Theme Park vs Sandbox, What Do The Players Think?

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

i agree, i always feel that the devs took the path of least resistance with regard to the production of the game, i wish more love was put in to the gameplay features .... but its not too late

 

absolute truth.. least resistance game design everywhere, besides the class stories and the voiceacting, the feeling of half finished, lazy game design all over the place - planet designs, graphics technologies, interactivity and immersion in the world - feels all totally unmotivated, like "let´s finish this stuff off somehow for an early release"

Edited April 29, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Goretzu]

of course i do

 

http://rubenfield.com/?p=86

 

from a developer who worked on the game

 

 

That still says SWG had 200,000 subs well after WoW was released BTW.

[mattgyver]

I think the build release of this game has essentially become NGE 2.0. The bright side is it can be an inverted NGE with the game potentially actually becoming stronger as it develops. I can imagine that over time, the big expectation crush will yield fruit in that people may return or stay on because SWTOR has so much room for improvement.

 

The key though is to actually add meat to the game, add complexity so that players can stay engaged. The game must evolve to be competitive.

[Goretzu]

I think the build release of this game has essentially become NGE 2.0. The bright side is it can be an inverted NGE with the game potentially actually becoming stronger as it develops. I can imagine that over time, the big expectation crush will yield fruit in that people may return or stay on because SWTOR has so much room for improvement.

 

The key though is to actually add meat to the game, add complexity so that players can stay engaged. The game must evolve to be competitive.

 

It may well be the inevitable course is sort of the opposite to which SWG took.

[ConradLionhart]

Sandbox sounds good. Keyword: sounds. But as of right now, it is only a niche market. The most successful MMO is a theme park.

 

If you want SW:TOR to take a chance with sandbox, it will have to be in space.

Edited May 1, 2012 by ConradLionhart

[Goretzu]

Sandbox sounds good. Keyword: sounds. But as of right now, it is only a niche market. The most successful MMO is a theme park.

 

If you want SW:TOR to take a chance with sandbox, it will have to be in space.

 

 

It's no more niche than PvP - PvP, i.e. the type of gameplay that is most played on the internet.

 

Sandy features could easily be added to the current ground game, the right ones well implimented would be popular, the wrong ones badly implimented would not.... this is no different from supposed "themepark" features.

 

Indeed what are the "sandbox" features you'd expect to see in SWTORs space?

 

 

 

Just because WoW doesn't have something it doesn't therefore make it niche, it just makes it something WoW doesn't have.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Goretzu

[Rammur]

sandbox games are set and preferred for smaller playerbases what makes them so nice too many mainstream kids who came to mmos who came from console games who just dont understand the immersion behind a mmo which is normally the sandboxness.

[ConradLionhart]

It's no more niche than PvP - Pv, i.e. the type of game that is most played on the internet.

 

Sandy features could easily be added to the current ground game, the right ones well implimented would be popular, the wrong ones badly implimented would not.... this is no different from supposed "themepark" features.

 

Indeed what are the "sandbox" features you'd expect to see in SWTORs space?

 

 

 

Just because WoW doesn't have something it doesn't therefore make it niche, it just makes it something WoW doesn't have.

 

In the decades of MMO, sandbox MMOs are successful, but no where near 10 million subs. Eve Online, not even sure if they have 1 million accounts.

 

Despite sandbox being a different market to WoW and thus, not competing directly with it, no sandbox MMO I know of is even half as successful. The more successful ones are all themepark MMOs. Sandbox only caters to a niche market.

 

I say space because it is an undeveloped mini game that can be added to the game gradually. For the rest of the game, adding sandbox elements would require working from the ground up and would be difficult to change.

Edited May 1, 2012 by ConradLionhart

[Gradivus]

My preference:

MMOs - themepark (AoC, SWTOR).

FPS games - sandbox (ArmA, BF (though BF is in the middle))

RPGs - both (TES, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Arcanum).

[Goretzu]

In the decades of MMO, sandbox MMOs are successful, but no where near 10 million subs. Eve Online, not even sure if they have 1 million accounts.

 

Despite sandbox being a different market to WoW and thus, not competing directly with it, no sandbox MMO I know of is even half as successful. The more successful ones are all themepark MMOs. Sandbox only caters to a niche market.

