Lack of End Game: Is BW reacting quick enough?

[Kallman]

I can understand why Bioware would want casual players... they would spend 6 months playing what appears to have the features of a singleplayer game.. and by that time they have paid 3x the cost of what a singleplayer game normally sells for. It`s a win for them.

 

However I don`t play mmorpg`s for the storyline. I can get that from singleplayer games at a much better price.

 

The game has a good storyline 1-49 , but I expect more at endgame.

 

1. Limited gear

2. limited skill variety

3. limited raids

4. limited economy

5. limited tradeskills

 

There is not enough things to chew on.. everything was handed to me without effort and I am left without anything meaningful to do.

[Mrs_Murder]

I've been playing 2 months and I'm *STILL* not Level 50. When I get there, I'll play my alts some more, and BE PATIENT waiting for them to introduce new content.

 

Oh god, you're one of those. Some people play MMORPGs for character optimization and endgame raids/operations. We play single play games if we want to level up and level alts.

I also enjoyed the game up until I got rank 60. And us wanting more content wouldn't affect you in any way, so why so mad?

 

And an MMORPG is in no way comparable to a book, which is a product with an actual ending. Comparing a single player RPG to a book would be more right. Thing is, an MMORPG is not supposed to end. You're not supposed to run out of things to do.

[Mrs_Murder]

I can understand why Bioware would want casual players... they would spend 6 months playing what appears to have the features of a singleplayer game.. and by that time they have paid 3x the cost of what a singleplayer game normally sells for. It`s a win for them.

 

rofl, quoting for truth.

[rahlle]

One question i've asked my self several times, why make a nightmare/hardmode when you have exactly the same tactics etc?

 

We one shotted every boss on both modes (Except bonetrasher and SOA, due to both fights being totally retarded)

 

Make the content challanging, we want content much like the pretbc one in WoW, where you spent month's wiping on a single encounter (C'thun etc.). And where you the fight actually required you to put some brain into it, much unlike the mindless content we got now.

[Muskaan]

One question i've asked my self several times, why make a nightmare/hardmode when you have exactly the same tactics etc?

 

We one shotted every boss on both modes (Except bonetrasher and SOA, due to both fights being totally retarded)

 

Make the content challanging, we want content much like the pretbc one in WoW, where you spent month's wiping on a single encounter (C'thun etc.). And where you the fight actually required you to put some brain into it, much unlike the mindless content we got now.

 

C'thun wasnt challenging - C'thun was bugged, unkillable because of the bug. Try heroic Ragnaros if you want a challenging fight or even M'uru or Heroic Lich King.

[Mrs_Murder]

Make the content challanging, we want content much like the pretbc one in WoW, where you spent month's wiping on a single encounter (C'thun etc.). And where you the fight actually required you to put some brain into it, much unlike the mindless content we got now.

 

I think this is what the majority of the hardcore gamers are longing for. That epic feeling, and the feeling of earning your purples.

[SturmUndSterne]

Oh god, you're one of those. Some people play MMORPGs for character optimization and endgame raids/operations. We play single play games if we want to level up and level alts.

I also enjoyed the game up until I got rank 60. And us wanting more content wouldn't affect you in any way, so why so mad?

 

And an MMORPG is in no way comparable to a book, which is a product with an actual ending. Comparing a single player RPG to a book would be more right. Thing is, an MMORPG is not supposed to end. You're not supposed to run out of things to do.

 

You seem to be forgetting the last three letters of what this gametype are. R. P. G.

 

I'd rather them take their time and produce quality content then slapdash out a bunch of poorly optimized junk.

 

Case in point: KoTOR 2.

 

It is literally impossible for Bioware to produce enough content to satisfy people like you. They could release thirty flashpoints, a hundred ops, and three new planets in the next two weeks, and within five days the hardcores would say "Ok, finished that, NEXT?"

 

That's what my problem is. If they continue producing content like that, you create barriers to entry that cause the game to fail. If in order to play the high-level content well you HAVE TO be at level 50, and you HAVE TO have max gear, if you're a noob, there's no point to playing. Only people who get in at launch are useful to those raids.

 

Check these forums. People are always talking about how no one wants to do normal mode flashpoints. No one wants to allow anyone without top-tier gear into their raids. What's the point of playing if you're not one of the elite few who have the time to powerlevel then?

 

Any entertainment product's success is NOT determined by the hardcore user. It's determined by the casual. The hardcores will always go bigger-better-newer. They're fickle. It's the casual gamer who will play this game for a year and a half that Bioware is targeting, and if you don't like it, leave.

 

Finally - most MMORPGs are not books. This one is. This is a story-based game. Period.

[Bizwolf]

In order to keep up with today's players you have to do one thing.

