A Gap Closer for Operatives

[Xodos]

you mad bro?

[AdmiralOnasi]

Love all the replies, have you ever played an OP. Cry all you want! YOUR CLASS IS NOT MEANT TO HAVE AN "I WIN BUTTON AGAINST EVERY OTHER CLASS". This game is not built around your OP being good at Hutt Ball (example). You can’t compare your class to dueling other Empire players in duels. The only comparison would be how do you do against republic mirror class. They took away the unique class thing back in beta and made us mirrors (didn’t say it’s not broken).

 

Oh! And to the idiot who says, You can't Spam Back Stab it’s on a 9 sec CD. Really well if so then explain this "when I get knocked down and I hear the excat same sound "backstab" 1 to 2 times before I ever stand up? And my health being affected. But it’s on a 9 sec CD. So it's another ability you have to hit with when someone is on the ground? Oh, ok then sorry I was wrong it's not backstab. So for me to say it was backstab is wrong. And then when I do stand up, I get knocked right back down again?

 

Ever think it's broke? Lag, Internet? There have been other games that spamming 1 button sends multi signals to the server regardless of the timer? No one ever wants to admit when they are playing a class that’s over powered. Everyone wants to be the best at playing games and not lose. Nothing you can say would change my opinion. Don’t you think I would love to just mow down people in my Tank? Or own face?

 

You’re mad your class got nerfed so you can't just 3 shot targets. Welcome to my world of being a Tank. Don't compare your class to Sorcs and Tanks. You’re not either; your class was designed to be a support class. 2 OP can devastate a Tank. Notice I didn't say Sith Tank? This aint WOW! You can't have it all; Ever think my class is broken? Or needs this? You cannot ever justify to me that OP need a gap closer...

 

Your class was O/P from the beginning and your use to be able to 3 shot targets because of the Surge Nerf you can't now! Troll away I won't lose any sleep

 

This post epitomizes everything that is wrong with these forums. You are either a brilliant troll (which I'm guessing you are from the 'u mad bro' on the next page), or you really are that dumb.

[Triple-A]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like those who play Ops have the largest issue with gap closers when it comes to Huttball. Do they have issues in Void or Alderaan? I play a PT Pyro so i do have grapple and it's on 45 sec cooldown. If the CD on cloaking screen was reduced to 45-60s would that be enough?

[hulkweazel]

You’re mad your class got nerfed so you can't just 3 shot targets. Welcome to my world of being a Tank. Don't compare your class to Sorcs and Tanks. You’re not either; your class was designed to be a support class. 2 OP can devastate a Tank. Notice I didn't say Sith Tank? This aint WOW! You can't have it all; Ever think my class is broken? Or needs this? You cannot ever justify to me that OP need a gap closer...

The only truth in your post is that tanks do just as much damage as Concealment specced Ops. My PT Tank, for example.

 

ROFL at 2 Ops devastating a tank. Yeah a Tank should be able to go toe-to-toe with TWO other classes!

 

I think I'm getting dumber by the minute from reading this post.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like those who play Ops have the largest issue with gap closers when it comes to Huttball. Do they have issues in Void or Alderaan? I play a PT Pyro so i do have grapple and it's on 45 sec cooldown. If the CD on cloaking screen was reduced to 45-60s would that be enough?

Yeah the main issue is with Huttball in which even if you're an amazingly skilled player, you'll still be a detriment to your team as a concealment specced Op, no matter how much damage you can put up or kills you can get since half the time you'll be completely away from the action and you'll spend time in stealth about 5% of the whole match.

 

Voidstar and Alderaan aren't as bad and good Ops can make up for the weakness but it is still a problem.

 

Reducing cooldown to Cloaking Screen may help but I doubt it would ever happen.

Edited February 29, 2012 by hulkweazel

[Howbadisbad]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like those who play Ops have the largest issue with gap closers when it comes to Huttball. Do they have issues in Void or Alderaan? I play a PT Pyro so i do have grapple and it's on 45 sec cooldown. If the CD on cloaking screen was reduced to 45-60s would that be enough?

 

They don't really have issues in Alderann in terms of mechanics.

 

In AOEstar they get knocked out of stealth pretty consistently by AOE everywhere.

 

Even if they are not horribly gimped on certain maps, the fact remains that other classes preform significantly better than an Operative at the same skill level.

