Theme Park vs Sandbox, What Do The Players Think?

[Goretzu]

"This demonstrates pretty well the longevity of Sandbox features in an MMORPG, something SWTOR could seriously do with! "

 

So in 9 years, if SWTOR is still kicking around with 500k to 1million subs, we can all stop arguing? It's a double standard dude. EvE proves one thing, you can run a game for a decade, and have a stable sub base, but it also demonstrates the lack of appetite for do-it-yourself sandbox mmorpgs.. It's a double standard, and it's wisdom through hindsight. SWTOR is in it's first 6 months of operation. If they keep a 1-1.3 million solid base for the next decade, alot of the complainers will still deem it a "failure".

 

See you here in 9 years! (SWTOR won't be around in 9 years if they don't incorporate some sandbox features.

 

As it stands the active subs is under 1m, and may be as low as 500,000 already.

 

But you tried to use EvE as an example of a "failure", clearly it is not, it is still going 10 years after it was release (most are not - and the rest are mostly free to play or 1 server), and it is the ONLY MMORPG that has contantly and is STILL increasing subs after 10 years (even WoW isn't doing that! )

 

So EvE is an example of a huge success and longevity.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

See you here in 9 years! (SWTOR won't be around in 9 years if they don't incorporate some sandbox features.

 

As it stands the active subs is under 1m, and may be as low as 500,000 already.

 

But you tried to use EvE as an example of a "failure", clearly it is not, it is still going 10 years after it was release (most are not - and the rest are mostly free to play or 1 server), and it is the ONLY MMORPG that has contantly and is STILL increasing subs after 10 years (even WoW isn't doing that! )

 

So EvE is an example of a huge success and longevity.

 

Exactly. EvE is a huge success indeed, recently read every year the new sub numbers increase over 50%. There is no decline whatsoever. They´ve got a solid and growing subscriber base, and the game constantly gets better and more accessible.

"Dust 514" anyone? Awesome concept.

Also looking forward to the social hubs on walkable stations they plan. The goal is making the game "the ultimate science fiction simulator".

Edited May 17, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Goretzu]

Hmmmmm, how did RVR suddenly become Sandbox?

 

I swear people today dont know what sandbox definition is and just use it as a "keyword" or "FOTM Term".

 

RVR is not sandbox or themepark (though while I love RVR from DAoc (pre RAs)) its far more themepark then sandbox if you want to go that route.

 

JtLS, I at least can see why thats called sandbox even though you did have pre determined limits invovled.

 

But its to no avail any ways, this game will never become a sandbox game (the real definition or the false FOTM term being used on these forums). This is a themepark game that simply lacks socialization/interaction/community building content (and no of that required is sandbox btw).

 

As someone else said, if you want sand in this game, your going to be disappointed. Sandbox design doesnt do well in modern day MMO sales.

 

 

RvR isn't sandbox, but it is sandy, as it is always changing (within a structure admittedly - but even minecraft is withing a structure, just not as tight a one) and is dependent on player input, not AI, NPC, scripted encouters etc., etc.

 

RvRvR is a sandy feature, and one that SWTOR could do with, look at Rift and it's RvRvR.

 

 

You can have very structured RvR (like AV or your average instanced Warzone), but equally you can have very sandbox RvR (such as DAoC, Planetside, or to a lesser degree WAR).

 

Certainly RvRvR (or WvWvW in GW2's case) is pretty sandy, with the features mentioned in a post above here it would be VERY sandbox in SWTOR.

[DyasAlue]

Okay, back to being constructive...

 

I wanted to add this recent review (2/7) of ArcheAge. Warning: It's a long read with clips, but well worth the effort.

 

http://archeagesource.com/topic/636-archeage-cbt4-review-and-extensive-game-info/

 

Enjoy.

 

Still trying to read this whole thread. While I enjoy SWTOR myself, I must admit that looks like a nice game so far.

[DyasAlue]

I disagree about WoW and TOR. TOR is 'more sandy' than WoW. I explore every nook and cranny of the planets, or as much as possible. The different areas, the way the mobs are laid out, the champion and elite mobs. There are many reasons to explore and spend time in/on the different TOR planets/environments. I never got that with WoW.

