Theme Park vs Sandbox, What Do The Players Think?

[Monave]

ITs funny to me to read these post from Pro-Sandboxers. ( l seem to enjoy sandbox elements alot).

 

Where were you guys before SWTOR was released? I remember so many discussion about this prior to Beta and it seemed that 90% of the post were anti-sandbox.

 

Back then it was all "sandbox games are terribad" or "theme park is the future".

 

If you defended any thing sandbox back then you got the hate stick. Now so many people have flipped the script.

 

Should have spoken up a year ago when we all knew this game would be themepark and there would not even be day/night cycles.

 

As you can see I didn't join until launch so I never visited the forums until I had some basic nooblet questions to ask after starting play.

 

For myself I like more sandbox features like we had in pre-NGE/CU SWG. Yes it was full of bugs (like rubberbanding) and flaws but I enjoyed it immensely while it lasted.

 

That sandbox setup is what brought 'life' to the game and made you a participant rather than a observer as you do in TOR. The stories are great, but at the same time, being scripted also makes one feel you are doing a interactive novel and are nothing more than an observer making small commentary on the story rather than a participant.

[kirorx]

As you can see I didn't join until launch so I never visited the forums until I had some basic nooblet questions to ask after starting play.

 

For myself I like more sandbox features like we had in pre-NGE/CU SWG. Yes it was full of bugs (like rubberbanding) and flaws but I enjoyed it immensely while it lasted.

 

That sandbox setup is what brought 'life' to the game and made you a participant rather than a observer as you do in TOR. The stories are great, but at the same time, being scripted also makes one feel you are doing a interactive novel and are nothing more than an observer making small commentary on the story rather than a participant.

 

I agree with you 100%.

[Kalfear]

What is a sandbox game?

 

 

SWTOR can certainly have:

 

A "Jump to Lightspeed" style expansion - I can't think of one reason why this couldn't be added (except for development cost).

 

A RvR system like the RvRvR system currently being added to Rift (again a supposed "themepark" game) or like the WvWvW system in GW2.

 

 

 

There's no reason a supposed "themepark" MMORPG (which in SWTORs case seems to mean a very static MMORPG with full voiced quests - not entirely sure why that's a "themepark"), can't have sandy features or even a sandy expansion.

 

Hmmmmm, how did RVR suddenly become Sandbox?

 

I swear people today dont know what sandbox definition is and just use it as a "keyword" or "FOTM Term".

 

RVR is not sandbox or themepark (though while I love RVR from DAoc (pre RAs)) its far more themepark then sandbox if you want to go that route.

 

JtLS, I at least can see why thats called sandbox even though you did have pre determined limits invovled.

 

But its to no avail any ways, this game will never become a sandbox game (the real definition or the false FOTM term being used on these forums). This is a themepark game that simply lacks socialization/interaction/community building content (and no of that required is sandbox btw).

 

As someone else said, if you want sand in this game, your going to be disappointed. Sandbox design doesnt do well in modern day MMO sales.

[Izorii]

I thought that I wanted a theme park MMO, with quests missions and objectives but I was wrong, I thought the missions would make a difference and change the world. But they can't because we all do the same missions. In a Sand Box I step into the work and then decided what I am going to do, with who and how. I play my character in a way I want to. Theme park area's have there place but to try and make an entire MMO theme park is insane and the more Zones which are theme parked the more areas people will never revist. You can make the best lv 1-10 zone ever but most players will spend only a few days there before they out level the zone and never return.

[Lunga]

My advice, patience. I know it's difficult for people to exhibit this virtue while paying for a game. But EvE and every other game that has had longevity were blessed with a community that gave the developers the proper amount of time to update and improve the game.

 

NO mmo comes out with 5 years of development under their belt. SWTOR concentrated on the story aspect first and foremost, something no other mmo does or has done. Does that mean that there won't be major content and feature improvements in the first year or two? Should everyone jump ship because it doesn't have feature X from game Y?

