Theme Park vs Sandbox, What Do The Players Think?

[Goretzu]

SWTOR will never be a sandbox, it's not how the game is designed (story driven). They can however add features that give people a wider choice in variation, or extend existing features (like legacy, crafting)

 

It'll never be a themepark either, the only themepark video game was rollercoaster tycoon.

 

I can't ever remember going to a themepark to be told a story for that matter either..... maybe it's an "interactive movie" (remember those! ) MMORPG?

 

But it can easily be a MMORPG with sandy features (especially an space content), and if Bioware EA want to retain as many subscribers as they can, they need to start adding those features ASAP.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Goretzu

[mattgyver]

1) fully agree

2) This isn't necessarily so and here you disagree with your previous statement. The Rakghoul plague event was something they added that wasn't half baked, and worked great. They showed that they can add things that are interesting and fun. Given a new planet and a different approach, I think that the Design Team could make a great place to fight, harvest, build, and adventure.

3) This game would have to be long dead and gone before anybody makes another SW MMO. If that happened I doubt it would be BW making it.

 

 

Yes I agree the Rakghoul event was a nice touch they did there. I hope we see more of these types of events which help with the emmersion. I guess I meant that it would seem easier to add theme park elements to a sandbox than vice versa but then again I'm not a designer so it's just speculation on my part.

 

Yes and sadly it will be a looong time before we see another SW MMO...but we can always hope!

 

Oh I see, yeah I agree about the theme park added to sandbox versus the other way.

[Newsinz]

Which themepark MMORPGs have "succeeded massively"? (besides WoW - and frankly I wouldn't call WoW purely themepark anyway)

 

I know a lot of haters will say it didn't succeed but SWG is a big one that comes to mind. It was around for a long time. The reason it failed was not the game it was the Devs.

 

Eve.

[Hambunctious]

A small number of us in closed beta tried to tell them that having such a strict linear system was a bad idea. It might have been okay just for leveling, but post 50 there would be problems.

 

They needed some sandbox planets for all characters, with a lot of non-combat activities, and expanded crafting for sure. Not just for gear, and potions.

 

Player cities, housing, gambling, and true 3D space would renew my interest. They could also use something like the GCW from SWG, with the same kind of non-combat interactions featured in that. Building defenses, patrols, turrets, etc.

[Goretzu]

I know a lot of haters will say it didn't succeed but SWG is a big one that comes to mind. It was around for a long time. The reason it failed was not the game it was the Devs.

 

Eve.

 

Yeah, I'd certainly call SWG a success in the terms of sales at the time and sustained sub number (again for the time) for the first 2 years, it struggled after that, but as much because it lost its development path as anything else.

 

 

A small number of us in closed beta tried to tell them that having such a strict linear system was a bad idea. It might have been okay just for leveling, but post 50 there would be problems.

 

They needed some sandbox planets for all characters, with a lot of non-combat activities, and expanded crafting for sure. Not just for gear, and potions.

 

Player cities, housing, gambling, and true 3D space would renew my interest. They could also use something like the GCW from SWG, with the same kind of non-combat interactions featured in that. Building defenses, patrols, turrets, etc.

 

All of this would add greatly to the current game.

 

In fairness stuff like a genuine space expansion isn't going to happen tomorrow (or even this year most likely), but even an indication it was on the cards would help.

[mattgyver]

They are working on it, they have said as much. If they don't have it ready within the year, well. Yeah ...

[DarthZaul]

I think theme park MMOs is a dead end.

 

True "next-generation" game should be a neat mix of both theme park and sandbox.

 

This.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

They are working on it, they have said as much. If they don't have it ready within the year, well. Yeah ...

 

What, on sandbox features? Really? That would be great.. Care to share a link?

[mattgyver]

What, on sandbox features? Really? That would be great.. Care to share a link?

 

No sorry friend, I was responding to someone saying that they felt true 3d space wasn't coming for a long time. No word on sandbox, but I asked about it in Q&A (there was a sucking sound as that question surely went into the void). BTW I saw you unsubbed in that thread

I will keep up the fight in your absence.

[LilSaihah]

I think that taking the themepark to the extreme is a fundamentally flawed idea in an MMO. Most functions of the themepark aim to close off the game to allow smaller groups to participate, until we eventually reach what TOR has produced- a game in which most of the content would be better facilitated by a single-player game. The goal should be to broaden the world and mitigate the systemic roadblocks that prevent people from interacting organically.