 

I say space because it is an undeveloped mini game that can be added to the game gradually. For the rest of the game, adding sandbox elements would require working from the ground up and would be difficult to change.

 

 

 

 

In the decades of MMORPGs only ONE western MMORPG has been anywhere near 10,000,000 subs.

 

Every other MMORPG "themepark" or "sandbox" has failed by that standard - which therefore, by your logic, means Themepark MMORPGs are a niche failure!

 

If you take WoW out of the equation then subs-wise "themepark" and "sandbox" MMORPGs have been similarly successful or unsuccesful.

 

 

 

 

Also what "sandbox" elements do you mean for space combat...... adding "something" is a meaningless statement.

[Nippon]

It depends what you define as sandbox....

 

For me Sandbox is an engaging and evolving crafting system, same as SWG's

Being able to decorate your ship, how you like.

Not being railed in areas you travel, actual exploration.

Having Non-Combat classes (Entertainer SWG) to create a side of the game that is desperately missing, A social side, That maybe provides player buffs (same as SWG) this would take 10-15 minutes, which actually gets players socializing in an area and chatting. This requires...

Chat Bubbles

 

Being able to craft and make Clothing, Armour's, that players can use to change there appearance without jumping through hoops to do it. These items would be Guaranteed an augment slot...

Get rid of Raid Armour, make the Columi/Rakata/Campaign Mods Armourings Enhancements as Clothing / Armour attachments. As opposed to pieces.

 

Ive said it before and il say it again, SWG was run by a useless company and had its faults, but it also had dome brilliant bits and one of them was how it merged Sandbox / Themepark. Slate SWG all you like, end of the day it retained 200k subs for 10 years. And 1/3 of those players were stood in guildhalls decorating, cantinas dancing, and houses crafting....!!

Edited May 1, 2012 by Nippon

[mattgyver]

sandbox games are set and preferred for smaller playerbases what makes them so nice too many mainstream kids who came to mmos who came from console games who just dont understand the immersion behind a mmo which is normally the sandboxness.

 

sadly this is true. starting to hope that people who are happy to keep playing aren't going to be a niche audience.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Oh boy, I´m gonna laugh so hard when the actual "WoW Killer" one day will be a super polished, high budget Open World MMO where the setting is an advanced, living dynamic sandbox world as outline, offering several theme park rides like FPs, WZs, OPs and voice acted storylines. That will teach the sandbox naysayers.

 

I tell you what sandbox means: A LOT OF WORK FOR BIOWARE and there is probably not a chance any of this is even possible in HeroFail Engine and within the current server structure.

 

Why?

-Huge open world planets, cross server, which need to host any player who decides to go there in a single planetary instance, a.k.a. shard system, meet any subscriber if you set up time and location, no server separation, little to no instancing.

- no level based categorized planets

- skill based progression instead of levels

- no classes, learn what you want to know, e.g. find out what makes a Jedi (like SWG pre-cu)

- research crafting and learn, find out that works and what doesn't

- space exploration sandbox like EVE, where you can meet any subscriber anywhere on stations or somewhere in space in the vast universe

- housing areas and landforming areas where you can leave a permanent imprint to the game world, vegetation and animal population (not questing zones preferaby)

- dynamic day night weather change

- political systems and realtime faction control, a realtime war between two or even more factions, actually capturing planets or parts of the galaxy (e.g. EvE)

 

And the good thing is, NOTHING of the above excludes the possibility for the well known and fun theme park rides we do have now, a.k.a. story lines, flashpoints, warzones, operations.

 

But too much work, technical difficulties, wrong decisions, wasted budgets and missing developer motivation is preventing all of the above.

 

Upcoming MMOs already show the direction - ArcheAge, The Repopulation, The Secret World, the planned EvE developments like Dust 514, walking on Stations, MMOFPS additions, Storylines. It´s coming and the dated WoW/TOR concept will look even more clunky than it does today.

 

Perhaps 5 years from now there will exist this kind of revolutionary MMO, developed by an innovative developer who doesn´t plan to do another WoW concept rip off.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Goretzu]

It depends what you define as sandbox....

 

For me Sandbox is an engaging and evolving crafting system, same as SWG's

Being able to decorate your ship, how you like.

Not being railed in areas you travel, actual exploration.

Having Non-Combat classes (Entertainer SWG) to create a side of the game that is desperately missing, A social side, That maybe provides player buffs (same as SWG) this would take 10-15 minutes, which actually gets players socializing in an area and chatting. This requires...