 

EvE and WoW have had almost a decade to improve and stuff the game full of content. But somehow, the mmo crowd (or a portion of it anyway) is holding new mmos to an impossible standard, as though SWTOR, GW2, TSW, Aion, Tera should automatically match or better games in terms of contents and features. It's the reason people are flaming almost all mmos from month 1. Give them feedback, yes, I'm not against people bemoaning features they desire, but give them some time. It's impossible to address all problems and requests in the first 6 months.

 

GW2 and TSW will suffer the same fate. Just watch. This is not a SWTOR exclusive problem. I'll pay for the game for 12 months at least. If within a year this game is not up to my standards, I'll move along. But for a 5 month old game, it's damn good.

 

Patience. That's all.

[Dezzi]

My advice, patience. I know it's difficult for people to exhibit this virtue while paying for a game. But EvE and every other game that has had longevity were blessed with a community that gave the developers the proper amount of time to update and improve the game.

 

NO mmo comes out with 5 years of development under their belt. SWTOR concentrated on the story aspect first and foremost, something no other mmo does or has done. Does that mean that there won't be major content and feature improvements in the first year or two? Should everyone jump ship because it doesn't have feature X from game Y?

 

EvE and WoW have had almost a decade to improve and stuff the game full of content. But somehow, the mmo crowd (or a portion of it anyway) is holding new mmos to an impossible standard, as though SWTOR, GW2, TSW, Aion, Tera should automatically match or better games in terms of contents and features. It's the reason people are flaming almost all mmos from month 1. Give them feedback, yes, I'm not against people bemoaning features they desire, but give them some time. It's impossible to address all problems and requests in the first 6 months.

 

GW2 and TSW will suffer the same fate. Just watch. This is not a SWTOR exclusive problem. I'll pay for the game for 12 months at least. If within a year this game is not up to my standards, I'll move along. But for a 5 month old game, it's damn good.

 

Patience. That's all.

 

You cannot lump GW2 in there. I may be biased, but the fact that GW2 is F2P lends the developers just a little bit more time before the tide of impatience sets in. Most of my impatience with SWTOR comes from the simple fact that I pay $15 /mo. for the privilege of waiting for the team to fix bugs, add features, and all around get the game up to snuff. If I wasn't paying monthly to be here (and I'm not after June), I would be far more forgiving.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Dezzi

[KodyPeralta]

Sandbox's, Those are the best. They allow players to play their own way, and do their own thing, instead of being lead around to do what the developers designed the player to do. If I remember, SW:TOR developers said that you can "Create your own legacy", that is true, but it is limited due to SW:TOR not being a sandbox MMO, because you are sharing the same legacy as all others. Take a trooper for example, you can build your troopers legacy up, go to different planets, make NPC enemies/allies, but it does not allow you to literately make your own, personalized, storyline because another trooper will be going through the same quest.

 

With a Sandbox MMO, (I'm going to use SWG as an example) there is a Legacy Quest line, and you can follow that through, but, you don't have to jump on the Legacy Quest right away, you can go to say, Corellia, first and explore there, and then go do the Legacy Quest line. Also with a Sandbox MMO (SWG as an example again) you can create your own legacy by exploring places, and then finding open places, barely inhabited by any players, and (In the case of SWG) set down a house and use it as your base of operations, decorating it the way you want, or using it to store all your junk . You can also do a sandbox game the way you want, because it does not corral you to one specific place or another, you have wide open space to explore and move around freely in.

 

This is what makes Sandbox MMOs great, because it literately allows the player to make their own legacy, their own storyline, and their own history. Once again, bouncing to SWG... SWG had a player-run economy, furthermore promoting the open-ness of a game, and allowing people to a chance to breath, and do things their own way.

 

Thanks for those of you who read this whole thing!

 

P.S. Who else here (besides me) thinks that George Lucas (or LA, or whoever controls the rules of Star Wars MMOs) will consider re-opening SWG?

[EcrirTwyLar]

Anyone that designs a game to be either is being daft IMO.

 

And decent game should be both.

 

This.

 

Unfortunately, I don't see much sand box in SWTOR.

[Lunga]

If SWTOR went F2P, would people praise that as a great progressive move, matching GW2s lead? Or would they scream from the rooftops "SEE!!! THE GAME IS DYING!!!" I would love to see all mmos follow GW2s model, or LotRO's model. But the vast majority are not. Is that the issue? The business model?

