Logical fallacy of punishing WZ quitters - It will hurt more than help

[ouTJumped]

To fix the issue require the following for the match to count toward your daily/weekly.

 

• Complete the warzone
  
• Minimum three medals earned during the match
  
• Wins only count for extra valor/credits and do not count toward the daily/weekly.
  
• A twenty minute penalty for leaving a warzone
  
• Idle players who are not engaged in PVP are removed from the wz after one minute unless they are in range of a PVP objective (Guarding)
  

 

This is good. Incorporate both into the same thing. Punishment for those who want it. A way to get daily/weekly without being punished into suckfests.

[KungpowSalmon]

Posted this in a similar thread...

 

For every player that leaves a wz because he "thinks" he's better than his entire team and doesn't want to waste his time, there are probably three more quitters that leave because they need to be carried by another team that is better than they are.

 

Regardless of someone's individual pvp skill, I still have more respect for someone who will keep trying and take it in the chin like a man as opposed to a quitter who wants to cherry pick his battles.

 

There are many many more people out there who simply do not want to put forth even the slightest amount of effort into attaining a hard fought victory and are waiting to get carried than there are selfish elitists who think they are much more skilled than their teammates, are "too good" to get farmed, and don't want their precious time wasted.

 

Both of these types of people make me sick to my stomach. The upcoming penalty to deter this behavior is anything but a fallacy. The only thing it could possibly harm is a fragile ego or a leech. This is a good thing.

[mangarrage]

See I personally have a totally different spin to this.

I have left about 10-15 since the beginning

 

The difference to me honestly I do not care at all if I win or lose

Losing is usually the reason people leave

 

The reason I leave is absolute stupid play

Everyone defending one door and the other door gets taken

 

4 people guarding one turret when the opposing team has the other 2 turrets

 

Everyone in the WZ is completely afraid of having the huttball

 

And one time I left due to the fact that there was one healer on the other team who was healing everyone but the only person who thought it was logical to attack them was me. That I never understand

 

To me I feel these are absolutely legitamate

If they put in a penalty. I am all for it and I will gladly accept the 15min or whatever they do. It doesn't matter to me

 

What matters to me is whether or not people grasp the basic concept of the game and attempt to accomplish the goal, win or not I dont care

 

But unfortunately with this stupid system of medals alot of people go in there and that is their goal get the most medals and that's just sad

[TheRFC]

BW isnt stupid and they have been real quick at responding on some things,they have a card or two up their sleeve i bet.

 

 

The daily wins STILL don't count. How many patches have failed to fix that?

 

Glitches are one thing, time can deal with those.

 

My point is, is this game is far too much a solo-RPG. It's not meant for end-game. What CAN they do with Ilum? How many more 'WZs' can they have up their sleeve?

 

So many people are going to have an L50 character very soon w/ not a whole lot to do.

 

It should have taken months and months for people to cap a toon. The casual player can do it in like 3 weeks.

 

They've shortened the time it takes to level a char so the story flows and it's ultimately going to destroy this game.

[Sathid]

See I personally have a totally different spin to this.

I have left about 10-15 since the beginning

 

The difference to me honestly I do not care at all if I win or lose

Losing is usually the reason people leave

 

The reason I leave is absolute stupid play

Everyone defending one door and the other door gets taken

 

4 people guarding one turret when the opposing team has the other 2 turrets

 

Everyone in the WZ is completely afraid of having the huttball

 

And one time I left due to the fact that there was one healer on the other team who was healing everyone but the only person who thought it was logical to attack them was me. That I never understand

 

To me I feel these are absolutely legitamate

If they put in a penalty. I am all for it and I will gladly accept the 15min or whatever they do. It doesn't matter to me

 

What matters to me is whether or not people grasp the basic concept of the game and attempt to accomplish the goal, win or not I dont care

 

But unfortunately with this stupid system of medals alot of people go in there and that is their goal get the most medals and that's just sad

 

Yah but here's the skibby on that,some people just are not that bright in this world and sometimes you gotta put in alittle more effort around them.

 

Look at public service announcements,dont they sound like they are adressing a bunch of elementary kids? see,but for the most part 95% of the people who play this game have atleast a basic understanding of the game,some may be new to a zone and they will get better.

[Umythiel]

In WAR they implemented a quitter debuff and they after 2 mins afk you have 1 min to do something or they kick you out and you get quitter debuff anyway. WINWIN

 

Also, if you used some macro to not trigger the afk debuff, they'll catch you someday. I know LOTS of people that got their accounts banned (not permanently though) for this.

 

And we all know what a raging success warhammer turned out to be.

[Sathid]

The daily wins STILL don't count. How many patches have failed to fix that?

 

Glitches are one thing, time can deal with those.