 

That's not to say TOR is a bad game; it's a good game, but in the wrong genre. If development were directed to make it a single-player game with co-op for small group content with the potential for some persistent world elements, a more Neverwinter Nights styled experience, then I feel the game would be much better off.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

No sorry friend, I was responding to someone saying that they felt true 3d space wasn't coming for a long time. No word on sandbox, but I asked about it in Q&A (there was a sucking sound as that question surely went into the void). BTW I saw you unsubbed in that thread

I will keep up the fight in your absence.

 

oh I see.. too bad.

Well I´ll be back when they fix the population problems, add space combat and less linear quests. It´s not a bad game, just.. too early for me-

In the meantime, until some TOR 2.0 version I got myself a pre-order for lifetime sub on The Secret World, I´m already completely sold on the beta. Truly amazing mystery game and so much different than any other MMO. Just my cup of tea. And the crafting is very SWG like.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Goretzu]

They are working on it, they have said as much. If they don't have it ready within the year, well. Yeah ...

 

I think they'll have some sort of space improvement in within the next few months, but I don't think it'll be more than at best off-the-rail missions (and maybe just more missions on-the-rail).

 

As much as I'd like to see a proper space expansion, it will take a lot of development, so unless they've been working on it for a good year or so in secret, it'll be a while coming even if they devote massive resources to it today.

 

Although on the upside it would seem from what they've said that they've recognised the value of such a thing to a lot of players.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Goretzu

[BlueFromMoon]

Titan is the future, as other developers just keep failing. I think Elder Scroll Online has a last chance before Titan takes over, if anything Elder Scroll could do it. This genre is just too deep for their small brains.

 

 

TOO NARROW MINDED! FREE YOUR MIND!

Edited May 14, 2012 by BlueFromMoon

[redsovereign]

oh I see.. too bad.

Well I´ll be back when they fix the population problems, add space combat and less linear quests. It´s not a bad game, just.. too early for me-

In the meantime, until some TOR 2.0 version I got myself a pre-order for lifetime sub on The Secret World, I´m already completely sold on the beta. Truly amazing mystery game and so much different than any other MMO. Just my cup of tea. And the crafting is very SWG like.

 

Not to be a hater but how can you pay a preorder when you don't even know if the game will be successful or not?

What if it fails in a half a year after release because of bad development and lack of customer base? With all the mmorpg games that have come out lately and not done well shouldn't you be a little wary before you throw out that amount of money on a mmorpg which is dependant on ppl paying for it?

 

I never understood religious mmorpg fans. You pay a life time sub for one game then you hate on it, move on to the next game and pay a preorder sub for that as well which also fails.

 

Not saying secret world will fail but the thing is only a handful of mmorpgs have done really well and been able to evolve/adapt to the market from year to year.

[Monave]

Not to be a hater but how can you pay a preorder when you don't even know if the game will be successful or not?

What if it fails in a half a year after release because of bad development and lack of customer base? With all the mmorpg games that have come out lately and not done well shouldn't you be a little wary before you throw out that amount of money on a mmorpg which is dependant on ppl paying for it?

 

I never understood religious mmorpg fans. You pay a life time sub for one game then you hate on it, move on to the next game and pay a preorder sub for that as well which also fails.

 

Not saying secret world will fail but the thing is only a handful of mmorpgs have done really well and been able to evolve/adapt to the market from year to year.

 

This is why I have NEVER preordered, got the collector's edition, or bought anything longer than a month to month sub for ANY MMO.

[Dext]

I would like to see a 50/50 balance with Theme Park and Sandbox.

[Darth_Moonshadow]

Titan is the future, as other developers just keep failing. I think Elder Scroll Online has a last chance before Titan takes over, if anything Elder Scroll could do it. This genre is just too deep for their small brains.

 

 

TOO NARROW MINDED! FREE YOUR MIND!

 

Titan is rumored to be a FPS, so I'd hold off on it till after the CoD fans have left the game.

[Brimmer]

Theme park while leveling, and sandbox for endgame

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Not to be a hater but how can you pay a preorder when you don't even know if the game will be successful or not?

What if it fails in a half a year after release because of bad development and lack of customer base? With all the mmorpg games that have come out lately and not done well shouldn't you be a little wary before you throw out that amount of money on a mmorpg which is dependant on ppl paying for it?

