignificant it is. The Post that you were responding to was talking about normal clear times for an OPERATION. you responded by saying it took guilds weeks to kill heroic rag. One does =/= the other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfindreams Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Grind + challenge. Taking a few days to down each boss is what I meant. Not just boom nightmare mode yea! one shot first boss, one shot second boss, etc etc. Should be... Alright guys.... nightmare mode. First boss, wipe.... umm kk what did we do wrong.... okay try again.... wipe, okay guys make sure you dont stand in xxxx or move out of range of xxxx. Try again, hit enrage timer wipe.... okay make sure you are using all your buffs we need a bit more dps... Thats the type of thing I am talking about having a real challenge with rewards equal to that challenge not the same rewards as normal mode/hardmode.... because really other then challenging your group whats the point lol. MMO's are all about rewards and social. When I play a mmo I dont want to just roll through everything the first time and be like wait... that was it? Theres nothing harder? theres no better rewards for harder stuff? Really that was it? one week at 50 and I cleared all the content? ummm kk. /unsub, ya know what I mean? That's not grind tho... grind is doing (successfully) the same thing over and over again because you get either so small a reward or a small chance of a reward... I don't think it should be easy or even possible without a lot of work to succeed at some of these missions first time... but once you do succeed you should get something for it besides a sense of accomplishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emeda Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 after that come gear checks , gear score, dps meters, elitism, people stomping other people because of their raid gear, then raiders complain when they nerf content for the rest of the casuals, ...see where im going with this? You dont understand what causes gear checks and gear scores and DPS meters. Its not the elitists that use them the way you think they do. Its the casuals that use them that way. Gear checks were used by casuals to see if you had the gear to do the fights even if you already had the kills (the elitists know that gear can help someone but it doesnt tell you how good the player is). Gearscore is exactly the same thing. Casuals thinking that an artificial number determines if you are capable of doing content. DPS meters again, casuals use them to determine if the player is good or not where the elitists will use them to find who is doing their job and where they are failing. The worse player is always the lowest on the meters to a casual and those are the people they kick for being bad. When the fact is they could actually be better than the top DPS. I am number 5 on the dps charts but I interupt every cast that I am suppost to and I switch to the targets that need to be killed first and bandage myself when I need to so that healers can keep the tanks alive. Lets look at the number 1 DPS, he doesnt switch targets and tunnels on one target just to max his DPS and doesnt interupt a cast so healers have to heal more and he doesnt move out of the missle blast so healers have to heal more. Now the fight we wipe at 5% because the healers couldnt heal enough anymore. Who is the one to blame? The 5th dps that did everything right or the top DPS that did nothing but DPS and made the healers (run out of mana or focus). IF you said the 5th DPS you are a casual that thinks that individual play is more important than teamwork. Do you see where I am going with this. The people that you say are the problem are not the problem. The people that you say this effects are the problem because they are actually the ones that are doing it to you. You will call them elitist because thats the thing to do but they are actually your casuals that dont care about anyone else but themselves that are doing it. Now the reason we dont have endgame is because the engame is designed for the casuals that are not there yet so the other players that are at endgame find it to be easy content that they go though in no time. They make endgame content for the players that are not doing endgame yet and they dont make it for the people at endgame. Thats why we have no endgame content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barracudastr Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 they spent weeks on the same boss fight. Not weeks on the whole raid. Many guilds had all the heroics done within a week except for heroic rag. He was talking about clear times for normal. FFXI Bosses sometimes took hours to kill in ONE attempt. Yup, I would love to see this level of difficulty in swtor. I dont see why developers cater to one side or the other. Oh we have more casuals better make these boss's doable. Shoot just do it both ways! Okay normal mode will be for super casuals. Hardmode will be for casual but good players Nightmare will be for our hardcore player base that loves to wipe repeatedly trying to figure out a boss. Then have rewards for each mode. The rewards are for pve. make them useless for pvp you could get creative here like nightmare gear could be legendary grade but have like minus expertise on it so if you did wear it in pvp your going to hit even softer then if you had just basic pvp gear on. Theres so much they could do to draw a line between the two and give each side what they want without breaking things like pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vizionblind Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I have played: World of Warcraft (had lvl 70 Mage, when 70 was the lvl cap) Lord of the Rings Online (2x Lvl 75s at cap, main top geared, several other alts) Star Wars Galaxies (played almost a year) Star Trek Online (one character at Lvl Max) Runescape DC Universe Online And I can truely say that SWTOR has as much if not more endgame than any of those. Daily Quests on Ilum Daily Quests on Belsavis Operations Flashpoints Space Combat Datacrons Companions affection and storeline Crafting Ilum PvP other world PvP (Tatoonine) Warzones Social lvl Valour lvl Are you people kidding me? No endgame. all things you can do before endgame. your logic is flawed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBenSmokin Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Actually, If you look at what Bioware said, they mentioned that less than 10% of the player base has even experienced operations. So your argument is moot. Whatever.. I don't have the numbers.... My point stands that WoW vanilla was more challanging and of much higher quality. As well as my point about those to try to claim otherwise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaVolpex Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 You think the reason it took top guilds weeks to kill heroic Ragnaros despite putting in more hours per week than people put into their jobs because of trash mob grinding? not really , but i think its also a fallacy to say endgame was "longer" because of the added dificulty of having to coordinate FORTY PEOPLE into a single encounter, plus add to that the added time to gear up those same forty people and the percieved lenght or value of endgame in the repetition it was going to take... that was , in the context to the person i was quoting, however you picked one single line out of the entire thing and in the wrong context to boot , the only reason a raid in wow took a reasonable 3 or 4 hours for one of two days every week was because there was more repetition or more trash mobs making the place seem "longer" get it now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barracudastr Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 That's not grind tho... grind is doing (successfully) the same thing over and over again because you get either so small a reward or a small chance of a reward... I don't think it should be easy or even possible without a lot of work to succeed at some of these missions first time... but once you do succeed you should get something for it besides a sense of accomplishment. Yes and I think the rewards should be equal to the challenge but like top tier gear should be stated in a way that makes it bad for pvp like having minus expertise on it so you would basically throw out even the option of it being good for pvp compared to gear that increased your expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djsmileey Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Yup, I would love to see this level of difficulty in swtor. I dont see why developers cater to one side or the other. Oh we have more casuals better make these boss's doable. Shoot just do it both ways! Okay normal mode will be for super casuals. Hardmode will be for casual but good players Nightmare will be for our hardcore player base that loves to wipe repeatedly trying to figure out a boss. Then have rewards for each mode. The rewards are for pve. make them useless for pvp you could get creative here like nightmare gear could be legendary grade but have like minus expertise on it so if you did wear it in pvp your going to hit even softer then if you had just basic pvp gear on. Theres so much they could do to draw a line between the two and give each side what they want without breaking things like pvp. Hehe, it'll get there! Have some faith I have no doubts that Bioware will level out the difficulty settings as they go along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightrode Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 The issue with endgame in TOR isn't the length of the list it is the time it takes to complete it. Right now, one can complete the content, get BIS gear, get to BM, kill all bosses, etc in a very short period of time. The issue is the lack of difficulty. Content is only as expansive as the time it takes to complete it. That's the issue here. I suspected this back in beta. Unfortunately this seems to be true. The design philosophy lately in themepark MMO's is that raids need to be available for everyone. The average MMO player isn't very good, thus, operations in this game are easy. It's an unfortunate reality. It asks the question, do we want more epic, challenging content, or do we want more people to have gear and see the content (when it's immediately available, such as not 2 years after when the new expansion comes out). The choice is the developers. TBH, I'd like to see a balance of the two. Theoretically it makes no sense to balance operations based on the average players skill, well, because that can vary on so many factors. What percentage of people do we want to see and complete operations? Everyone? Only the top 80% of people? It's so ambiguous and confusing that it ends up being pointless and the quality of the game suffers. I think Burning Crusade did a good job of this. The worst players rarely saw raids. The average players saw some of the raids, such as karazhan or gruuls. The best saw almost everything to everything. When I say average, I also mean the average player, and keep in mind the