Chat Bubbles

 

Being able to craft and make Clothing, Armour's, that players can use to change there appearance without jumping through hoops to do it. These items would be Guaranteed an augment slot...

Get rid of Raid Armour, make the Columi/Rakata/Campaign Mods Armourings Enhancements as Clothing / Armour attachments. As opposed to pieces.

 

Ive said it before and il say it again, SWG was run by a useless company and had its faults, but it also had dome brilliant bits and one of them was how it merged Sandbox / Themepark. Slate SWG all you like, end of the day it retained 200k subs for 10 years. And 1/3 of those players were stood in guildhalls decorating, cantinas dancing, and houses crafting....!!

 

 

 

The blend of themepark and sandbox is what will eventually become the standard IMO.

 

They idea that they are seperate things is a bit daft. It's like people saying you can only have speed or comfort in a car, when actually it's quite possible to have both to a reasonable and practical degree.

 

Most of the good ideas from SWG (or UO or EQ1 or Dark Fall etc. etc.) would work well in SWTOR, just as much at the good ideas from WoW (or LOTRO or AoC etc. etc.)...... and just as much as the ideas from DAoC (or WAR or Planetside would in an RvR sense).

[Razot]

I think theme park MMOs is a dead end.

 

True "next-generation" game should be a neat mix of both theme park and sandbox.

 

This!!

[Perfidius]

Sandbox all the way please!

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Sandbox all the way please!

^ this

+1

[Shockazilla]

Hybrids are the future.

 

I agree. Though I wish we had more than just one capital city (imperial station) and also that we had explorable continents with regions instead of boxes with obstacles.

[NasherUK]

The problem is, people today want everything quick and easy and in their faces like theme park games provide (also in real-life), because they can't figure stuff out for themselves any more. Sandboxes type games are usually more complex and the audience is much smaller these days.

 

We started off with large, open "sandbox" worlds 10+ years ago. Then wow came out and dumbed everything down. Now people keep making stuff like wow. No one has really come out with anything new and inventive since the days of Eve, SWG, etc. :/

Edited May 8, 2012 by NasherUK

[Goretzu]

The problem is, people today want everything quick and easy and in their faces like theme park games provide (also in real-life), because they can't figure stuff out for themselves any more. Sandboxes type games are usually more complex and the audience is much smaller these days.

 

We started off with large, open "sandbox" worlds 10+ years ago. Then wow came out and dumbed everything down. Now people keep making stuff like wow :/

 

People always wanted things quick and easy, and always will.

 

"Themepark" MMORPGs in general don't do very well either.

 

Although admittedly most Devs seem obsessed with chasing the WoW white whale..... which is daft because WoW 2 wouldn't likely be WoW.

 

But IMO the only future is hybrid (Archeage sort of stuff) al la SWTOR + the best bits of SWG.

[ConradLionhart]

Oh boy, I´m gonna laugh so hard when the actual "WoW Killer" one day will be a super polished, high budget Open World MMO where the setting is an advanced, living dynamic sandbox world as outline, offering several theme park rides like FPs, WZs, OPs and voice acted storylines. That will teach the sandbox naysayers.

.

.

.

Upcoming MMOs already show the direction - ArcheAge, The Repopulation, The Secret World, the planned EvE developments like Dust 514, walking on Stations, MMOFPS additions, Storylines. It´s coming and the dated WoW/TOR concept will look even more clunky than it does today.

 

Perhaps 5 years from now there will exist this kind of revolutionary MMO, developed by an innovative developer who doesn´t plan to do another WoW concept rip off.

 

The sandbox naysayers are not being naysayers for the sake of naysaying. They are using the track record of sandbox MMOs.

 

How many subscriptions does Eve Online have? Does it even have half a million? People are already screaming the end of the world for the Tortanic with 1.3 million subs, I really don't think 0.5 million will be enough. Also consider that Eve Online is space based, so it should do better for being space and not medieval themed.

 

If sandbox really worked, there should be this one big mega sandbox game that is doing very well for developers to go "Hey you know what, sandbox works, lets make one". But up till now, there is none. The best MMOs right now are themepark MMOs, Everquest, SW:TOR, World of Warcraft.

 

Sandbox MMOs only cater to a niche market.

