Logical fallacy of punishing WZ quitters - It will hurt more than help

[nemhook]

A vote/kick option would allow a team to cut out cancerous players unwilling to participate with a team towards a common goal- like this hero^

 

see a vote kick would be a good thing, i myself do not care for going around killing reds, the objective is my goal but far too many lack any idea of strategy and just run around doing whatever without thinking.

 

Why should people be forced to stay in those groups or be stuck with them, you may get a few good players in a WZ but if you have too many bad players it can go bad fast, an option to vote kick on 50% of the votes would be a start, BW do not think about solutions to problems they think about force.

[richardya]

So do you want to get stuck in a WZ with these people, or would you rather leave. The players like you describe are going to be the biggest problem, because they are going to be the ones purposely hurting their own team for entertainment and to expedite the end of the Warzone. You gotta get past how much you dislike these people and want to see them punished and look at the realities of how, no matter what, you can't force them to do what you want, and are only going to end up hurting yourself by doing so.

 

Selfish people who can not deal with losing will not give maximum effort, I agree, but I would imagine they will medal farm now. I would rather play with 6 teammates and a medal farmer than 6 teammates and an empty slot.

 

I dont want to punish them, I want them to stop ruining my games. When I go up 2-0 I immediately see people on the other side leaving which ruins the game by turning it into a romp. Obviously if I am down 2-0 and the cowards leave they make the other team go on a romp.

 

I want less games to be 6-0 and 0-6.

Edited February 16, 2012 by richardya

[ouTJumped]

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You must play that in your headphones all the time don't you? Good players don't quit because the game is hard.

 

Nope. They quit because it isn't fun.

[undiess]

People wish to partake on even footing. Getting stuck with bad players against a premade BM =/= equal footing, or fun, for that matter. I find good competitive WZs fun, and I will stay for a loss. A blowout is not fun, and I won't stay for that.

 

You find good competitive WZs fun, yet you don't like competition becuase you quit.

[ouTJumped]

Selfish people who can not deal with losing will not give maximum effort, I agree, but I would imagine they medal farm now. I would rather play with 6 teammates and a medal farmer than 6 teammates and an empty slot.

 

I dont want to punish them, I want them to stop ruining my games. When I go up 2-0 I immediately see people on the other side leaving which ruins the game by turning it into a romp. Obviously if I am down 2-0 and the cowards leave they make the other team go on a romp.

 

I want less games to be 6-0 and 0-6.

 

I agree with you.

 

However, I do not see people quitting at 2-0, nor do I.

 

I see people quitting at 4-0 or 5-0, and I do too, because at that point it is clear the losing team has no idea what they are doing. Like I said before, competitive games, even losses, are fun. Blowouts =/= fun.

[ouTJumped]

You find good competitive WZs fun, yet you don't like competition becuase you quit.

 

Do you read? I said I play and take losses when it is close. Blowouts are not competition, it is one side getting stomped.

[Mohawksinspace]

A dev has posted that they will simply enhance the value of participating in the war zone, which is the logical route.

 

Though we need a rated system so that people aren't cornered into being farmed regularly.

[Tierce]

Large numbers huh,just HUGE numbers lol cmon quit trying to blow smoke up peoples *** your gonna reach so hard to try and justify leaving its silly,why dont you just not que for WZ's? i mean why do you need PvP gear when you dont even wish to partake?

 

You're not reading what I'm typing. I don't want to be stuck with people who don't want to be there. They are either not going to try to help the team win, or are going to actually help the other team win for amusement and to expedite the end of the game. Trying to force people to do something they don't want to do is pointless and many times, self-destructive.

[Sathid]

People wish to partake on even footing. Getting stuck with bad players against a premade BM =/= equal footing, or fun, for that matter. I find good competitive WZs fun, and I will stay for a loss. A blowout is not fun, and I won't stay for that.

 

Been there and i never left,three weeks ago myself and many of the 50's on Ajunta Pall would lose about 75% of the time or more due to the Imps being better geared,and you know what i hardly ever saw people leave.