 

You have to introduce at least 2 new raids and 4 new FP's every two months. That still won't work though because they will only offer Columi and Rakata. Well, everyone is in that pretty much so they have to give new gear. Well, they can't because then everything in the game will be too easy, so they have to up the level cap. Well, they can't because it's waiting for the expansion. Well, they can't wait that long because no one will be here. So there's a huge problem.

 

I think with each new raid out, there's a new tier of gear. Up the stats by 4 on each thing is all.

 

Warzones, simple, upon entering a warzone, you are put in the best pvp gear. Everyone is equal and if you win, you are better or your team is laid out better.

 

Open up the world completely. If I can sneak on the RF, let me so I can kill people. Make a huge quest line that opens up the world to no phasing and no restrictions. It would turn into the lag fest that is/was Illum (the Fleet that is) but at least it gives you something to do.

 

With as creative as these guys are, I'm shocked they did it this way and couldn't see that people would beat an MMO for the first time ever.

[rahlle]

C'thun wasnt challenging - C'thun was bugged, unkillable because of the bug. Try heroic Ragnaros if you want a challenging fight or even M'uru or Heroic Lich King.

 

Doesn't make any sence that plenty of guilds downed It, including mine, do it?

[Azzras]

Fact: If your only form of endgame is developer-generated content, people will clear it much faster than you can introduce new things, unless the content is extremely hard (see: Age of Conan Tier 3 and Tier 4).

"

 

Fact: Generate your own content in SWTOR.

 

Get a bunch of lvl 1's to crash fleet...naked.

 

Be creative if you're bored, or just log out for a bit.

 

[Mrs_Murder]

You seem to be forgetting the last three letters of what this gametype are. R. P. G.

 

And you seem to forget the first three: M.M.O.

I'd rather them take their time and produce quality content then slapdash out a bunch of poorly optimized junk.

 

Right, because like, the current operations are absolute mint quality. It's not like they're bugged as hell and you often can't even receive the loot, or the boss respawns, or you die from being CCed after exploding your ball -- Oh wait you wouldn't know anything about what the game is at 50, because you're playing a single player game.

 

 

It is literally impossible for Bioware to produce enough content to satisfy people like you. They could release thirty flashpoints, a hundred ops, and three new planets in the next two weeks, and within five days the hardcores would say "Ok, finished that, NEXT?"

 

And what does this mean? The operations aren't difficult enough.

ALL we want raiding-wise is a) Difficult and challenging operations, an b) some phat lewt as reward. That's all. We don't want thirty operations, we want the current ones to be challenging and we want a reason for doing them. I used to force my guild in WoW to do the fish boss in ZG because a killer staff dropped from it. The next upgrade for that was the AQ40 Mace, and I was exalted before we even attempted AQ40 because I wanted that mace so badly.

In SWTOR, gear-wise, there's no reason to do PVE. None.

 

 

 

Check these forums. People are always talking about how no one wants to do normal mode flashpoints. No one wants to allow anyone without top-tier gear into their raids. What's the point of playing if you're not one of the elite few who have the time to powerlevel then?

 

Who the hell does flashpoints? I've done ONE, and that was BT. Normal when I was level 10, and twice or so on HM at 50. That's all. There's no reason to do normal flashpoints; there's no reason to even do HM FPs. That's why no one are doing them.

 

And there is no such thing as "top-tier gear" in this game. You don't need Rakata for anything. You can PVP for a week and get decked in gear good enough for Nightmare. They could keep the current system of Normal-hard-nightmare, just make Nightmare an actual challenge rather than a faceroll for the average skilled players. It wouldn't affect the casuals in any way.

 

Any entertainment product's success is NOT determined by the hardcore user. It's determined by the casual.

 

Because?

Do you know why Battlefield Heroes managed to rescue their sinking ship? They catered to the peacocks. They actually added an ingame item which was a Peacock. It cost 5000 Battlefunds if I remember correctly, which was quite a lot for a silly item. Many bought it. And that's why BFH is still alive.

 

The hardcores will always go bigger-better-newer. They're fickle. It's the casual gamer who will play this game for a year and a half that Bioware is targeting, and if you don't like it, leave.

 

Haha yes indeed, Bioware are making you pay 3x the money for a single player game. And it's not even a good single-player game. Dragon Age had a much better story, and more gametime. Skyrim was amazing. This, this is like Dragon Age 2 -- which you finished in 3 days.

 

Finally - most MMORPGs are not books. This one is. This is a story-based game. Period.

 

All MMORPGS are story-based... until you reach the max level.

 

So apparently, a bunch of single-player-loving-people are confused and think this is a single player RPG with a chat function and therefor Bioware should ignore what the MMO-crowd want, since this game is all about leveling and not at all about playing the content which is available... interesting.

Here's a thought: level to 50 and play the WHOLE game before saying it's awesome.