[Goretzu]

The sandbox naysayers are not being naysayers for the sake of naysaying. They are using the track record of sandbox MMOs.

 

How many subscriptions does Eve Online have? Does it even have half a million? People are already screaming the end of the world for the Tortanic with 1.3 million subs, I really don't think 0.5 million will be enough. Also consider that Eve Online is space based, so it should do better for being space and not medieval themed.

 

If sandbox really worked, there should be this one big mega sandbox game that is doing very well for developers to go "Hey you know what, sandbox works, lets make one". But up till now, there is none. The best MMOs right now are themepark MMOs, Everquest, SW:TOR, World of Warcraft.

 

Sandbox MMOs only cater to a niche market.

 

If you look at themepark MMORPGs in the same light that most people look at the few sandy MMORPGs then no one would every make another Themepark MMORPG - only WoW has been "successful" Themepark-wise and yet there have been vastly more failed Themepark MMORPGs than Sandy MMORPGs in total.

 

 

There are even sandbox naysayers that think a space expansion for SWTOR is an idea Doomed beyond all doomed ever seen (dispite it having been successful in a SW MMORPG and my SW games and other MMORPGs).

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

The sandbox naysayers are not being naysayers for the sake of naysaying. They are using the track record of sandbox MMOs.

 

How many subscriptions does Eve Online have? Does it even have half a million? People are already screaming the end of the world for the Tortanic with 1.3 million subs, I really don't think 0.5 million will be enough. Also consider that Eve Online is space based, so it should do better for being space and not medieval themed.

 

If sandbox really worked, there should be this one big mega sandbox game that is doing very well for developers to go "Hey you know what, sandbox works, lets make one". But up till now, there is none. The best MMOs right now are themepark MMOs, Everquest, SW:TOR, World of Warcraft.

 

Sandbox MMOs only cater to a niche market.

 

But you are mixing up a lot of stuff here you know. You can´t compare TOR to EvE because the genres are completely different. The "sandbox aspect" is an entirely different topic.

 

Also, EvE is not that much of a niche game. Darkfall, Dawntide or Mortal Online are niche games, EvE is 9 years old and subs are constantly growing, CCP earns a truckload of money with this game and constantly expands it. (Checked out Dust 514 ? OMG !)

 

"The game, a science fictional adventure set in a star cluster dominated by five major civilizations, first launched in 2003, and its subscriber base (currently about 400,000) has grown every year since launch. Revenue has been growing too, at a compound annual growth rate of 53 percent, bringing in total revenue of $300 million over the game’s lifetime."

 

But EvE is complicated by design, it´s harsh and unforgiving, but the rewards if you accomplish something are amazing. Conquer the universe? All possible. If you are the type of player without patience and easily frustrated, EvE is the wrong game.

 

Yeah the trading and gameplay is for adults, and a stock broker might have way more fun in EvE than any other game. But with Dust 514 they will bring a lot of console gamers to into the sandbox, which is absolutely unique. I predict huge success and further developments into this direction.

 

http://techcrunch.com/2012/02/21/eve-online-saw-66m-in-revenue-last-year-mulls-ipo/

 

http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/fanfest-feature

 

I still have hope for TOR to make this game at least a little more "sandboxy" as far as it is possible.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[ConradLionhart]

"The game, a science fictional adventure set in a star cluster dominated by five major civilizations, first launched in 2003, and its subscriber base (currently about 400,000) has grown every year since launch. Revenue has been growing too, at a compound annual growth rate of 53 percent, bringing in total revenue of $300 million over the game’s lifetime."

 

9 years and only at 400k? Dude, I really think EA aims higher than that. 400k is niche.

 

The best you can hope for is a themepark with sandbox elements, not a full blown sandbox game. Pitch in ideas for space sandbox.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

9 years and only at 400k? Dude, I really think EA aims higher than that. 400k is niche.

 

The best you can hope for is a themepark with sandbox elements, not a full blown sandbox game. Pitch in ideas for space sandbox.

 

Of course I vote for themepark/sandbox hybrid, I wouldn´t sacrifice story and instanced events like warzones and flashpoints.

 

But at this point, it´s very uncertain if TOR in 9 years will have 400.000 subs and growing. Right now it´s a downwards curve, you know, and we don´t know yet at which number subs will remain constant over time.