 

I dunno. Either way, GW2 will suffer the same criticisms, F2P or not.

[tolaf]

Sandbox's, Those are the best. They allow players to play their own way, and do their own thing, instead of being lead around to do what the developers designed the player to do. If I remember, SW:TOR developers said that you can "Create your own legacy", that is true, but it is limited due to SW:TOR not being a sandbox MMO, because you are sharing the same legacy as all others. Take a trooper for example, you can build your troopers legacy up, go to different planets, make NPC enemies/allies, but it does not allow you to literately make your own, personalized, storyline because another trooper will be going through the same quest.

 

With a Sandbox MMO, (I'm going to use SWG as an example) there is a Legacy Quest line, and you can follow that through, but, you don't have to jump on the Legacy Quest right away, you can go to say, Corellia, first and explore there, and then go do the Legacy Quest line. Also with a Sandbox MMO (SWG as an example again) you can create your own legacy by exploring places, and then finding open places, barely inhabited by any players, and (In the case of SWG) set down a house and use it as your base of operations, decorating it the way you want, or using it to store all your junk . You can also do a sandbox game the way you want, because it does not corral you to one specific place or another, you have wide open space to explore and move around freely in.

 

This is what makes Sandbox MMOs great, because it literately allows the player to make their own legacy, their own storyline, and their own history. Once again, bouncing to SWG... SWG had a player-run economy, furthermore promoting the open-ness of a game, and allowing people to a chance to breath, and do things their own way.

 

Thanks for those of you who read this whole thing!

 

P.S. Who else here (besides me) thinks that George Lucas (or LA, or whoever controls the rules of Star Wars MMOs) will consider re-opening SWG?

 

^This all the way.

Also i would pay so much money to play SWG again, it was my first MMO and will remain my favorite forever.

[EcrirTwyLar]

You cannot lump GW2 in there. I may be biased, but the fact that GW2 is F2P lends the developers just a little bit more time before the tide of impatience sets in. Most of my impatience with SWTOR comes from the simple fact that I pay $15 /mo. for the privilege of waiting for the team to fix bugs, add features, and all around get the game up to snuff. If I wasn't paying monthly to be here (and I'm not after June), I would be far more forgiving.

 

Oh brother. People keep talking about the $15/month like it's some big financial burden. You can't get hardly anything for $15 now days. Even a kid could probably go out and mow one lawn to pay for a month of game play.

[EcrirTwyLar]

P.S. Who else here (besides me) thinks that George Lucas (or LA, or whoever controls the rules of Star Wars MMOs) will consider re-opening SWG?

 

SWG was a great idea that just wasn't pulled off well by SOE. If a good company like Blizzard or Bioware were to try, I may give it a try. But I won't be playing another SOE game anytime soon.

[Finis]

Hmmmmm, how did RVR suddenly become Sandbox?

 

I swear people today dont know what sandbox definition is and just use it as a "keyword" or "FOTM Term".

 

RVR is not sandbox or themepark (though while I love RVR from DAoc (pre RAs)) its far more themepark then sandbox if you want to go that route.

 

JtLS, I at least can see why thats called sandbox even though you did have pre determined limits invovled.

 

But its to no avail any ways, this game will never become a sandbox game (the real definition or the false FOTM term being used on these forums). This is a themepark game that simply lacks socialization/interaction/community building content (and no of that required is sandbox btw).

 

As someone else said, if you want sand in this game, your going to be disappointed. Sandbox design doesnt do well in modern day MMO sales.

 

This is me this last couple of weeks.

 

"da*** did i just read? do these people even know what a sandbox game is?"

 

People keep using EQ as an example of a sandbox game.... No, it really, really wasn't - and isn't. The current incarnation is much more theme parky. Because that's what most people want.

 

SWG, pre-CU was a sandbox(ish) game. UO was a sandbox(ish) game. EVE is a sandbox game.

 

Minecraft, is the very definition of a sandbox game. There's even a Star Wars mod for it. Go play that

 

Or Second Life. Go buy some Star Wars textures/meshes and have a ball. I'm sure somewhere, someone on Second Life has created a Star Wars area.