 

The fact that there are also different leveling paths in TOR means that it is 'more sandy' than at least vanilla WoW was.

 

I still can't seem to catch up with this thread, but I am loving it so far.

 

I agree on the paths. They say with legacy (very single player feature IMO) you can pick extra exp for story, for extra quests, for pvp. They are making the leveling dif in a fashion.

[mattgyver]

Exactly. EvE is a huge success indeed, recently read every year the new sub numbers increase over 50%. There is no decline whatsoever. They´ve got a solid and growing subscriber base, and the game constantly gets better and more accessible.

"Dust 514" anyone? Awesome concept.

Also looking forward to the social hubs on walkable stations they plan. The goal is making the game "the ultimate science fiction simulator".

 

ugh Dust 514 looked so great until I realized it was PS3 only!! so stupid.

 

but at least it's more choices of activities for the EVE players. That's what we need here. SWTOR is the basic module, now we need the add-ons (3d Space, swoop racing, open living worlds).

[DyasAlue]

...

Example, some people want full sandbox player housing with cities being built and player controlled. While a fun feature, it's not useful in a themepark game. People would build cities and abandon them when new operations and warzones are released. The cities become empty and lifeless most of the time. Can't have that. But say we receive in a new content patch the Zeltron homeworld with their massive holo zone funland. Say you and a party of friends visit there and you guys want to do a little swoop racing. You go to the racing area and discover you can race on hundreds of custom race tracks, all made by players like you. You can even design your own race track with hazards, ramps, speed boosters, loops and other such things.

...

 

Still reading.. man this is long. But I support that for something they are saying they are adding.

[DyasAlue]

Sandbox is sandbox, just like PvP is PvP. Because MMORPGs may not have managed to tap it well yet, doesn't mean the market doesn't exist, nor that is isn't a huge market.

 

PvP gaming is THE biggest population pool on the internet, MMORPGs haven't fully tapped that market either (things like RvRvR have the chance to move that direction though).

 

 

But either way it's Sandbox features that keep people interested for long periods, Themepark PvE just results in less than 50% retention of inital sales within 2 months (as we've seen with SWTOR), about the only Themepark PvE MMORPG to break this was the orginal, WoW (LOTRO did well for a while too, but had a very strong IP and development theme).

I can see the end of the thread! OK, so I picked your post for the above. Look at Star Craft 1 & 2. I don't know how many players they have, and yes it isn't an RPG. But it is all about the PvP in the sense that the story mode is just to learn the ropes.

 

Edit:

OK, so enjoyed the read. one thing I want to add. Isn't the mod/Armoring/Barrel/Enhancement sandy? You can choose what your armor looks like. Granted you can't use will as a bountyhunter, but you could put it on. I know for Bountys there is a discussion for how much acc, vs power vs surge vs alacrity. People are getting the drops from other classes, ripping the mods out, and mixing matching what they want. Can you make your own armor? I think you can to a degree. With 1.3 you can add augments to whatever you want. This will let you pick your look. Get the drops from any armor you want for stats you want.

 

Will an ultimate PvP or PvE build be found? Most likely. We can all at least look how we want doing it.

Edited May 23, 2012 by DyasAlue

[Goretzu]

I can see the end of the thread! OK, so I picked your post for the above. Look at Star Craft 1 & 2. I don't know how many players they have, and yes it isn't an RPG. But it is all about the PvP in the sense that the story mode is just to learn the ropes.

 

Edit:

OK, so enjoyed the read. one thing I want to add. Isn't the mod/Armoring/Barrel/Enhancement sandy? You can choose what your armor looks like. Granted you can't use will as a bountyhunter, but you could put it on. I know for Bountys there is a discussion for how much acc, vs power vs surge vs alacrity. People are getting the drops from other classes, ripping the mods out, and mixing matching what they want. Can you make your own armor? I think you can to a degree. With 1.3 you can add augments to whatever you want. This will let you pick your look. Get the drops from any armor you want for stats you want.

