Theme Park vs Sandbox, What Do The Players Think?

[Cerion]

Things like this doesnt save the game, period. Most are waiting Elder Scroll Online, IMHO.

 

proof that 'most' are waiting for TESO? lol. Not only will those waiting for TESO be disappointed (just as the same people were disappointed with SWTOR), you're going to have the same crowd of haters on the TESO forums lamenting their shattered delusions of a game that never was.

[MandoArc]

All i have to say is this and i dont care what no one say it is faq's

 

if SWG was out right now if SOE did not shut down SWG i will tell you this 60% to 65/70% of all the players on this game new star wars players and old SWG players will have gone back to SWG the SWG the was shut down was 20% better then the SWG we use to play 1 year before they shut it down if they will have add thos changes to the game 2 years again swg will have gone up on pop and if they will have keep the game running whit this game out at same time SWG will have done better not worst cuz everyone the is new to the Star wars IP will have love to play SWG a sandbox mmo where you can do Anything you want all Soe will have need to do is make pvp allitle bit better and add some more of thos intances they added before the game went down i think LArt know if they where to keep SWG going theres a change everyone the came to this junk of a game will go back to SWG this game is the Worst mmorpg hands down and the only thing saving it is the DAMN IP and everyone know this thos who dont are fanboys and no matter what you say to a fanboy or show they will never say YOU RIGHT soi'm cool whit it worst mmorpg out here only thing keeping me here is the IP and right now i play diablo and guildwars 2 beta more then i do this game wish go to show how bad and much of a grind this game is

[MandoArc]

And no i'm not alone the problem is the you fanboys and IP lover i mean thos hardcore IP lovers dont want to put Bio-ware on there seat you guys want to keep the azz kissing going

[Lunga]

How anyone can out SWG on a pedestal after the tragedy of the NGE is mind boggling. And anyone who wears rose coloured glasses that somehow make any incarnation of SWG into a "great game" obviously refuses to recognize the mismanagement by SOE or the plethora of bugs that riddled that game from day 1.

 

The ONLY thing worthwhile in SWG was the community that kept it alive despite it's major flaws, and even then... How many subs post-NGE?? Is that a success to you?

 

The "communities" in these games, and their lack of any kind of patience, usually ruins the games themselves much faster than any Dev team in the world. A 5 month old mmo will NOT have the feature set or content that a game like WoW has, by virtue of time. Give all mmos at least 1 year to hit the ground running.

 

Seems alot of people also refuse to remember the massive issues with all previous mmos such as EvE or WoW or EQ or SWG... But somehow, they love to slag companies like Bioware. Watch GW2 and TSW get burned and charred by the "community", just like Aion, WAR, Tera and SWTOR.

[Redcorn]

I was a big theme park MMO fan, but when it is done poorly it is really bad. I still want some themepark in my MMO, but also want a structured sandbox. I am not for an open sandbox.

 

I don't want others trashing the world I play in, and I don't have the imagination to fully populate my world with story, art, and other content.

 

Crafting and economy are important.

 

PVP and Social PVE really do not mix in my opinion.

[Laurien-Wriroh]

I have seen many posts regarding this subject and the pros and cons of each but I would like to get a feel for what the players really want.

MMO developers seem to think that sandbox is now a niche area and theme park is the way to go.

Many sandbox MMOs are still going strong even though they have changed their subscription model in an effort to retain their existing players and entice new players to give their game a go.

Lord of the Rings Online, Age of Conan, World of Warcraft, and, in my opinion, the daddy of them all, Eve Online is still going strong. I have returned to Eve twice over the years and recall the newbie chat channel and the opening channel after that is full of constant chatter which is what gives it its name Massive that it deserves.

And of course, take a look at the fourth coming Guild Wars 2. The devs have decided to change course from the famously heavily instanced original Guild Wars, although extremely popular, to a more open sandbox world, going completely against the grain of what the gaming masses are supposed to enjoy the most.

It is a matter of opinion but for me, when GW2 is released, that is where I will be going because I believe that heavy instancing takes the massively out of the game thus demeaning its goal.

Having said that, I still dont know what the majority of the MMO fraternity think and want.

So maybe we can find out from this post whether or not the devs took the right direction and so will keep their players for many years to come or will they leave en masse to return to the sandbox idea that the MMO genre originally embraced?