 

Now Republic wins about 70% of the time on Ajunta Pall in the 50 bracket,why? because you know many of them have gear,they scratched,clawed and earned it and it shows,nah you go ahead keep quitting im sure youl go far.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Sathid

[Huaracocha]

Yes I'm sure a few people will do as you say, the real grade A selfish idiots. Then the complaints will be about afkers or people griefing their own team and that too will eventually be remedied.

 

In fact deliberately helping the other team or killing your team mates etc would already be considered griefing and if reported with a SS should get you an infraction.

 

The vast majority of quitters - and there are a heck of a lot of em atm not a few as someone said - do so simply because they can. They get no punishment, it's the path of least resistance. Once one does it, others follow.

 

A simple deserter debuff will prevent 90% of quitting imo and is much needed.

 

All the people saying otherwise are just quitters who regard themselves as somehow above putting up with a crappy match where your team gets owned. Get over yourselves.

[ouTJumped]

Been there and i never left,three weeks ago myself and many of the 50's on Ajunta Pall would lose about 75% of the time or more due to the Imps being better geared,and you know what i hardly ever saw people leave.

 

Now Republic wins about 70% of the time on Ajunta Pall in the 50 bracket,why? because you know many of them have gear,they scratched,clawed and earned it and it shows,nah you go ahead keep quitting im sure youl go far.

 

Good for them. Id rather not have to grind 1000 WZ comms so I can get the reward I would get for 2 dailies.

[drdarpa]

You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome.

 

You must play that in your headphones all the time don't you? Good players don't quit because the game is hard.

 

An example of a bad player in denial is quoted.

[skyflash]

A dev has posted that they will simply enhance the value of participating in the war zone, which is the logical route.

 

Actually a dev has stated that they are implementing a deserter debuff and are looking into ways to increase the rewards for BM, which is the logical route, yes.

[Selestian]

Hopefully the selfish who cant deal with being on a losing team or in their preferred WZ will quit the game.

 

The lack of thought you put into your post is pretty evident in your conclusion.

 

They will just AFK.

[darkrom]

A deserter type debuff will ruin pvp. Instead of watching others leave the game and new players joining, we'll have a bunch of people AFK, avoiding the debuff, or helping the other team end the match as soon as possible.

 

I honestly don't understand why people wanted to punish others for leaving to begin with. Why would you want to force someone to stay when they obviously will not be actively trying to help your team? Now you will have no chance of someone joining who will help. Sounds like a control freak issue to me.

[ouTJumped]

Your perspective is all wrong,somethings take time and there is great joy when against odds you over come,thats life,if you want everything handed to you ,you will be very unhappy.

 

I don't want everything handed to me, and I have overcame great odds in my personal life.

 

I don't want to play a game that is like work. I play to have fun. Having to grind to be on equal footing with others in not fun. If I wanted to work hard, I'd get a part-time job, in addition to work study.

[Sathid]

Actually a dev has stated that they are implementing a deserter debuff and are looking into ways to increase the rewards for BM, which is the logical route, yes.

 

Ha ha whoo im at Valor 57 and was 56 two weeks ago because i knew the whiners would get their way lol,they might as well scrap the whole PvP armor gig since everyone is gonna be the same anyhow for the most part soon enougth.

 

Good job dumming down a game kiddos,you always do this,freaking brilliant.

 

Ps the term kiddos was not directed at you skyflash.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Sathid

[Manigma]

You're playing the wrong game genre. This is an MMO. The grind is included. You work hard in this game to get the good stuff. Things aren't handed to you.

A game should never feel like "work" if it does, it has failed in it's design - MMO's might be a timesink but they shouldn't feel like working.

[skyflash]

A deserter type debuff will ruin pvp. Instead of watching others leave the game and new players joining, we'll have a bunch of people AFK, avoiding the debuff, or helping the other team end the match as soon as possible.

 

Yes, that is perfectly fine, however, and will not ruin PvP at all. It will just ruin that one game where it happens.