 

Will an ultimate PvP or PvE build be found? Most likely. We can all at least look how we want doing it.

 

 

 

Yeah the game that truly captures the popular essence of PvP is going to be huge.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

ugh Dust 514 looked so great until I realized it was PS3 only!! so stupid.

 

Well I got a PS3 so I´m fine with that

At least I heard rumors there might be a PC client at a later point. Right now it will only be a free DLC on PS3.

What´s great about the concept is connecting different platforms and totally different games taking place in the very same sandbox universe in realtime. This is mind boggling. I clearly see the future of gaming starting out there.

It might even be the future of TOR, of course with space. I so hope what they do will be a big cross server universe to explore and travel. In concept similiar to EvE, but with more action based "hands on combat".

Edited May 29, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[JimG]

There is no "right" answer because this stuff is all a matter of preference. You have some players who are all about end-game raiding, grinding out the best gear, open world PVP or whatever it may be, but those are players who like things that are "sandbox" features. You have other players who like story, enjoy the leveling process and building/learning their characters, alt-a-holics, etc. and they like things that are "theme park" features. This whole theme park vs. sandbox discussion has been going on since way before this game launched. SWTOR was never going to be a sandbox game, never attempted to be one and never advertised to be one. If someone loves sandbox games and came here wanting one, then they came to the wrong place. Yet, for some reason, people want to keep re-hashing this discussion as if it will change anything.

[Talarchy]

is that why every sandbox MMO fails miserably?

 

Starwars galaxies didn't fail miserably.

[DiabloDoom]

There is no "right" answer because this stuff is all a matter of preference. You have some players who are all about end-game raiding, grinding out the best gear, open world PVP or whatever it may be, but those are players who like things that are "sandbox" features. You have other players who like story, enjoy the leveling process and building/learning their characters, alt-a-holics, etc. and they like things that are "theme park" features. This whole theme park vs. sandbox discussion has been going on since way before this game launched. SWTOR was never going to be a sandbox game, never attempted to be one and never advertised to be one. If someone loves sandbox games and came here wanting one, then they came to the wrong place. Yet, for some reason, people want to keep re-hashing this discussion as if it will change anything.

 

End game "raids" (I assume that's a WOW term) and tiered gear doesn't belong in a sandbox. Players make their own gear.

[Talarchy]

End game "raids" (I assume that's a WOW term) and tiered gear doesn't belong in a sandbox. Players make their own gear.

 

Exactly... Crafting in SWTOR is pointless and boring. SWG there was a point to being a crafter, you made specialised gear for people, the tradeskills made sense...

 

argh it makes you angry just thinking about how badly they did this and how much money they spent not doing it right..

[TheAincient]

If you added sandbox elements then you would not drop high end gear in the raid you would drop rare crafting resources or components.

 

I remember how swg started to drop high end gear and how that caused a lot of trouble with the crafters.

[EcrirTwyLar]

Starwars galaxies didn't fail miserably.

 

Yes it did. However, it didn't fail because of it's sandbox elements. It failed because SOE couldn't fix their broken game. People just got tired of waiting for SOE to fix their game and left. Then you had the whole Jedi BS that ruined the economy and disrupted everyone's gameplay.

[toepick]

If you added sandbox elements then you would not drop high end gear in the raid you would drop rare crafting resources or components.

 

I remember how swg started to drop high end gear and how that caused a lot of trouble with the crafters.

 

Agreed.

 

SWG was fine as it was other than bugs..which were mostly livable. I liked that all classes were not equal; I loved the player run economy, I loved the resources. SOE just did a horrible job managing the game, eventually even admitting their mistake of implementing the NGE.

 

But the down fall started when they started to be more like wow. I even hated it when they put an auction house in the game.

 

ToR is cute, its okay..I don't hate it and I have even enjoyed it; but it feels more like a single player game to me. Its nothing like swg, which was a world you could truly live in.

[EcrirTwyLar]

If you added sandbox elements then you would not drop high end gear in the raid you would drop rare crafting resources or components.