 

DikuMUD style gameplay: EQ, EQ II, LotRO, WoW, DAoC, WAR, DDO, and all of those are NOT sandbox games. They are DikuMUD style games. They have zones, with mobs (Short for 'Mobile' a MUD term, ever wonder where the term 'mobs' came from? Now you know. MOBile Object Code) to kill that drop stuff and give xp. You take the stuff and xp, which lets you kill harder, more challenging Mobiles, which in turn give you more stuff, and more xp to kill harder Mobiles, etc, etc, until you hit the wall where the devs stopping coding Mobiles and there's nothing left. Typically, each zone has it's own flavor and theme of Mobiles, some of which are attached to NPC given, pre-written lists of tasks ("Quests/Missions") This is the very essence of "theme-park" Game Design. It's like Disneyland. Tomorrowland, Adventureland, etc. It's just called Coruscant or Tatooine here. This is where the monkier of 'theme-park' derives from. Pre-designed, pre-written areas to explore, with a given theme.

 

Some of them have certain Sandboxy elements, like player housing. Look how well open world housing worked out for SWG and UO. I remember camping a spot with a deed on UO, trying to get a spot to place it, do you? Not Fun. Endless ghost-towns in SWG. Good times. Do I want player housing in SWTOR, Yes. But something like EQ II. instanced, so it doesn't clutter up the landscape. Ship decorating and personalizing is a great place to start. Then maybe instanced apartments on Coruscant and Kaas City. Instanced Plantary Guild Halls would be epic. Land on a hidden moon (known only to the members of your guild) and get your secret moon base. Epic. Especially if the implementation is something like Base Construction on CoH (another well-done theme park setting.) But I'm patient. I'll wait for it to be done right. not demanding half-assed hurried implementation.

 

People want minigames, Pazzak tables, swoop racing, off-the-rails space combat, spectator viewable Huttball leagues. Those things are great, I want some of that stuff too. But they are not sandbox game elements. They are minigames. Pre-scripted, pre-coded, boxed for your enjoyment. Probably placed in a zone that shares a similiar theme. (Like a Casino/Cantina). Just like an Arcade in Disneyland. Games within the game.

 

Every other example of 'sandbox' style game play I've seen peopel propose in these threads is not "sandbox" at all, it's another flavor of theme park deign. Usually older, out-dated design; desired out of nostalgia, not because it's good design.

 

Much of this is semantics, I know, but it's really starting to bother me. Most of you 'sandbox' camp people don't want sandbox stuff. you want more rides in your theme park. Which is great. I like rides too. but don't pretend that they are anything more than that.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Finis

[Dezzi]

If SWTOR went F2P, would people praise that as a great progressive move, matching GW2s lead? Or would they scream from the rooftops "SEE!!! THE GAME IS DYING!!!" I would love to see all mmos follow GW2s model, or LotRO's model. But the vast majority are not. Is that the issue? The business model?

 

I dunno. Either way, GW2 will suffer the same criticisms, F2P or not.

 

The model isn't the issue; the recent trend is that F2P games that rely solely on convenience and vanity items in their cash shops have seen success. CO, DCUO, STO, PotBS, etc. Some of these games also offer players an opportunity to subscribe for added convenience (items in cash shops become cheaper or are given free). So having said that, the stigma associated with F2P is the problem.

 

Many people still think that F2P means P2W, which of course isn't the case. Still, they go on believing that the old days of Korean grindfest MMOs with P2W items in cash shops is the rule--as opposed to the exception.

 

If SWTOR went F2P, adopting a model similar to GW2s, I think you would see an increase of population (which would ultimately taper off), but the game would have much more time to develop, and the community and press would invariably become more forgiving of the hiccups. Why? Because if you're unhappy, you're not out a two-three months of paid game time by the time you realize the game isn't for you--or not where you expected it to be yet; you leave and come back at will.

[Dezzi]

Oh brother. People keep talking about the $15/month like it's some big financial burden. You can't get hardly anything for $15 now days. Even a kid could probably go out and mow one lawn to pay for a month of game play.

 

Oh brother...

It's not about cost, it's about value.