 

The problem is not that people leave a game and thus ruin it, the problem is that they can do it again and again to a lot of games in a very short timeframe.

 

So if the deserter buff makes people AFK or help the other team, that is completely fine.

[TheRFC]

The penalty should be transporting them to Ilum and having them stay their for an hour, the ONLY way to pass the time being to play WZs!

 

Suddenly Huttball just became far more interesting! Ha ... Let me be farmed for an hour, just not Ilum - PLEASE!!

 

 

BUT ...

 

I agree w/ the OP.

 

Why do 99% of people quit? Daily's want WINS, sucka! Looks like a loss? Why bother staying? Gaming etiquette? Ha!

 

Someone who plays 10 matches and gets 1 WIN is in exactly the same position as someone who started 10 games, and quit all but 1 which was a WIN.

 

Make the Dailies about playing for the objective/ change the medals to objective ones =

 

 

PEOPLE CAN GET THEIR DAILIES DONE + IT ISN'T RELIANT ON A WIN

 

 

'But people will still be trying to farm medals! Wah wah ...'

 

They do now even if they stay! Number 1 reason a team loses is because people don't play the objective. Playing the objective facilitates winning.

 

 

Deserter Debuff;

 

- Doesn't solve AFKing issue. So we need a vote-kick (even more for BW to get wrong!)

- Doesn't stop glitches punishing players who don't mean to 'quit'

- If it worked on WoW .... GO BACK THERE, THEN!

 

 

The only positive a debuff offers is to keep happy the jack-boot wearing crowd that love the thought of punitive measures just for the sake of punishing people ... until it happens to them by accident and then they're the first to get on the forums and QQ about it. The kind of people who call quitters 'scum' and 'd-bags' are the LAST people I want to have any influence over this kind of decision. Go back to strangling kittens or whatever you do for fun outside of SWTOR.

 

 

I've quit all of 3 times in WZs from 3 alts, one Rank 61 Valor, and the other 2 in the 40s. No getting my kill-trading on either, pure WZs/ Huttball. It frustrates me when people leave but not so much as when people STAY and AFK or just ignore the objective.

 

 

I don't get a hard-on thinking how I'd like to punish people. It's a game and a very unpolished, Beta-looking game at that. Take a chill, peeps. Constructive measures > punitive ANY DAY.

Edited February 16, 2012 by TheRFC

[ouTJumped]

Yes, that is perfectly fine, however, and will not ruin PvP at all. It will just ruin that one game where it happens.

 

The problem is not that people leave a game and thus ruin it, the problem is that they can do it again and again to a lot of games in a very short timeframe.

 

So if the deserter buff makes people AFK or help the other team, that is completely fine.

 

I don't understand how this is better for you, though. Either way your team is going to be down. Wouldn't you rather he leave and allow room for someone who might want to play it?

[Sabbathius]

You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome. You are awesome.

 

You must play that in your headphones all the time don't you? Good players don't quit because the game is hard.

 

Look, all else aside. Let me ask you, what is a level 10 player in a 10-49 WZ? Personally I feel that doing this is like giving the 7 people on your team the finger. Just because you CAN do it, doesn't mean you should.

 

It was the exact same thing in WoW. Level 10-19 battleground. One group would have mostly level 16+. Another group would have mostly level 10s, and would get horribly slaughtered.

 

Seriously, what can a level 10 do? Heck, what can a level 20 do to a level 49? Even 39 vs 49, all else being equal, level 49 will win 99.8% of the time.

 

So why is it when I end up in a warzone where 4-5 players on my team are giving me the finger, I am the one that gets punished for leaving? Doesn't make much sense. These people show up expecting to be carried. And I refuse to carry them.

 

Similarly, some people are just awful. And you don't have to be awesome to know that they're awful. Like when your teammates die on the way to the ball, without any enemy contact by running into the fire or standing in acid. Do you really think these people contribute in any way to the WZ? No, they are there once again expecting to be carried. And once again, I refuse to carry them.