 

My point is, is this game is far too much a solo-RPG. It's not meant for end-game. What CAN they do with Ilum? How many more 'WZs' can they have up their sleeve?

 

So many people are going to have an L50 character very soon w/ not a whole lot to do.

 

It should have taken months and months for people to cap a toon. The casual player can do it in like 3 weeks.

 

They've shortened the time it takes to level a char so the story flows and it's ultimately going to destroy this game.

 

Sadly games are not like that anymore,i still play EQ2 and i remember when the "Whiners" wanted lvling to not be such a grind they said,and others said " I dont want to group" and others said "We should get exp pots".

 

Same is happening here,there was a whole thread in general about removing spaceports and to make travel easier,slippery slope and i have seen it in every game.

 

Oh and didnt they say that the no win on the WZ's is because of ppl dropping from the WZ's? if thats the case does anyone realize how many man hours of time the quitters have cost the SWTOR community? Granted BW should of fixed that many moons ago.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Sathid

[KungpowSalmon]

And we all know what a raging success warhammer turned out to be.

 

How does gaging the success of WAR make it a bad idea? Please, tell me more...

[admriker]

See I personally have a totally different spin to this.

I have left about 10-15 since the beginning

 

The difference to me honestly I do not care at all if I win or lose

Losing is usually the reason people leave

 

The reason I leave is absolute stupid play

Everyone defending one door and the other door gets taken

 

4 people guarding one turret when the opposing team has the other 2 turrets

 

Everyone in the WZ is completely afraid of having the huttball

 

And one time I left due to the fact that there was one healer on the other team who was healing everyone but the only person who thought it was logical to attack them was me. That I never understand

 

To me I feel these are absolutely legitamate

If they put in a penalty. I am all for it and I will gladly accept the 15min or whatever they do. It doesn't matter to me

 

What matters to me is whether or not people grasp the basic concept of the game and attempt to accomplish the goal, win or not I dont care

 

But unfortunately with this stupid system of medals alot of people go in there and that is their goal get the most medals and that's just sad

 

agree 100%

 

this is why I leave as well.

 

I dont mind a loss if it was a good fight. but its incredibly frustrating to be the only person trying to kill a healer when everyone else is chasing a dpser.

 

do people just not look up on a ramp ? do they not wonder "gee im doing a ton of dps but this player's health is still at 100%" ? do they not notice the healer healing the other healer while im the only one trying to kill him ?

 

I'll suffer a loss any day of the week but Im not going to be farm bait simply because the other players only care about medals and that ridiculous ranking system at the end

 

I've literally had players tell me "please dont throw me the ball" or watch them toss it on the ground so they can go back to killing. i should be forced to play with someone like that ????

[OatsRawr]

How about instead of a kick option, you have a vote to forfeit as a team

If you see a 4-0 huttball or a 100-360 turrets, or a pug vs. full BM team, start the vote to forfeit and your team can end the game early.

 

Win Trading! Not just for Ilum any more!

 

You let us win, next round we let you win. Quick 30 second games! Woo! Everyone in BM gear by the end of the day.

 

This isn't possible with teams put together at random. In a simple majority vote you would need 5 votes but a team premade can only have 4 atm. I see your concern but trading wz's with this suggestion would be VERY difficult and time consuming

[Umythiel]

How does gaging the success of WAR make it a bad idea? Please, tell me more...

 

How does saying war did it make it a good idea?

[KungpowSalmon]

How does saying war did it make it a good idea?

 

I see.

 

You appear to have some difficulty with context. Who he said implemented the idea is irrelevant. But I'll just stop right here since it seems you don't quite get it.

[Erasimus]

Patchtch 1.2, among many other PvP changes, will remove the reliance on daily quests for your gear progression (and therefore increasing the value of the commendations you get for playing a match to the end) and penalties for quitters.

 

This is the quote from the developer blog. So it looks like they are going to do both. Enhance the rewards for staying in the WZ and penalize those that quit.

 

I think this is the right approach. Are their people that will just stop playing WZs? Perhaps, but those that do were probably just doing it for the easy gear progress by hopping WZs and only staying in the ones where it looked like an easy win.

 

A number of times I've seen this type of person leave when the first set of doors is open on the Voidstar or when it is 1-1 in Hutball and it looks like a close match. If this type of person, who obviously must not enjoy PvP no longer queues that would, in my opinion, be a good thing.

 

I'm talking about 50 WZs but I've seen the same kind of behavior in 49 and under WZs.

[EternalFinality]

How does saying war did it make it a good idea?

 

Because it was effective at preventing afkers and leavers in warzones?

 

I mean, that's the goal, right?

[wellwoodbuxchopx]

How about instead of a kick option, you have a vote to forfeit as a team

If you see a 4-0 huttball or a 100-360 turrets, or a pug vs. full BM team, start the vote to forfeit and your team can end the game early.