And also: expanding the MMO part won't ruin your single-player game, jsyk.

 

Such anger.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Mrs_Murder

[PjPablo]

It would be helpful if the endgame PVE content was just a bit more time consuming/difficult. Content is only as expansive as the time it takes to complete it. If there was just a bit more 'grind' I think you would have less complaints about endgame. Right now it just seems that people can blow through it too easily and are left with no challenge.

[GnatB]

Oh god, you're one of those. Some people play MMORPGs for character optimization and endgame raids/operations. We play single play games if we want to level up and level alts.

I also enjoyed the game up until I got rank 60. And us wanting more content wouldn't affect you in any way, so why so mad?

 

*shrug*

 

So play it as a single player game where you happen to occasionally interact with other people. That's basically what it is. And I'd argue one with MORE content than most other single player games, not less, with the probability of far more/more frequent content additions than most single player games.

 

Which is possibly why I like this game. Single player games are always better than MMO's. MMO's just tend to take longer to experience.

[Azzras]

Who the hell does flashpoints? I've done ONE, and that was BT. Normal when I was level 10, and twice or so on HM at 50. That's all.

And there is no such thing as "top-tier gear" in this game. You don't need Rakata for anything. You can PVP for a week and get decked in gear good enough for Nightmare. They could keep the current system of Normal-hard-nightmare, just make Nightmare an actual challenge rather than a faceroll for the average skilled players. It wouldn't affect the casuals in any way.

 

So you say there is a lot of content that you haven't tried, but it's not for you.

 

You also said in another thread (or this one) that you haven't played an MMO in like 5 years, yet you talk like you are form Paragon in WoW.

 

 

What's so bad about doing the Heroic Flashpoints? Not worth it to you because there's no epeen?

Edited February 16, 2012 by Azzras

[Muskaan]

What's so bad about doing the Heroic Flashpoints? Not worth it to you because there's no epeen?

 

Nothing wrong with them. Once you clear them all, there's no point going back. And they have WAY too much trash to make them fun when you repeat them.

[OsarionRDM]

Devoid of anything except a mouse maze that always has the same (or somtimes no) cheese at the end of the tunnel.

 

Now, before you go all /wrists on us, OP, keep in mind that every single MMO goes through this stage. People inevitably get to 50/endgame fairly quickly, scream about PvE content, scream about PvP balance <--- that one NEVER ends by the way, complain about this and that.

 

I've played a lot of MMOs over the last 13, 14 years and I've been there for a lot of their launches. You think TORs boards are any different than any other MMOs, particularly at launch? You think GW2 or TERA's boards will be any different? Think again my friend.

 

I hate to break it to you all, but this is par for the course. Not to mention that Bioware has flat out stated that bug stomping (and let's face it, they need to work just on that process alone) is their #1 priority before content. The game is barely 2 months launched. If you thought you'd have as much to do as in WoW or ANY OTHER well-established MMO, you were only fooling yourself, and only have yourself to blame for your disillusion.

 

Having said that though, I will say that Bioware has allowed the playerbase to reach endgame far too quickly for what is there, and makes it too easy to skip their story driven MMO focus they kept spouting on about for years and years.

[Yuuj]

I log on to SW:TOR once a week as does my guildies. We clear EV and KP on hardmode in like 4-5 hrs (depending on how long we wipe due to bugs) and log off for the night.

 

I have this same problem. I'd have my fifty if it weren't for all the bugs that keep killing me and slowing me down and preventing me from obtaining the necessary experience to hit 50. >(

[Arkerus]

Well, the problem is, both games want $15/month from me *right now.* And since I'm only going to pay for one of them, they have to compete "head to head." If they don't want to do that, SWTOR can let me play for free for the next 7 years of live play while they catch up.

 

I'm not blaming SWTOR for being years behind WoW. I get that WoW has been around a long time and has had lots of iterations and such. But I'm not paying as a social statement - I'm paying to play the best game I can. And that just doesn't seem to be SW, much as I want it to be.

 

I spent two months playing SWTOR, and yeah, it reminds me a lot of a space-skinned WoW vanilla, circa 2004. And if that's what it has to be, that's fine - but it doesn't win the race for my $15. If they go FTP, I'll come back. But I just can't justify the "big league" subscription fee for what is still a "AA" title.

 

"If they go F2P"?

 

ha.

 

I love how people spout this like its bound to happen.

 

Sorry bub, but this game is a little too successful to go F2P.

 

AA title? Like you're some kind of gamer-pro who knows a AA title when he sees one. Does the rest of the industry come to you for advice? Spare us the rhetoric and keep the conversation constructive.

 

You could tell us why you don't like certain features or what items you would like to see but you're too busy going "lol F2P lol" to make any sense.