 

It can certainly be argued that your $15 buys you more in WoW than it does here in SWTOR. Why? Quantity of content, quality of content and features, stable server populations, accessible convenience features, etc.

 

This says nothing of the fact that everyone values their money--and their hobbies--differently. Using my WoW example, I would much rather save my $15 than take it to WoW if it was my only choice.

[Lunga]

I don't disagree. So then the issue with SWTOR isn't that it's a bad game, but that people would be much more forgiving if they didn't have to pay a sub for it. And it also does away with the themepark vs sandbox argument, since obviously the issue isn't with the design of the game so much as the time it will take to get it developed to an "acceptable" level.

 

I think there's enough in SWTOR for me to pay a sub. Talk to me in a year, and if the major improvements that need to be made have not been made, we can revisit the discussion then.

[Dezzi]

I don't disagree. So then the issue with SWTOR isn't that it's a bad game, but that people would be much more forgiving if they didn't have to pay a sub for it. And it also does away with the themepark vs sandbox argument, since obviously the issue isn't with the design of the game so much as the time it will take to get it developed to an "acceptable" level.

 

I think there's enough in SWTOR for me to pay a sub. Talk to me in a year, and if the major improvements that need to be made have not been made, we can revisit the discussion then.

 

It wouldn't matter if SWTOR is/was a bad game or not--if it were F2P--because you wouldn't be tied to the game monetarily, beyond the initial purchase. But as it is, SWTOR is not F2P so my opinion of the game has to factor in the value of my subscription as it relates to the overall quality of the game; if other games provide more bang for the buck, why would I stay here? That's all I'm suggesting.

 

Suddenly it does matter if SWTOR is a "bad" game.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Dezzi

[gurugeorge]

I have seen many posts regarding this subject and the pros and cons of each but I would like to get a feel for what the players really want.

MMO developers seem to think that sandbox is now a niche area and theme park is the way to go.

Many sandbox MMOs are still going strong even though they have changed their subscription model in an effort to retain their existing players and entice new players to give their game a go.

Lord of the Rings Online, Age of Conan, World of Warcraft, and, in my opinion, the daddy of them all, Eve Online is still going strong. I have returned to Eve twice over the years and recall the newbie chat channel and the opening channel after that is full of constant chatter which is what gives it its name Massive that it deserves.

And of course, take a look at the fourth coming Guild Wars 2. The devs have decided to change course from the famously heavily instanced original Guild Wars, although extremely popular, to a more open sandbox world, going completely against the grain of what the gaming masses are supposed to enjoy the most.

It is a matter of opinion but for me, when GW2 is released, that is where I will be going because I believe that heavy instancing takes the massively out of the game thus demeaning its goal.

Having said that, I still dont know what the majority of the MMO fraternity think and want.

So maybe we can find out from this post whether or not the devs took the right direction and so will keep their players for many years to come or will they leave en masse to return to the sandbox idea that the MMO genre originally embraced?

 

You do need a bit of both, but I would say an MMORPG has to be weighted more towards sandbox, and especially the longer it goes on and the more mature it gets.

 

IOW, the themepark element ought to be thought of as the "backbone" of the game, something to get people up and running, get them immersed a bit, let them learn builds, etc. But the main content has to be content that people make for themselves by their interaction - and I don't mean just PvP, but crafting, PvE, etc., etc.

Edited May 17, 2012 by gurugeorge

[Darth_Moonshadow]

P.S. Who else here (besides me) thinks that George Lucas (or LA, or whoever controls the rules of Star Wars MMOs) will consider re-opening SWG?

 

Depends on which Galaxies gets reopened. Pre-CU and NGE or post? Because if it's post-CU and NGE, I'll be here, playing a game I actually enjoy rather than that trainwreck of an experience.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

The way it looks, TOR marks the end of the pure classic corridor / themepark MMOs.

 

There is none coming out which sticks to that concept anymore.