 

 

 

This isn't possible with teams put together at random. In a simple majority vote you would need 5 votes but a team premade can only have 4 atm. I see your concern but trading wz's with this suggestion would be VERY difficult and time consuming

 

This might work, though I'm not completely against a deserter debuff, because if people are going to be stuck in a WZ, they might as well try and win. Deserters with a debuff can't PvP again for some time. Right now deserters can PvP again immediately, so that's something. Yesterday someone on my server was complaining that he kept getting put into WZs that were already started. Well, no ****, if your leaving when you enter, what do you think other people are doing? Stay and fight it out, maybe farm some medals, who gives a ****.

 

To people who are saying "I only leave when my team isn't competent," I find that people aren't very vocal in the WZs. Maybe you can urge these people into playing the way you think is proper? But you have to do it kindly, people who just pop off in chat with messages like "KILL THE *********** HEALERS" aren't helpful, they just seem like ******es, and no one wants to do what they say.

[Umythiel]

I see.

 

You appear to have some difficulty with context. Who he said implemented the idea is irrelevant. But I'll just stop right here since it seems you don't quite get it.

 

Its good you should stop right there. You have a hard time drawing relevance from the original quote.

[TheRFC]

Sadly games are not like that anymore,i still play EQ2 and i remember when the "Whiners" wanted lvling to not be such a grind they said,and others said " I dont want to group" and others said "We should get exp pots".

 

Same is happening here,there was a whole thread in general about removing spaceports and to make travel easier,slippery slope and i have seen it in every game.

 

Oh and didnt they say that the no win on the WZ's is because of ppl dropping from the WZ's? if thats the case does anyone realize how many man hours of time the quitters have cost the SWTOR community? Granted BW should of fixed that many moons ago.

 

 

IMO, they've catered far too hard to the casual base and people just aren't going to stick around with a L50 char with nothing to do but 3 or 4 WZs for more months.

 

5% tops should be at L50 by now and they should be those who've non-stop played since release. To be able to get a L50 char and get them fully geared in 2 weeks tops for a hardcore player just destroys any longevity the game has.

 

That kind of thing is suited for something like Mass Effect 3, which I love, but not an MMO.

 

The game in general is too easy to play and only a marauder class really takes anything other than mashing buttons to do well with.

 

There's just not enough to do and the skill curve is far too shallow to keep people interested in the long-term.

[Novare]

agree 100%

 

this is why I leave as well.

 

I dont mind a loss if it was a good fight. but its incredibly frustrating to be the only person trying to kill a healer when everyone else is chasing a dpser.

 

do people just not look up on a ramp ? do they not wonder "gee im doing a ton of dps but this player's health is still at 100%" ? do they not notice the healer healing the other healer while im the only one trying to kill him ?

 

I'll suffer a loss any day of the week but Im not going to be farm bait simply because the other players only care about medals and that ridiculous ranking system at the end

 

I've literally had players tell me "please dont throw me the ball" or watch them toss it on the ground so they can go back to killing. i should be forced to play with someone like that ????

 

Yes you should because you choose que solo.

 

You are most likely the person that spouts garbage then rage quits instead of asking the ops ldr to mark the healers for ease of kill.

 

How you can possibly get upset by someone telling you dont throw me the ball Ill never uderstand. That person is letting you know they arent a ball carrier.

 

Pugging pvp means dealing with all that que or sitting in timeout like the kid you act like!~

 

 

 

So many dont seem to understand how bad it can get. Here is an example started a civil war match, both sides full, before the game starts our side now has 4 ppl. We get reinforcements but only after we land and the other sides numerical advantage had them at a 3 cap, followed by the reinforcments leaving cause they see this.

 

Its a vicious circle, especially when you see those that quit get put back in the group only to quit again.

[drdarpa]

To fix the issue require the following for the match to count toward your daily/weekly.

 

• Complete the warzone
  
• Minimum three medals earned during the match
  
• Wins only count for extra valor/credits and do not count toward the daily/weekly.
  
• A twenty minute penalty for leaving a warzone
  
• Idle players who are not engaged in PVP are removed from the wz after one minute unless they are in range of a PVP objective (Guarding)
  

 

You're almost right. Remove the penalty, it isn't needed. If you remove the penalty, your other options will be enough to convince people who don't like playing with bads to stay for personal gain, which is about 90% of your quitters. The other 10% of quitters get punished with this sort of a penalty unfairly because it's RL aggro or game-related bug issues.

 

As for the win or loss, don't award valor/credits/xp (for under 50) based upon a win. Award it based upon individual performance toward the warzone objective. The boolean math isn't that hard:

 

==============

Team A

==============

 

• Bob has huttball between 2:03 and 2:15 into the game, bob is increasing his valor/comms.
   