[Necrosov]

The amount of ignorance and just plain stupidity in this thread makes me shake my head in disgust. No wonder this game is going down the gutter...

[astrolite]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like those who play Ops have the largest issue with gap closers when it comes to Huttball. Do they have issues in Void or Alderaan? I play a PT Pyro so i do have grapple and it's on 45 sec cooldown. If the CD on cloaking screen was reduced to 45-60s would that be enough?

 

It's a series of problems.

 

Here is a scenario -

 

Your stealth to a target, which does take some time and you have to typically come at an angle/behind to avoid detection. You open on target. His ranged friend comes by and starts blowing you up. You either use your 2-3m cooldown to get back to stealth to run away and heal up, or you die.

 

Any of the other melee classes, including the stealth one, could switch targets to interrupt/CC with a gap closer. While they are still outnumbered and will probably die, they have the option to choose strategic targets. We literally have to walk to the target and undoubtedly be CC'd or snared ourselves - add in any environmental factors and you're done with that fight. Once someone sneezes on you, you are in combat for the next 20-30 seconds unless ALL targets with whom you are in combat with die.

 

Our out of stealth damage truly isn't that great (I have almost full BM) so switching targets is already a losing proposition unless you are in the midst of a multi-person battle where you can assist fire others within your close melee range. That is the only time I would even consider fighting people outside of stealth as our opener is a requirement for any solo encounter vs equally geared / competent player.

 

Even if we did have a gap closer, we also do not have the proper energy mechanics for sustained fighting. If you don't kill a healer quickly, you are heading to the bottomless pit that is operative energy regen. The lower it goes, the slower it regenerates. Even with stim boost and adrenaline probe, it just isn't enough (see note about opener being required to actually burst people down).

 

 

 

In short:

 

All melee classes in all games have a gap closer. It is a requirement to responding to ranged damage. If there were no melee gap closers then melee would consistently be crushed by ranged without any retaliation. Bioware appeared to be experimenting with operatives having no gap closer, but high burst. Guess that didn't work out and it is time to implement basic melee tools to keep the class competitive.

[SammuelSK]

All melee classes in all games have a gap closer. It is a requirement to responding to ranged damage. If there were no melee gap closers then melee would consistently be crushed by ranged without any retaliation. Bioware appeared to be experimenting with operatives having no gap closer, but high burst. Guess that didn't work out and it is time to implement basic melee tools to keep the class competitive.

 

This is pretty much the main issue, Bioware went in one direction and built the class around large damage hit openings removing most of the other tools that one would give a melee class. Then it took away the large damage numbers without bringing the other end back up. The class at the momment feels incomplete. Piddly damage with large energy problems and zero ability to get to the target outside of stealth.. which has plenty of its own problems considering the over abundance of AOE classes atm.

 

The long and short of it is, and you can delude yourselves all you want about how your just a better player, but an operative is basicllly a free kill at the momment. As a healer, they are no problem to kill 1 on 1 since they can't DPS you down or lock you down into a self healing cycle, as a ranged DPS you have acess to knockbacks+roots(and shields for sorcs) which prevent them from doing damage and as a tank.. they just aren't gonna do enough damage to you.

 

How *********** hard is it to figure out, you'll see maybe one or two DPS operatives a NIGHT PVPing, and anywhere between six and twelve sorcs(sages) a MATCH. There's a reason they are so under represented.

[CaptainInsano]

Lack of a gap closer is a class wide problem that Sages in particular can exploit, but it's really a problem in Huttball. It's the combination of no cap closer and no knockback that kills this class in there. So basically you're pinball fodder if you're on the second level and when you do get knocked down, you have no way of getting back up in time to contribute. That's where a "gap closer" would come in super handy and give Operatives life in Huttball. There's a lot BW can do creatively to implement a "shadowstep" type ability. Operatives can throwndown a smoke grenade and just appear behind the target, and Smugglers can use "rakata technology" to teleport behind a target. These classes really need some love in both PvE and PvP. Edited February 29, 2012 by CaptainInsano

[rlpirate]

Ur freaking cloaked, thats ur gap closer. Get better and it wouldnt be a problem.

[CaptainInsano]

Ur freaking cloaked, thats ur gap closer. Get better and it wouldnt be a problem.

 

And yet that doesn't stop Assassins from having a 20s cooldown Force Speed in addition to an AoE knockback. You people need to get a better line.