 

If my choices come 1.2 boil down to AFKing or eating a deserter debuff or quitting the game altogether, I'm kinda leaning towards the last option myself. Well, that or only play with a premade. Which is nice, but I have a hectic schedule. And I kinda feel bad when my premade gets matched up to a PUG...with level 10s and morons. Especially if the few good players on that team can't even quit without being punished for it.

[TheRFC]

I don't understand how this is better for you, though. Either way your team is going to be down. Wouldn't you rather he leave and allow room for someone who might want to play it?

 

 

Flagged for being too sensible/ constructive a suggestion!

 

OJ!

 

But seriously, I wouldn't even bother paying attention to the guys who want people punished for the sake of it. BW won't! Ha ...

[Tierce]

Selfish people who can not deal with losing will not give maximum effort, I agree, but I would imagine they will medal farm now. I would rather play with 6 teammates and a medal farmer than 6 teammates and an empty slot.

 

I dont want to punish them, I want them to stop ruining my games. When I go up 2-0 I immediately see people on the other side leaving which ruins the game by turning it into a romp. Obviously if I am down 2-0 and the cowards leave they make the other team go on a romp.

 

I want less games to be 6-0 and 0-6.

 

I understand this and get no enjoyment from 6-0s or 0-6s either. And sorry, had to edit my previous post to say "rather than they leave?" as that was what I meant to say and totally changes the meaning from how I previously typed the sentence.

 

From my experience, if a game starts out 0-2 or 2-0, the losing side turns it around much more often when the bad players, just looking for quick wins, leave the Warzone, and better players get in their spot and help turn it around. When the bad players stay in the game, it usually just continues in the same direction and is often a much more drawn out, yet clearly decisive and painful loss. Same thing when the game starts out vice versa where my team is facerolling the opposition.

 

Like last night in an Alderaan, we were winning with a 2-1 control, but not past the point where 1 base would win it. A few of the other side left, and some much better players got in their spot and gave us a run for the money. What was going to be a dull, boring, sit on our bases while the entire other team sits on their 1 for defender points, turned into a fun game where we had to fight hard at mid to keep it and hold onto the victory.

[Sathid]

Look, all else aside. Let me ask you, what is a level 10 player in a 10-49 WZ? Personally I feel that doing this is like giving the 7 people on your team the finger. Just because you CAN do it, doesn't mean you should.

 

It was the exact same thing in WoW. Level 10-19 battleground. One group would have mostly level 16+. Another group would have mostly level 10s, and would get horribly slaughtered.

 

Seriously, what can a level 10 do? Heck, what can a level 20 do to a level 49? Even 39 vs 49, all else being equal, level 49 will win 99.8% of the time.

 

So why is it when I end up in a warzone where 4-5 players on my team are giving me the finger, I am the one that gets punished for leaving? Doesn't make much sense. These people show up expecting to be carried. And I refuse to carry them.

 

Similarly, some people are just awful. And you don't have to be awesome to know that they're awful. Like when your teammates die on the way to the ball, without any enemy contact by running into the fire or standing in acid. Do you really think these people contribute in any way to the WZ? No, they are there once again expecting to be carried. And once again, I refuse to carry them.

 

If my choices come 1.2 boil down to AFKing or eating a deserter debuff or quitting the game altogether, I'm kinda leaning towards the last option myself. Well, that or only play with a premade. Which is nice, but I have a hectic schedule. And I kinda feel bad when my premade gets matched up to a PUG...with level 10s and morons. Especially if the few good players on that team can't even quit without being punished for it.

 

Before the 50's bracket myself and two other guildys would group and que for Wz's,we were all 50 and one of my guildmates would say to a lvl 10 "Why are you here? you dont even have sprint"

 

The level 10 would respond " I pay for this game too" notice something there? it is the same response as the WZ quitters,,,for the life of me i always pictured a twelve year old when that exchange happened and asked my guildmate to go easy,but now no way on these quitters because as i can see you guys are not twelve,you just act like your twelve.