[sheisty]

LOl, the last single player game I played I beat in 35 hours. this game I already have over 200 hours logged between just 2 characters, a lv 50 and a lv32, and I have not yer even begun to scratch the surface of the end game or the entirely different faction I have yet to play or the other stories on my faction.

 

For $75 I have paid so far for this game, I have gotten way more moneys worth than any single player game I ever played.

[Mrs_Murder]

So you say there is a lot of content that you haven't tried, but it's not for you.

 

You also said in another thread (or this one) that you haven't played an MMO in like 5 years, yet you talk like you are form Paragon in WoW.

 

 

What's so bad about doing the Heroic Flashpoints? Not worth it to you because there's no epeen?

 

Why would I want to do said content? That's the problem. There's no reason to do them, at all. I like the social aspect of 16 man operations, that's why I do them. There's no social aspect of 4 man FPs. If FPs were 16 man I'd be all over it.

 

And who the hell are Paragon? Is this some post-ez-mode-wow guild that no one cares about? I quit WoW because it got noobiefied, many years ago. I've stayed away from MMO's due to the addictive nature of them, but now I felt that I could handle diving back into an MMO -- only to realise that all MMOs are now noobiefied?

I actually played LOTRO today but the graphics made my eyes bleed.

[ACLucius]

I love this. The first page of general forums goes like this: "I am sick of all these bugs, FIX THEM BW!." Next thread says "we don't have enough end-game content in here, FIX THIS BW!"

[Mrs_Murder]

 

Sorry bub, but this game is a little too successful to go F2P.

 

The April numbers will most likely show otherwise. All the hardcore players are waiting for the new OPs, which undoubtedly will be just as easy as the current ones. They'll clear it in one week then unsub, game dies.

[Dark_Ombra]

I dont know why people still talk about WoW, this game should have end after Lich King expansion. Cataclyst is pure **** and have nothing to get me into the game. They make everyone the same... No more individual build.. You have to put all your point in the same place as everyone or your just so bad that you cannot compete. You have to get to the top level or nothing good happen to you... In fact

 

SWTOR is completely diffrent. The game play is more fun, you can make your tree like you want and it's possible to not get the end power of a tree and still be good... Why people want to make SWTOR like WoW when WoW should be ended since he is too easy, too boring and the end game is chilling in Ogrimar and make people drool on your epic gear. Yes they have more level... but in fact it's very very very very boring to level in WoW... Not like in SWTOR where you have a story to listent, maybe the writer story is not the best , but it's way better then any story in WoW.

 

The crafting system is maybe the worst part of the game... Yes the crafting is not hard enough, you have everything granted to you on plate and the only crafting system that give you something at the end game is Bio, all other get you gear that have nothing to do with the power of the end gear.

 

The PvP is a little to random.... I dont want to do Huttball, but on my server, the Imperial are totaly demolish, they have no one and they are low geared vs Republic... So what happen is that no IMP play on PvP anymore and we have to play Huttball 300 times a day. This is maybe not BW fault that it's like that, but it's bad for us player.

 

 

The end game is fine... Crafting and PvP is what we should try to change.

 

 

By the way WoW pvp is enven worst and crafting system is no where near Ultima Online crafting... an even older game.

[Arkerus]

The April numbers will most likely show otherwise. All the hardcore players are waiting for the new OPs, which undoubtedly will be just as easy as the current ones. They'll clear it in one week then unsub, game dies.

 

And when the hardcore, "don't leave their computer" players leave it might not even have a noticeable effect.

 

WoW devs already told us only 5-10% of the player base even sees/enters a raid. The rest run normal content and PvP.

 

So EVEN if what you're saying is true (and it won't be) a loss of 5% is insignificant considering that new players are joining while people are leaving. Its insignificant ANYWAY consdiering 5% won't even be the loss. Not all "hardcore" players up and quit when they beat the content.

 

Many help their guild. Some PvP. The forums are hardly the place to count numbers since its the complainers who mostly post. Happy players don't come here all that often.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Arkerus

[Dranzen]

I 50'd too fast I guess.

 

I can't log on anymore (without wanting to dig my eyes out with a taco bell spork).

 

Ride in circles in the center of Ilum? Na, that's not epic.

 

Zerg raid on Ilum? Boooring...

 

Broken FP's with little / and sometimes no rewards? Na...

 

Or having done them all (?).

 

End Game? What end game?

 

Who can do the same things over and over THAT many times?

 

Once again, I'd recommend the game to anyone. 1-50 is great fun, but post 50, this game is empty.

 

Devoid of anything except a mouse maze that always has the same (or somtimes no) cheese at the end of the tunnel.

 

-Empty shelled

 

MMOs are about more than the themepark, they're about the players you play with in the game.

 

My guild has numerous activities we do throughout the week, and yes, one of the activities is clearing EV and KP (we're working on Nightmare right now with four different groups).