average player is not very "good" at the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galanaer Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Actually, a lot of my friends and I that play SWTOR are not even at 50 yet. Reason why? Married, kids, work, and other responsibilities. We don't have the time to sit around for 6 hours a night and play, or take a break from college course work and play 9 hours to "blow off steam." If you did blow through the content and are at max level and did everything possible to do in the game and left no stone un-turned, then you really need to do something else then. I have played several MMO's throughout the years and it never ceases to amaze me the amount of complaining for steam boat willy players. You know, the ones that bum-rush through the game to be the next "elite" player so that everyone below them can see their e-peen armor, mount, whatever the case maybe. I just laugh at them. Instead if trying to be the first one at the end of the race, chill out and relax. Course, that's a whole-nother issue to talk about. Instant gratification society.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaVolpex Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) You dont understand what causes gear checks and gear scores and DPS meters. Its not the elitists that use them the way you think they do. Its the casuals that use them that way. Gear checks were used by casuals to see if you had the gear to do the fights even if you already had the kills (the elitists know that gear can help someone but it doesnt tell you how good the player is). Gearscore is exactly the same thing. Casuals thinking that an artificial number determines if you are capable of doing content. DPS meters again, casuals use them to determine if the player is good or not where the elitists will use them to find who is doing their job and where they are failing. The worse player is always the lowest on the meters to a casual and those are the people they kick for being bad. When the fact is they could actually be better than the top DPS. I am number 5 on the dps charts but I interupt every cast that I am suppost to and I switch to the targets that need to be killed first and bandage myself when I need to so that healers can keep the tanks alive. Lets look at the number 1 DPS, he doesnt switch targets and tunnels on one target just to max his DPS and doesnt interupt a cast so healers have to heal more and he doesnt move out of the missle blast so healers have to heal more. Now the fight we wipe at 5% because the healers couldnt heal enough anymore. Who is the one to blame? The 5th dps that did everything right or the top DPS that did nothing but DPS and made the healers (run out of mana or focus). IF you said the 5th DPS you are a casual that thinks that individual play is more important than teamwork. Do you see where I am going with this. The people that you say are the problem are not the problem. The people that you say this effects are the problem because they are actually the ones that are doing it to you. You will call them elitist because thats the thing to do but they are actually your casuals that dont care about anyone else but themselves that are doing it. Now the reason we dont have endgame is because the engame is designed for the casuals that are not there yet so the other players that are at endgame find it to be easy content that they go though in no time. They make endgame content for the players that are not doing endgame yet and they dont make it for the people at endgame. Thats why we have no endgame content your whole argument assumes that i , in wany way was actually on the side of the coin you think i was , when in reality i never even had the NEED to use gear score, because i stuck with the same group of people for 3 expansions, regardless, that was not the point of my post, it was more a reference on effect as a consequence off < actually played a healer btw this whole argument began with "is there endgame or not" , what i said (the nitty part you quoted) was in context to the rest of the post, wich of course, has NOTHING to do with this little debate at the end of the day, so im not even going to argue your points , because you didnt bother understanding mine btw, honest question, how long did it take you to "Clear endgame" and how many raids did it have when you started playing mmos? you must have some sort of point of reference to argue your point, wich i think its fair , right? Edited February 16, 2012 by LaVolpex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amiracle Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 You dont understand what causes gear checks and gear scores and DPS meters. Its not the elitists that use them the way you think they do. Its the casuals that use them that way. Gear checks were used by casuals to see if you had the gear to do the fights even if you already had the kills (the elitists know that gear can help someone but it doesnt tell you how good the player is). Gearscore is exactly the same thing. Casuals thinking that an artificial number determines if you are capable of doing content. DPS meters again, casuals use them to determine if the player is good or not where the elitists will use them to find who is doing their job and where they are failing. The worse player is always the lowest on the meters to a casual and those are the people they kick for being bad. When the fact is they could actually be better than the top DPS. I am number 5 on the dps charts but I interupt every cast that I am suppost to and I switch to the targets