Edited February 29, 2012 by CaptainInsano

[rlpirate]

And yet that doesn't stop Assassins from having a 20s cooldown Force Speed in addition to an AoE knockback. You people need to get a better line.

 

Last time i fought shadow i didnt get stun locked. Whats ur point?

[Ryotknife]

And yet that doesn't stop Assassins from having a 20s cooldown Force Speed in addition to an AoE knockback. You people need to get a better line.

 

and assassins are overpowered....whats your point?

 

that you want ops to be overpowered? not exactly a great argument. assassins (and sorcs) have too much utility, although at least the inquisitors dont do as much raw damage as ops can.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Ryotknife

[CaptainInsano]

Last time i fought shadow i didnt get stun locked. Whats ur point?

 

4.5 seconds is now a stunlock? Assassins can do the same thing if they open on you. And Assassins are now OP with all the other crap running around? Now I've heard it all. I'm saying Operatives need 1/2 of the utility moves Assassins have. Only class in the game with no movement ability and no knockback. It's a gamekiller in Huttball.

[rlpirate]

and assassins are overpowered....whats your point?

 

that you want ops to be overpowered? not exactly a great argument. assassins (and sorcs) have too much utility, although at least the inquisitors dont do as much raw damage as ops can.

 

thats exactly what he wants. He wants to be able to hide until someone is about to die, use the gap closer, spike and then recloak to sit and wait for his cds and do it again.

 

When u look at the classes from a whole alot of the things we argue about shouldnt even be an issue because alot of it comes from terrible design. IE dmg dealers with healing abilities and hybirds with access to everything.

[CaptainInsano]

thats exactly what he wants. He wants to be able to hide until someone is about to die, use the gap closer, spike and then recloak to sit and wait for his cds and do it again.

 

When u look at the classes from a whole alot of the things we argue about shouldnt even be an issue because alot of it comes from terrible design. IE dmg dealers with healing abilities and hybirds with access to everything.

 

No I want the class to be viable in Huttball for one. The gap closer could even be usable only outside of stealth for all I care.

[rlpirate]

4.5 seconds is now a stunlock? Assassins can do the same thing if they open on you. And Assassins are now OP with all the other crap running around? Now I've heard it all. I'm saying Operatives need 1/2 of the utility moves Assassins have. Only class in the game with no movement ability and no knockback. It's a gamekiller in Huttball.

 

cause u still have the flash bang.

 

We all know that consular and inq are gonna get nerfed so instead of asking for op crap that cloak classes shouldnt have u should just get better. Like i said on a previous post, bioware didnt have a clue when they designed the classes.

[rlpirate]

No I want the class to be viable in Huttball for one. The gap closer could even be usable only outside of stealth for all I care.

 

In reality the only classes that are good in huttball are juggernaut/consular/inq. Everyone else has the same problems u have. Or do u think ur the only one that gets hit with tons of knockbacks and stuns? Yea i have grapple on my pt but when i hook u i commit to the fight, im not gonna throw a flash bang and run the hell away.

Edited February 29, 2012 by rlpirate

[Ryotknife]

No I want the class to be viable in Huttball for one. The gap closer could even be usable only outside of stealth for all I care.

 

ill admit, ops are the worst class in huttball, but your class is one of the most powerful ones in ald and void.

 

you dont see a problem with this? giving you a gap closer willy nilly will make your class even more powerful in void and ald and make you mediocre in huttball.

 

honestly, i wouldnt mind giving you a gap closer (on a 45 sec CD) IF they toned down your burst more. you can have more sustained dps via energy regen talent or something

Edited February 29, 2012 by Ryotknife

[syntxerr]

First off, this is not a thread made to whine about the changes made to Operatives in pvp. Personally, I think a slightly lower damage hidden strike is a fair trade with the buff jarring strike was given to not fill the resolve bar. An issue I do feel needs addressed however is the lack of a gap closing power for Operatives, specifically concealment.

 

If you look at the other melee classes, they all have some sort of skill that allows them to get in a ranged dps' face more quickly (Force Charge, Jet Charge, Grapple, Force Speed, etc). Operatives have two talents that provide movement speed increases, but one requires us to use Debilitate on a target (our best stun), and the other requires us to burn out best defensive cooldown (Cloaking Screen). The other melee classes do not have similar drawbacks built into their gap closers, and only Jet Charge requires a talent.

 

Here is my suggestion:

 

1) Switch Meticulously Kept Blades and Culling in the Concealment talent tree.