  
• Bill has guard on bob, bill is increasing his valor/comms
   
  
• Jenny and Brody are healing bob and bill, Jenny and Brody are increasing their valor/comms
   
  
• Mike, Ashley, and Jethro are fighting within a constant 20 meters of the ball carrier and using CC's, they are increasing their valor/comms
  

 

=================

Other Team

=================

 

• Jeff, Jay, Steve, Pedro, Alexandria, Lisa, and Peter are attacking bob, bill, or jenny, they are increasing their valor/comms
   
  
• Skyflash is at the opposite end of the field looking up at the ceiling and using the "a" and "d" keys to turn his character and attacking random players at the spawn with his leet TRASER MISSEL!!!!!11!!1!!!PEWPEWPEWPEWPEW!!!1!1!! - Skyflash is not increasing his valor or comms.
  

 

With this model as a very vague example of a single wz, both offense and defense are increasing their valor and comms. When they score a huttball, They see increased valor and comms spread equally amongst the participants of the hutball. The way you control this is to place a vicinity buff on the team similar to the debuff you have from touching the huttball. The vicinity buff wears off in once enough time has passed with you not being around the huttball for the time that it would take a person without sprint to reach the other side of the arena from their spawn.

 

You get valor and comms based upon your individual performance toward the objectives of the game, win or lose, regardless of level (for 1-49). If this was the case, you would never catch me leaving a warzone again, and you'd start to see a new class of player breed, instead of some other MMO's leftovers.

Edited February 16, 2012 by drdarpa

[savionen]

So many dont seem to understand how bad it can get. Here is an example started a civil war match, both sides full, before the game starts our side now has 4 ppl. We get reinforcements but only after we land and the other sides numerical advantage had them at a 3 cap, followed by the reinforcments leaving cause they see this.

 

Its a vicious circle, especially when you see those that quit get put back in the group only to quit again.

 

What's stopping them from AFKing in the corner instead of quitting over and over again though? Nothing. Instead of having 8vs8 with 4 people constantly joining and leaving, you'll just have 8vs8 with 4 people afking over in the corner, or stealthed.

[Tierce]

Posted this in a similar thread...

 

For every player that leaves a wz because he "thinks" he's better than his entire team and doesn't want to waste his time, there are probably three more quitters that leave because they need to be carried by another team that is better than they are.

 

Regardless of someone's individual pvp skill, I still have more respect for someone who will keep trying and take it in the chin like a man as opposed to a quitter who wants to cherry pick his battles.

 

There are many many more people out there who simply do not want to put forth even the slightest amount of effort into attaining a hard fought victory and are waiting to get carried than there are selfish elitists who think they are much more skilled than their teammates, are "too good" to get farmed, and don't want their precious time wasted.

 

Both of these types of people make me sick to my stomach. The upcoming penalty to deter this behavior is anything but a fallacy. The only thing it could possibly harm is a fragile ego or a leech. This is a good thing.

 

So you just want to punish these people because you don't like them, you don't like how they think, they're different than you. This is not logical or rational.

[Ahhmyface]

The obvious solution is to just ban them.

 

That way they can't sabotage matches, or quit them, ever again. I guarantee if we just ban the scrubs, the game will be more fun to play within a week.

 

In fact, I bet the policy will be so effective that by the next week, we can ban the kill traders, and then me and my 4 pvper friends can enjoy fighting the 3 pubs left.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[Tierce]

I see.

 

You appear to have some difficulty with context. Who he said implemented the idea is irrelevant. But I'll just stop right here since it seems you don't quite get it.

 

So then the logic is, everyone else is jumping off a bridge, so we should do it too? Awesome.

[Patched]

Yes you should because you choose que solo.

 

You are most likely the person that spouts garbage then rage quits instead of asking the ops ldr to mark the healers for ease of kill.

 

How you can possibly get upset by someone telling you dont throw me the ball Ill never uderstand. That person is letting you know they arent a ball carrier.

 

Pugging pvp means dealing with all that que or sitting in timeout like the kid you act like!~

 

Perhaps you should wait till it is posible to not pug pvp before you get on that high horse.

 

Also, if you believe there is anybody in huttball that should never be a ball carrier you need to play more. Anybody with a green bar in front of you should be a valid ball carrier when you're going down to focus fire.

[TheRFC]

The obvious solution is to just ban them.

 

That way they can't sabotage matches, or quit them, ever again. I guarantee if we just ban the scrubs, the game will be more fun to play within a week.

 

In fact, I bet the policy will be so effective that by the next week, we can ban the kill traders, and then me and my 4 pvper friends can have fighting the 3 pubs left.

 

 

And watch the game die even faster than it's already doing.

 

Good hussle.