 

 

You need a mix of both thempark/sandbox (hybrid) to have a really good mix of features from different styles of MMORPGs not just WoW and it's clones (World Of TORcraft)

[Jederix]

It's clear what players think. Themepark games have millions of subscribers. Are there any sandbox games that can boast this?

 

Pretty much speaks for itself.

[Laurien-Wriroh]

It's clear what players think. Themepark games have millions of subscribers. Are there any sandbox games that can boast this?

 

Pretty much speaks for itself.

 

One one themepark game has millions of subscribers and its starting to show its age the rest tried to clone and cash in on the sucess of that one game and have all failed including this one. Its becoming more evident in the MMO community that people are growing tired of WoW clone after another their ready for something new and STORY wasn't what they wanted or a single player game masquerading as a MMO (TOR)

Edited May 16, 2012 by Laurien-Wriroh

[Goretzu]

It's clear what players think. Themepark games have millions of subscribers. Are there any sandbox games that can boast this?

 

Pretty much speaks for itself.

 

One does, WoW.

 

WoW is an exception, it is not the rule.

 

Until players, Devs and more importantly game company accountants understand this we're just going to have more an more uninspired MMORPGs that don't do very well sub-wise.

 

 

More "Themepark" MMORPGs have failed than any other sort, many, many more.

[Jederix]

Space doesn't exist in SWTOR at the moment, all that exists is a few mini-games.

A space expansion can be whatever it wants to be.

 

Something like a MMO version of Freelancer with a strong central story missions (al la Bioware), but with a much more open and sandbox galaxy (al la JTL) would be amazing.

 

 

 

 

SWTOR also desperately needs RvR.

 

When you look at what Rift is doing (3 faction RvR or RvRvR) there's no reason it could not work in SWTOR, GW2 is a similar idea, but perhaps wouldn't work with the current factional system.

 

There is more to this game, this genre, than PvP. Yet PvPers, time and time again, cannot seem to fathom this.

 

Would RvR be a good addition? Sure, it would bring in some players; desperately needed, however? No. But PvPers are a minority, always have been and (considering their attitudes deter bringing in new blood most of the time) always will be.

[mattgyver]

I agree totally with that. If they had not listened to the initial gamers complaining about server queues, and opened up new servers, there would not be this under population problem that we have right now.

 

Most of the time gamers don't know what they're talking about, and end up causing problems that they expect Bioware to clean up, when they were the ones who suggested it.

 

This is a ridiculous premise: Because something was not good and players didn't like it. They complained about it and the devs fixed it with something that went bad --> therefore the devs should not listen to customers.

 

The unintended consequences of having so many servers is not the fault of players for complaining about queue times. Bioware creates problems that Bioware has to deal with. This sounds like you are just aiming the RAWR gun at posters. Why ? The guys who make this game are the only ones who control it, if they decide to do something, and it goes bad, that was their fault.

Edited May 16, 2012 by mattgyver

[Lunga]

How many sandbox games have 1 million+ subs? I can name quite a few themeparks with 1 million+. And if WoW is the exception to all mmo rules, fine, let's take it out of the equation and start over.

 

Looking strictly at numbers of subs across all games: Themepark or sandbox? If the ultimate sandbox (EvE) is still strugling at 500k after almost a decade, then where are these "craving masses" of sandbox games?

[Jederix]

One does, WoW.

 

WoW is an exception, it is not the rule.

 

Until players, Devs and more importantly game company accountants understand this we're just going to have more an more uninspired MMORPGs that don't do very well sub-wise.

 

 

More "Themepark" MMORPGs have failed than any other sort, many, many more.

 

And even the themepark failures had more subs than any successful sandbox game can boast? Like it or not, the companies that created those "failures" made money, at least for a while.

 

They don't even bother with sandbox games because they are nonstarters from the get-go.

 

Personally, the first company to successfully marry the themepark and sandbox playstyles into a single game will have a goldmine on their hands.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Jederix

[Goretzu]

There is more to this game, this genre, than PvP. Yet PvPers, time and time again, cannot seem to fathom this.

 

Would RvR be a good addition? Sure, it would bring in some players; desperately needed, however? No. But PvPers are a minority, always have been and (considering their attitudes deter bringing in new blood most of the time) always will be.

 

 

Of course there is, just like there's more to this game, this genre, than PvE. Yet PvEers, time and time again cannot seem to fathom this!