 

I remember how swg started to drop high end gear and how that caused a lot of trouble with the crafters.

 

But the difference is in SWG crafting WAS a class. So if you made say Armorsmith useless because you could get better armor via a drop, you just made an entire class useless.

[ToEasy]

I think an mmo should have both in my opinion.

[EcrirTwyLar]

Agreed.

 

SWG was fine as it was other than bugs..which were mostly livable. I liked that all classes were not equal; I loved the player run economy, I loved the resources. SOE just did a horrible job managing the game, eventually even admitting their mistake of implementing the NGE.

 

But the down fall started when they started to be more like wow. I even hated it when they put an auction house in the game.

 

ToR is cute, its okay..I don't hate it and I have even enjoyed it; but it feels more like a single player game to me. Its nothing like swg, which was a world you could truly live in.

 

I don't think the bugs were livable at all. I had broken specials that were broke from release up until the cu or nge. There were also just stupid bugs that were annoying that SOE didn't fix. Remember how long it took them to fix the sitting bug? You could be sitting and suddenly you would slide across the room.

 

I'm not sure what you are talking about with the auction house. Maybe that is something after my time. But there was a galactic market or something like that from the beginning. But, you did also have player vendors.

 

I do agree that the environments were superior in SWG. You could be wandering through Tatooine and have a dust storm blow through. Stuff like that made you feel like you were in the movies. I think the whole SWG concept was far better than SWTOR. SOE/LA was just unable to pull it off well. I think the quality of SWTOR is better than SWG, but the concept isn't as good. I guess I'm saying that if I had a choice, I'd rather be playing a fixed SWG. But that isn't going to happen. So I'll stay here and enjoy this game and the positive elements it has.

[EzoEo]

Many sandbox MMOs are still going strong even though they have changed their subscription model in an effort to retain their existing players and entice new players to give their game a go.

Lord of the Rings Online, Age of Conan, World of Warcraft, and, in my opinion, the daddy of them all, Eve Online is still going strong

 

Age of Conan, Lord of the Rings Online are both theme park MMO and WoW is the largest theme park MMO there

 

Maybe I interuppted it wrong but none of them are sandbox games as their all level based design models. LOTRO does have other elements to such as rather usless player housing but Age of Conan is still as boring now as it 4 years ago.

 

Sandox games are very good if their done properly but eventually they get just as repetitive as themepark MMOs.

 

The right mixture of both is probably the best type of MMO.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

I think the whole SWG concept was far better than SWTOR. SOE/LA was just unable to pull it off well. I think the quality of SWTOR is better than SWG, but the concept isn't as good. I guess I'm saying that if I had a choice, I'd rather be playing a fixed SWG. But that isn't going to happen. So I'll stay here and enjoy this game and the positive elements it has.

 

great post, that is spot on...

Edited May 29, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Tiek]

players just need choices. i dont mean dialogue choices, i mean choices on how they want to play the game. its why they have walls around sandboxes. to be able to decide how you play, what you do, within a greater boundary, and not play a 'game on rails'.

[toepick]

.

 

I actually agree with you..I guess some of the bugs didn't bother me too much, like the sliding on the floor thing..it was annoying but not game breaking. But I think we both agree that SOE should have fixed the existing game instead of making it into a wow clone.

 

I could be wrong about the galactic market..I thought they added that later in the game tho (before the nge stuff). I remember you used to have to find the good stuff by visiting vendors/shops, word of mouth..going to coronet and watching the barker spam..haha.

[EcrirTwyLar]

I actually agree with you..I guess some of the bugs didn't bother me too much, like the sliding on the floor thing..it was annoying but not game breaking. But I think we both agree that SOE should have fixed the existing game instead of making it into a wow clone.

 

I could be wrong about the galactic market..I thought they added that later in the game tho (before the nge stuff). I remember you used to have to find the good stuff by visiting vendors/shops, word of mouth..going to coronet and watching the barker spam..haha.

 

Yeah, you would visit player vendors because that is where all the best gear was. Most of the best crafters had their vendors set up in their player cities.