that need to be killed first and bandage myself when I need to so that healers can keep the tanks alive. Lets look at the number 1 DPS, he doesnt switch targets and tunnels on one target just to max his DPS and doesnt interupt a cast so healers have to heal more and he doesnt move out of the missle blast so healers have to heal more. Now the fight we wipe at 5% because the healers couldnt heal enough anymore. Who is the one to blame? The 5th dps that did everything right or the top DPS that did nothing but DPS and made the healers (run out of mana or focus). IF you said the 5th DPS you are a casual that thinks that individual play is more important than teamwork. Do you see where I am going with this. The people that you say are the problem are not the problem. The people that you say this effects are the problem because they are actually the ones that are doing it to you. You will call them elitist because thats the thing to do but they are actually your casuals that dont care about anyone else but themselves that are doing it. Now the reason we dont have endgame is because the engame is designed for the casuals that are not there yet so the other players that are at endgame find it to be easy content that they go though in no time. They make endgame content for the players that are not doing endgame yet and they dont make it for the people at endgame. Thats why we have no endgame content I think I may be the only one that read this. Nice read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meldwyn Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Actually, a lot of my friends and I that play SWTOR are not even at 50 yet. Reason why? Married, kids, work, and other responsibilities. We don't have the time to sit around for 6 hours a night and play, or take a break from college course work and play 9 hours to "blow off steam." If you did blow through the content and are at max level and did everything possible to do in the game and left no stone un-turned, then you really need to do something else then. I have played several MMO's throughout the years and it never ceases to amaze me the amount of complaining for steam boat willy players. You know, the ones that bum-rush through the game to be the next "elite" player so that everyone below them can see their e-peen armor, mount, whatever the case maybe. I just laugh at them. Instead if trying to be the first one at the end of the race, chill out and relax. Course, that's a whole-nother issue to talk about. Instant gratification society.... Sweeping generalizations about anyone at lvl 50 already... not real helpful to the discussion. But, more importantly, I must ask... are you the standard for how everyone should play the game and how fast they should enjoy it too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaVolpex Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Sweeping generalizations about anyone at lvl 50 already... not real helpful to the discussion. But, more importantly, I must ask... are you the standard for how everyone should play the game and how fast they should enjoy it too? the same question works for you.... are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigaus Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 omg.... did you even play vanilla endgame?? yep, but questioning your train of thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Actually, a lot of my friends and I that play SWTOR are not even at 50 yet. Reason why? Married, kids, work, and other responsibilities. We don't have the time to sit around for 6 hours a night and play, or take a break from college course work and play 9 hours to "blow off steam." If you did blow through the content and are at max level and did everything possible to do in the game and left no stone un-turned, then you really need to do something else then. I have played several MMO's throughout the years and it never ceases to amaze me the amount of complaining for steam boat willy players. You know, the ones that bum-rush through the game to be the next "elite" player so that everyone below them can see their e-peen armor, mount, whatever the case maybe. I just laugh at them. Instead if trying to be the first one at the end of the race, chill out and relax. Course, that's a whole-nother issue to talk about. Instant gratification society.... I'm in the same boat as you, I just made 50 last week with my wife. We did all the content together. We have a very erratic schedule and cannot devote much time to the game. But I do not consider us "gamers" any more either. And the guys in my guild that are gamers, that have time to devote to the game, have 2-3 50's and done everything the game has to offer, more than once. I think there are far more of those players around, than of folks like us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigaus Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I'm in the same boat as you, I just made 50 last week with my wife. We did all the content together. We have a very erratic schedule and cannot devote much time to the game. But I do not consider us "gamers" any more either. And the guys in my guild that are gamers, that have time to devote to the game, have 2-3 50's and done everything the game has to offer, more than once. I think there are far more of those players around, than of folks like us. I think there are far more of you than you think... and Middle-aged women are the largest gaming demographic due to social gaming on FB etc now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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