 

RvRvR would be an excellent addition (which is why Rift and GW2 are doing it).

 

PvP is the thing most gamers do on the internet, PvE is the niche......... MMORPG developers eventually will realise there is no mileage in a Themepark PvE MMORPG (as Rift and GW2 devs seem to have done), only in a hybrid with many things including decent RvR(vR).

 

The best thing about RvR(vR) from a Dev and accountant point of view is it brings in a lot of revenue for a very small outlay, PvE on the other hand costs an awful lot.

[Goretzu]

And even the themepark failures had more subs than any successful sandbox game can boast? Like it or not, the companies that created those "failures" made money, at least for a while.

 

Totally untrue.

 

They don't even bother with sandbox games because they are nonstarters from the get-go.

 

Yup, Notch is crying in his mansion about how poorly Minecraft has done.

 

Personally, the first company to successfully marry the themepark and sandbox playstyles into a single game with have a goldmine on their hands.

 

Er... yes, that's what is repeatedly being said in this thread.

[Goretzu]

How many sandbox games have 1 million+ subs? I can name quite a few themeparks with 1 million+. And if WoW is the exception to all mmo rules, fine, let's take it out of the equation and start over.

 

4 (well 5 if you count SWTOR at this moment), but of those 4 of them only get that high with global sales which include the eastern model of payment which is nothing like a traditional Western subscription (i.e. the numbers are massively inflated and can't be compared to a normal Western subscription model).

 

Looking strictly at numbers of subs across all games: Themepark or sandbox? If the ultimate sandbox (EvE) is still strugling at 500k after almost a decade, then where are these "craving masses" of sandbox games?

 

It is however out performing ALL if it's rivals from it's own generation. Very few MMORPGs from early 2003 are even still going, never mind have more subs than EvE.

 

How many Themepark MMORPGs are still gaining subs after a decade of existence?

 

Aye, exactly. (although tbf "Themepark" didn't exist in 2003, WoW largely invented it, with EQ1-lite)

 

This demonstrates pretty well the longevity of Sandbox features in an MMORPG, something SWTOR could seriously do with!

Edited May 16, 2012 by Goretzu

[ZORG]

This is what i want to see

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=305749

 

Get rid of fixed classes and bring back customization

 

If classes werent fixed or at least somewhat limited then the PVP minority would be all loud cause some people can face roll everyone. Then the secret would be out and then all pvpers would be that class and build and there would be no customization.

[mattgyver]

It's clear what players think. Themepark games have millions of subscribers. Are there any sandbox games that can boast this?

 

Pretty much speaks for itself.

 

Yeah, and it's pretty much a weak argument because:

 

-This is not WoW

-Bleeding subs due to content problems has led to this thread

-How many subs will there be if the "Do Nothings" prevail?

-This Game won't become a true sandbox no matter what, so the analogy does not apply.

-Each game launched has many variables that determine success or failure, and design is just one of those parameters. WoW did not succeed just because it was a theme park. It had other attributes, timing, and features that appealed to the market.

Edited May 16, 2012 by mattgyver

[Jederix]

Of course there is, just like there's more to this game, this genre, than PvE. Yet PvEers, time and time again cannot seem to fathom this!

 

RvRvR would be an excellent addition (which is why Rift and GW2 are doing it).

 

PvP is the thing most gamers do on the internet, PvE is the niche......... MMORPG developers eventually will realise there is no mileage in a Themepark PvE MMORPG (as Rift and GW2 devs seem to have done), only in a hybrid with many things including decent RvR(vR).

 

The best thing about RvR(vR) from a Dev and accountant point of view is it brings in a lot of revenue for a very small outlay, PvE on the other hand costs an awful lot.

 

We are talking about MMOs here, by the way, not every game that has a multiplayer facet to it.

 

PvPers are a minority in MMOs. Period. They are, however, (as you have proven) very loud. Also, just to be clear, everyone who does PvP in an MMO is not a PvPer. When I say PvPer, I mean dedicated PvPers. Few fall into that category.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Notannos
rude, no warning

[Lunga]

"This demonstrates pretty well the longevity of Sandbox features in an MMORPG, something SWTOR could seriously do with! "

 

So in 9 years, if SWTOR is still kicking around with 500k to 1million subs, we can all stop arguing? It's a double standard dude. EvE proves one thing, you can run a game for a decade, and have a stable sub base, but it also demonstrates the lack of appetite for do-it-yourself sandbox mmorpgs.. It's a double standard, and it's wisdom through hindsight. SWTOR is in it's first 6 months of operation. If they keep a 1-1.3 million solid base for the next decade, alot of the complainers will still deem it a "failure".