2) Roll Acid Blade and Culling into one talent. It would still be a 3 point talent, and points invested beyond the first would only increase the damage dealt to poisoned targets (1%/2%/3%).

3) Create a new 31 point talent similar to Shadowstep used by rogues in that other game whose name cannot be spoken. The range would be equal to that of the other gap closers, and the operative would end up behind his or her target.

 

Now, before anyone says "Stealth is your gap closer, that talent would be overpowered!", I would like to point out that the other stealthy melee class not only has a gap closer in the form of a sprint, but also has an AoE knockback. I am suggesting Operatives sacrifice the utility of a knockback in order to have a skill that would bring them more into line with the other melee classes when outside of stealth.

 

Any thoughts are appreciated, and yes I can feel the flames at my back as I finish typing this. Cheers!

 

Well, even though you don't want to hear it, I'd really say Stealth is your gap closer. This together with your strong stuns and extremely high burst when opening from stealth is really enough in my opinion.

 

This is not comparable with the other class, which in my opinion does have a bit much utility in certain specs, because they do not have the ability to knock you down, stun you and basically get you down to 20% without you even moving.

 

As a healer, I'm strictly against this. Yes, you guys kill me anyway most of the time. But if you get some charge or whatever kind of ability, that'd mean I'm a freekill for you.

[WutsInAName]

Operative:

 

-Worst healer in the game

-Worst stealther in the game

-Worst DPS in the game

-NO utility in Huttball

 

 

Ich Bin Ein L2P.

[syntxerr]

No I want the class to be viable in Huttball for one. The gap closer could even be usable only outside of stealth for all I care.

 

I think well played ones actually are quite strong. Two of them can take even a healed or guarded ball carrier apart super quickly. You stealth also allows you to position yourself winthin the enemy half to receive a pass and then either score or pass on further.

 

If you want Warrior like gameplay and charge people with the ball, perhaps you might want to consider playing a Warrior.

 

Seriously, we don't need more homogenisation. Let's just give charge, knockback and stealth to all classes.

Edited February 29, 2012 by syntxerr

[Necrosov]

I guess being able stealth to key areas for a pass or to the goal line makes us worthless in Huttball. We got lots of utility to use. The problems is YOU... not the class. Try pairing up with someone and use some actual teamwork because the class is quite devastating when used properly and with some tactics.

[SteveMo]

What I've done was start dancin. Sounds stupid but if you can lead your opponent then your gap closer is Sever Tendon. Even if dispelled you should have that distance closed already. Save Evasion for knock back snares. Use your PvP CD for any others you want to get out of. 2 min Cloaking Screen. 30 sec Defib, Sever Tendon 12 sec, you can close gaps fine. Just have to have to be quick and know what your gonna do.

 

One thing that doesn't make sense to me is Latency issues. Lag Spikes are my worst enemy. Can't backstab when your laggin let alone try and Close a Gap.

 

I see a lot of Noobs let themselves die. Make sure you use Toxic Screen a lot as well. You'll notice a significant amount of damage being reduced. Many classes (ours included) like DoT's. Don't QQ when you can do something about it.

 

Here's my Fix

Acid Blade - Coats your instruments in acid, causing your next Hidden Strike or Backstab to deal an additional 729 internal damage over 6 seconds and increase armor penetration by 30% and Movement Speed by 10% for 15 seconds. This ability does not respect the global cooldown and does not break stealth.

[ImSaved]

ill admit, ops are the worst class in huttball, but your class is one of the most powerful ones in ald and void.

 

you dont see a problem with this? giving you a gap closer willy nilly will make your class even more powerful in void and ald and make you mediocre in huttball.

 

How is an Operative any better in those Warzones than any other class? Personally I hate Voidstar, it's nothing but an AoE zerg at the doors. Operatives shine when they're able to pick people off, in fact it's in the classes nature to AVOID large scale fights simply because it doesn't play to our strengths. As for Alderaan, our class is fine, but it's definitely not better than any other competent DPS.

 

Our damage is nowhere near that of a Marauder, PT Pyrotech, etc. but both of those classes have far better utility in addition to a decent gap closing ability. I know people wanna say "OMG, YOU HAVE STEALTH" but stealth is not the answer to everything. Especially in this game, where you can be sited in stealth from 10m away and it takes 30 seconds just to get out of combat and re-stealth.

Edited February 29, 2012 by ImSaved