 

- Elder Scrolls WILL need and have some sandbox type features for sure

- The Secret World has class free skill based progression, sandbox type crafting, open realistic environments

- Guild Wars 2 has dynamic events, changing villages, open world feel

- Tera has open world seemless feel, will get housing

- ArcheAge seems to become the most sandbox type MMO on the horizon

- The Repopulation, also sandbox with housing

Edited May 17, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[mattgyver]

I personally don't need to be married to some semantic description. The features I would like, and that I think would add to the game for others would be:

 

-Open worlds that have random spawns (location, type of mob, and level of mob) + mission terms (PvP & PvE)

-Loot Tables that are rotated, randomized, and have some chance to drop weird collectible pieces like parts to build a blaster rifle, or parts to build a console to put in your ship. Or parts to build a new ship. I'm talking about stupid big loot tables. However vast you are thinking, think bigger.

-Open worlds without exhaustion zones, and terrain features instead of just a skybox.

-Crafting mats that have qualities so that higher quality Plasmoblat produces a better Blaster Barrel.

-Open 3d Space with more than 1 ship per class (or .50 if youre a consular/jedi or inquisitor/warrior)

-PvP & PvE warfare that matters on a galactic scale (who controls Corellia atm?)

-Systems that are easy to use but hard to master (or simply add depth): Stat modding in different combinations at endgame. Modding speeders for performance vs. armor.

 

 

Fluff

-Day/Night Cycle

-Sitting down in public places

-More player races

-Star Wars music, and graphics (no more knights of the old foppish shoulder pads)

-minigames

-Furniture and decorations for your ship (or house would be better)

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

I personally don't need to be married to some semantic description. The features I would like, and that I think would add to the game for others would be:

 

-Open worlds that have random spawns (location, type of mob, and level of mob) + mission terms (PvP & PvE)

-Loot Tables that are rotated, randomized, and have some chance to drop weird collectible pieces like parts to build a blaster rifle, or parts to build a console to put in your ship. Or parts to build a new ship. I'm talking about stupid big loot tables. However vast you are thinking, think bigger.

-Open worlds without exhaustion zones, and terrain features instead of just a skybox.

-Crafting mats that have qualities so that higher quality Plasmoblat produces a better Blaster Barrel.

-Open 3d Space with more than 1 ship per class (or .50 if youre a consular/jedi or inquisitor/warrior)

-PvP & PvE warfare that matters on a galactic scale (who controls Corellia atm?)

-Systems that are easy to use but hard to master (or simply add depth): Stat modding in different combinations at endgame. Modding speeders for performance vs. armor.

 

 

Fluff

-Day/Night Cycle

-Sitting down in public places

-More player races

-Star Wars music, and graphics (no more knights of the old foppish shoulder pads)

-minigames

-Furniture and decorations for your ship (or house would be better)

 

agree on that, all of the above would be awesome and finally add sone real fun to the game

[Monave]

Depends on which Galaxies gets reopened. Pre-CU and NGE or post? Because if it's post-CU and NGE, I'll be here, playing a game I actually enjoy rather than that trainwreck of an experience.

 

^^ This but I will not be playing TOR either. I'll just probably play Hearts of Iron 2 or some other older game on my shelf.

 

Post-CU/NGE is not even SWG IMHO...

[Lu_Bei]

Anyone that designs a game to be either is being daft IMO.

 

And decent game should be both.

/signed

 

But this game is 99% theme park.

[Goretzu]

We are talking about MMOs here, by the way, not every game that has a multiplayer facet to it.

 

PvPers are a minority in MMOs. Period. They are, however, (as you have proven) very loud. Also, just to be clear, everyone who does PvP in an MMO is not a PvPer. When I say PvPer, I mean dedicated PvPers. Few fall into that category.

 

Sandbox is sandbox, just like PvP is PvP. Because MMORPGs may not have managed to tap it well yet, doesn't mean the market doesn't exist, nor that is isn't a huge market.

 

PvP gaming is THE biggest population pool on the internet, MMORPGs haven't fully tapped that market either (things like RvRvR have the chance to move that direction though).

 

 

But either way it's Sandbox features that keep people interested for long periods, Themepark PvE just results in less than 50% retention of inital sales within 2 months (as we've seen with SWTOR), about the only Themepark PvE MMORPG to break this was the orginal, WoW (LOTRO did well for a while too, but had a very strong IP and development theme).