 

I never understood religious mmorpg fans. You pay a life time sub for one game then you hate on it, move on to the next game and pay a preorder sub for that as well which also fails.

 

Not saying secret world will fail but the thing is only a handful of mmorpgs have done really well and been able to evolve/adapt to the market from year to year.

 

Oh, I wish I could explain it, but this... simply can´t fail. And my liftetime sub is my personal bet on this title.

It´s amazing in so many ways that I couldn´t resist. I´m basically coming from classic LucasArts adventure games like "Zak McKraken" or "Grim Fandango". Also loved later games with an adventure touch like "Alan Wake".

And.. "The Longest Journey".. by Tornquist who now did "Secret World".

 

But, I also loved SWG and the massive multiplayer component.

 

Now you know why I´m overly excited about TSW and threw my money at them after the beta:

It´s a deep mystery-adventure-puzzle-contemporary-MMO with sandbox type crafting and sandbox type skill progression. No classes. No levels. Fashion is purely cosmetic. You apply talismans, rings, belts, holy ashes.. that´s your gear. Plus swords, magic.. and guns.

The setting is pretty scary and the atmosphere feels very alive and deep. Feels like the movie "Seven".

Or the "X-Files".

I love finding handdrawn notes like “The white ravens whisper, golden girls sorrowful stories are never told” and go figure what to do with that And no map pointer shows you where to solve this. It´s basically a Dan Brown/Stephen King MMO

[Monave]

All I know is that if they incorporate some good sandbox elements to complement the Theme Park, I will undoubtedly be back for more TOR.

[redsovereign]

I would like to see a 50/50 balance with Theme Park and Sandbox.

 

Unfortunately I think sandbox as a succesful business model is dead. This generation is so used to the WoW standard and there is a reason that all game developers follow this idea, it is not just out of laziness but that the WOW model is indeed a very good model.

It improved and finetuned the older sandbox-esque mmorpg games that some of us grew up with that had a lot of unfun mechanics and were plagued by bad design desicions. Make no mistake I love sandbox styled mmorpg but I am just that, an older player who have a lot of nostalgia for the older types of mmorpg games but when I look back at them I am thankfun that Blizzard came about and made the MMORPG genre into something better.

 

The two MMORPGs I've played the most have been EvE and City of Heroes/Villains but If WoW was my first mmorpg ever I very likely would have been of the opinion that every mmorpg should be like that as well.

 

I think the problem is more that everything nowadays seem to be centered about mmorpg gaming while they could just as well do more games like D3 which has online features and COOP style of games. For some reason companise HAS to do MMorpgs which is pointless since there has to be a point in making your game into a MMORPG.

 

Mmorpgs is awesome for some types of storytelling but your game idea has to be fit for a mmorpg enviroment. Elder scrolls online sounds like a typically bad idea because a big reason to why the elderscrolls games is fun is because they are broken in a very specific fun way.

Remember in morrowind where you could create potions that made your character jump over the whole continent? Or do potions that added so much to a stat that the stat number went to minus? Like you had so much strenght taht one hit with a weapon broke it.

You could never do this in a MMORPG and that is just hte problem, mmorpg has to be balanced out = no creativity = no fun broken mechanics.

 

A MMORPG stamp just doesn't mean a better game.

[BlueFromMoon]

Titan is rumored to be a FPS, so I'd hold off on it till after the CoD fans have left the game.

 

No, it was revealed early this year FPS was only a rumor indeed. Just unbelievable how Blizzard just got them by the balls.

Edited May 14, 2012 by BlueFromMoon

[Darth_Moonshadow]

No, it was revealed early this year FPS was only a rumor indeed. Just unbelievable how Blizzard just got them by the balls.

 

Eh I'm still reserving judgement. I'll wait till the first few months after launch before I start saving up. Though chances are, I'd just drop it for Fallout Online.

[redsovereign]

Oh, I wish I could explain it, but this... simply can´t fail. And my liftetime sub is my personal bet on this title.

It´s amazing in so many ways that I couldn´t resist. I´m basically coming from classic LucasArts adventure games like "Zak McKraken" or "Grim Fandango". Also loved later games with an adventure touch like "Alan Wake".

And.. "The Longest Journey".. by Tornquist who now did "Secret World".