[mattgyver]

"This demonstrates pretty well the longevity of Sandbox features in an MMORPG, something SWTOR could seriously do with! "

 

So in 9 years, if SWTOR is still kicking around with 500k to 1million subs, we can all stop arguing? It's a double standard dude. EvE proves one thing, you can run a game for a decade, and have a stable sub base, but it also demonstrates the lack of appetite for do-it-yourself sandbox mmorpgs.. It's a double standard, and it's wisdom through hindsight. SWTOR is in it's first 6 months of operation. If they keep a 1-1.3 million solid base for the next decade, alot of the complainers will still deem it a "failure".

 

sigh...

If SWTOR doesn't change, and becomes a back shelf game this is the mentality that will have made it happen. You'd rather keep the ship the same and ride it to the bottom. Organisms that don't adapt don't survive. Your position seems antagonistic rather than constructive. What is your compelling advice for those who are contemplating leaving the game? Or to those who have left but could be persuaded to come back? "Hey, come back customer, it's the same but now there's a new FP and a WZ. I know you will be bored again in 3 days but it's just 15 bucks."

[MandoArc]

There is more to this game, this genre, than PvP. Yet PvPers, time and time again, cannot seem to fathom this.

 

Would RvR be a good addition? Sure, it would bring in some players; desperately needed, however? No. But PvPers are a minority, always have been and (considering their attitudes deter bringing in new blood most of the time) always will be.

 

pve'rs like you are why this game is dead yea hate it or love it the faq is this game was at hes best went all the pvp'ers where here all the pvper's from every mmorpg came to this game pve'rs are not here they still playing world of nerd craf this is why ones guildwars 2 beta and diablo 3 game out this game is down and out i dont give a 3 Shyt if you want to say is cuz thos game are new no is cuz thos game have better pvp even a damn rpg have better pvp then this damn grind *** cc junk of a game I WILL SAY IT ONE MORE TIME IF IT WAS NOT FOR THE IP THIS GAME WILL HAVE BEEN DEAD long time ago keep showing love to the pve'rs and keep putting the pvper's on the back and this game will die like it is oready now say F to this pver's and i will bet anything this game will go back on pop went peoplo think of star wars hate it or love it they think of a sith and a jedi getting it on not some npc boss fight we want the WAR part of star WARS to be oart of the game not on a npc boss fight put on a damn player vs player form

[kirorx]

ITs funny to me to read these post from Pro-Sandboxers. ( l seem to enjoy sandbox elements alot).

 

Where were you guys before SWTOR was released? I remember so many discussion about this prior to Beta and it seemed that 90% of the post were anti-sandbox.

 

Back then it was all "sandbox games are terribad" or "theme park is the future".

 

If you defended any thing sandbox back then you got the hate stick. Now so many people have flipped the script.

 

Should have spoken up a year ago when we all knew this game would be themepark and there would not even be day/night cycles.

[DyasAlue]

• p1 /ooc camp check
  
• p2 /ooc Frenzy (List holder)
  
• p3 /should ***RASTER IS CAMPED!*** (same monk you saw all of last week)
  
• p4 /ooc ***/sup, no list.
  
• p1 /tell p2 add me to the list please
  

 

You got in line and waited; you got onto the ride (into the group) and rode for a while.

 

I will go back to reading the whole thread, but I saw this and had to laugh. Nothing like camping ice giants in everfrost for money.

• P1 /ooc anyone camping ice giants?
  
• /ooc P2 Right one is open
  
• ... 12 3 hours later, selling copper at Ice giants.
  

[Monave]

Things like this doesnt save the game, period. Most are waiting Elder Scroll Online, IMHO.

 

 

proof that 'most' are waiting for TESO? lol. Not only will those waiting for TESO be disappointed (just as the same people were disappointed with SWTOR), you're going to have the same crowd of haters on the TESO forums lamenting their shattered delusions of a game that never was.

 

This guy is a obvious troll/mole as somebody else pointed out. EVERY post I see he mentions this...

Edited May 16, 2012 by Monave