 

But, I also loved SWG and the massive multiplayer component.

 

Now you know why I´m overly excited about TSW and threw my money at them after the beta:

It´s a deep mystery-adventure-puzzle-contemporary-MMO with sandbox type crafting and sandbox type skill progression. No classes. No levels. Fashion is purely cosmetic. You apply talismans, rings, belts, holy ashes.. that´s your gear. Plus swords, magic.. and guns.

The setting is pretty scary and the atmosphere feels very alive and deep. Feels like the movie "Seven".

Or the "X-Files".

I love finding handdrawn notes like “The white ravens whisper, golden girls sorrowful stories are never told” and go figure what to do with that And no map pointer shows you where to solve this. It´s basically a Dan Brown/Stephen King MMO

 

You mean like how ToR (while not failing) isn't doing so good? You mean like how DCUO failed while it had a lot of potential? You mean like how CoX never was succesful in the big market or how Tera only caters to anime lovers?

 

Just because you love certain aspects of a game doesn't mean it will prosper. The Secret World is a niche game, niche games will always have their own market (like CoX, EvE, AO) but they do not very often get into the big market. What does this mean for a MMORPG ? It means that it will have its loyal followers but it will never be a big MMORPG and while that never annoys me personally because I like playing around by myself in a digital world the world will indeed be empty of people.

 

At this moment the only one game that has such a big fanbase is WoW and so will D3 as well when it comes out tonight. Look I'm not a fanboy of WoW or a hater of other mmorpgs I just get a little concerned when ppl talk about games like "messiahs" that will break the mold and destroy everything in its path.

It's nice that you have found a game that you love but right now in this time of gaming be a little careful before you blow so much money on a game that needs a constant income of money to exist.

 

Remember the myst mmorpg? Well that was also puzzly and deep, it was in fact so deep that it didn't do well because the market wasn't ready for taht type of game. It's cool that we have some games that try to be innovative but mmorpgs that doesn't make it at least semi big do not survive. This business is survival of the fittest.

 

Not trying to stomp your passion for the game in the ground just giving you a word of caution. Try games out and enjoy them for what is worth but don't believe that one game will live up to your hypes. Trends come and go.

To believe that a single game will be messiah is a very religious fanatic way to experience gaming and path that almost always lead to dissapointment.

Edited May 14, 2012 by redsovereign

[Jydradi]

TLDR version: WoW doesn't have sandboxes because it doesn't want you to feel too important. SWTOR wants you to feel center stage, so it should have some sandbox elements.

 

SWTOR is the successor to SWG. That may not have been Bioware's intention, but that's reality. This is true just as surely as the fact that we're living in a post WoW world and that means certain things are expected as standard.

 

Bioware has recognized the later, and adapted their game design beautifully, but until they recognize the former and incorporate at least SOME of the sandbox elements, SWTOR will never reach it's full potential.

 

Blizzard ignores the sandbox completely, which works for their game because their world setting is a light hearted parody of an overly grim world which is itself a ham-fisted fantasy noire parody of Lord of the Rings. It works for WoW because with all it's humor, pop culture references and self aggrandizing, the player is assured that ultimately he or she is a small drop in a big bucket. In WoW the player is constantly reminded that the main characters in that world are the big, bad named NPCs, and the player will ALWAYS play second fiddle to Blizzard's pet characters. Even when the players beat the game's final bosses, after the fight you get a cinematic showing how Blizzard's pet NPC came in and saved everybody at the last second. So from the very beginning, in WoW, the player has and is given no expectation to be able to affect the world in any way.

 

SWTOR however, handles players in the opposite fashion. Right from the get go we are made to feel like the center stage. The universe needs heroes and it's up to us. On the trek to Chapter 4 we even destroy/upstage almost all of the world's biggest players. We are the stars of this show and we are meant to truly feel like it.

 

That's why we need at least some kind of sandbox, even if it's just the ability to decorate the inside of our ship. The feel the game tries to impart to the player, of being in control, the hero, the centerpiece stands at stark odds with the distant way we interact at arm's length with the world we're in.

 

Personally, I'd love to see (and would pay full price for) a pure sandbox expansion. Three planets (I'll explain why three in more detail in a different post) with districts or zones that phase according to the player or guild's presence (in the same way ships and story areas do now). That kind of thing would be incredible.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Jydradi