justadude Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 2 faction system is fail in Star Wars. Bioware would have been better off not implementing it, thus allowing BH & Smugglers to be neutral and work for the highest bidder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausstig Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 yes, the republic isn't perfect. but it tries to do good. the empire is irredeemably evil. to argue that is just wrong. basically its like this.... republic, good guys with a few rotten apples in there. empire, evil guys with a couple nice guys in there. The Republic does try to be good, just as many people in America try to live up to the ideals of their nation, truth, justice, (equality?) but many are just greedy scum, who profit off of others, same with the Republic. The Empire is the same, only their ideals are different are revolve around gaining wealth and power, or something. Both have good and bad people. But on the whole the Republic is more white then the Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sockrocker Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 If you play long enough on either side you'll come to realise that there are plenty of honorable imperials, as well as corrupt republicans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonedzero Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) as republic i was never asked to poison slaves. i was never asked to wipe out a clan of aliens simply because they were learning about the force. (lesser species was the reasoning). i was never asked to boobytrap bodies to purposely kill civilians to break morale of the enemy. ect. yes. they are evil, a couple nice guys doesnt change the actions of the majority. just like a couple jerks in the republic doesn't make the republic evil. i get it, you play the imperial side and you dont want to feel guilty for playing on such an extremely evil faction, but it is. they made the republic flawed and imperfect because its more relate-able than if they were perfect good guys. its just really hard to believe people are trying to pretend that the empire isn't evil. yes, there are a couple nice people in the empire, but doesn't mean the faction itself isn't extremely evil. Edited February 21, 2012 by Clonedzero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredder Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 i know i miss playing my prot pally... Come on Bioware try for us. plz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sockrocker Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 i get it, you play the imperial side and you dont want to feel guilty for playing on such an extremely evil faction, but it is. Why would one feel guilty for playing an Imperial? It's a game. i know i miss playing my prot pally... Come on Bioware try for us. plz. This is not WoW, nor should it be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sockrocker Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Issue is: BW always focuses on the Empire as pure bad guys, blood thirsty and murderous killing machines. This is very black/white and not levels of grey. The Sith are fueled by passions, not purely rage. Happyness, Love, Hate, Friendship, etc. Whatever the emotion is, the Sith embrace it fully, where the Jedi attempt to be without emotions which will cloud their decisions. Sadly this tends to translate into: jedi are super nice people (which is pretty untrue) sith are super bad people (which reading cannon books, seems pretty untrue). What is true is the chance of a bad guy sith is much higher, but to portray every sith as a super blood thirsty guy is a bit much I feel. I agree 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assaultrooper Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I have the comic books. I know what happened. I saw them "in real time" as it were. I know what people were thinking, I know what people were doing, I know when and how things happened. The comic books are "out of universe" reference and as such they are completely non-biased C-Canon accounts of what happened. I have the game, I have seen what Bioware shows me, nothing else is "Non-Canon." And irrelevant if you go back to OP's main concern which deals with the ingame portrayal of the factions. No, my problem has nothing to do with the fact that he is biased (and possibly a secret Sith) but with the fact that his recollection of events directly contradicts the events that were depicted. Let me state this more clearly. Gnost Dural, in more than one incident, completely omitted entire important sections of Republic history specifically with the expressed purpose of making the Sith look better. As far as I can tell his recollections, JUST at the end make the sith mildly justified.. From manipulation, assassination, from attacking the direct legitimacy of the emperor's rule. I can't see anywhere else this "sith propaganda". Seems you are taking one of his arguments when he says "Maybe we could have done better." , and saying "HE IS A SITH SPY!" We know, from the canon that Gnost Dural is incorrect. Now let me explain how the canon works and why it works. If Luke Skywalker says in a novel, "Darth Vader never slaughtered any children in the Jedi Temple." That doesn't remove the scene in Episode III where Vader indeed did that very act. Luke is simply wrong. He is not a "canon source" as he is not a movie, a novel, etc. Gnost Dural is also not a canon source. He is a character in the universe and thus does not have access to the information we, the players, actually do. Oh yea and comic books > Novel > Videos from the Developer when? Actually it can be the product of his imagination. This is because, according to BioWare, most of the records from the GHW are lost. Thus Gnost Dural is going off what he can find and is trying to piece information back together. The genocide is his theory, it isn't true, but historians are wrong on levels of this all the time, it is not unusual. Here is a great example: The Velociraptor in real life, the dinosaur, has feathers. This was not discovered until about 5 years ago, however for many decades every single paleontologist knew that they were lizard like in skin and did not have feathers. First no, historians do not make mistakes like that "all the time". Its completely different from your example. A dinosaur is a completely alien thing to us, we are not dinasours, nor are we part of a dinasour clan, nor did the dinasour "win the war" therefore having a plenty records of such victory, what we have here is more into the lines of senate hearings in Rome, of which we have plenty documentation, that no one can question. What prove does it need to prove me? The Chancellor ordering the elimination of all remaining Sith, and the simple recollection that this was somewhat carried over. No need for any "detailed" documentation, just simply senate hearings would prove the intent which is enough, and Gnost Dural would have direct access to those hearings, AND would not lie, or fabricate information, because this is easily verified. When people say there are not much information of the soviet era, does not mean "DISREGARD ANY HISTORICAL CONCLUSION ABOUT THIS ERA." That is because the Emperor lied and manipulated the Sith into believing there was a Genocide as a way to build and direct anger. We know this to be true because in the JK story: We are told some of the lies that the Sith are taught. Lord Praven for example was taught that Jedi were ruthless killers who know no honor and who would never spare the life of an enemy. I went to Korriban and never heard of the massive slaughter of sith by repubs. I disagree heavily only sith historians seem to hold this event dear. Or apparently guys that aren't that darksided, yet still fervently loyal like the Lord Praven you quoted. Again I can see Sith not been too at home when considered the "underdog" especially when they are winning the war! (BTW, ewww you have a JK....) Doesn't take a massive single weapon. It only takes about 12 ships on the level of a Star Destroyer and about six hours. In Star Wars lore it is known as a Base Delta Zero. Again by your "lore" only 12 ships could have saved me alot of trouble in Taris... Every single encounter, even those with Naga Sadow after he blew up a sun, showed the Jedi and the Republic offering the Sith a chance to surrender. We have no reason to believe that this practice was halted, and given the fact that it is part of how Jedi interact normally we must assume it as a given until otherwise shown in a C-Canon or higher source. I can many reasons to change this behavior BUT your zealous mind can't. I mean Gnost Dural make specific reference to the moment when the Chancellor, decided to simply erase the only threat the Republic had. I can see how this could have been approved by the senate no problem. I can see many republic troops going with it because of sheer vengeance. The Sith didn't exist peacefully on Dromund Kaas, read the Revan book, they conquered planets around them constantly and enslaved them pretty much the entire time. I believe subjugating 2-3 worlds, in about 1 millenia is considered peaceful. You cannot blame the Republic because they have a crime rate. No, but I can blame the Republic for creating a incentive to do crime. The Republic soldiers weren't supposed to be doing that. Again you can only judge based on the law and not on the actions of people who break that law. So basically I just have to get the Emperor actually saying "I dont like people having slaves" on record and all is good! Anyways no Laws, what they intend is one thing, what they do whoever are another. I am not criticizing soldiers going out of the way to break the law. I am criticizing the system itself that makes it so that there is a genuine incentive to such actions, and no direct form of punishment. In that a Good/Loyal soldier is put in a situation where he is forced into corruption. A system that fails to act on its laws is as evil as a system with no laws at all. Actually we know that in the history of the Republic there have been a handful of low-birth senators and chancellors. I'll take you on that cause I really doubt it, name 1 chancellor, and atleast 2 senators, that say were born "illegal" slaves, or workers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assaultrooper Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 on nar shadda republic side, you shut down an imperial death factory where they are killing thousands and thousands of evocai, when you take out the general in charge he says they have dozens of such facilities all over the galaxy. there are no slaves in the republic as well, and its democracy. as in people are elected...not really oppression there buddy... They are not elected!!! lolz xD when "Princess" Amidala says "Thats how democracy dies." she means democracy like in terms of debates rather than elections. Senators are not chosen based on elections they are appointed by the Planets. Of which most are monarchys, and oligarchys, and technocracys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assaultrooper Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Don't bother arguing with Walsh. He focuses on a few 'facts' that support him and ignores everything else. Also the Republic is built on racism and exploitation, it is a very good analogue of a blotted 20th century democracy, it says it's good, and many do try to live up to that but others don't. Yea I'm starting to give up :\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorWalsh Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 They are not elected!!! lolz xD when "Princess" Amidala says "Thats how democracy dies." she means democracy like in terms of debates rather than elections. Senators are not chosen based on elections they are appointed by the Planets. Of which most are monarchys, and oligarchys, and technocracys. Erm, you mean Queen Amidala? You do know that the "ruler" or Queen/King of Naboo is an elected position. That is why Amidala is a Senator in Episode II and III. She was elected to be Queen by her people and served her terms and then a new one was elected. No, she was talking about actual Democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assaultrooper Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Erm, you mean Queen Amidala? You do know that the "ruler" or Queen/King of Naboo is an elected position. That is why Amidala is a Senator in Episode II and III. She was elected to be Queen by her people and served her terms and then a new one was elected. No, she was talking about actual Democracy. Yes I know Naboo is one of the few planets that have an electoral system. Now Amidala was not talking of naboo been killed but the senate, and senators are not elected, they are appointed by their home-worlds, lets have a quick run down of republican worlds shall we mr naboo = all republic. Alderaan: Aristocratic-Monarchy, a low birth alderaanian will never be the Duke. Think of how long the Organa family has remained in the political elite. Trade Federation: Oligarchy Gungans: Tribalist/Monarchy Remember Palpatine congratulating binks on his "Appointment" as senator? Kashyyk (Is it a member of the republic o.O?): Tribalist. Kamino: Oh yea sure as if they do elections involving all of the clones.... Oligarchy. No, she was not referring to the death of democratically elected government, as these continued even during the First Galactic Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banetek Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 first off it has a light and dark side for both factions. Bioware did not want to turn this game into a care fest... if YOU want to be good, be good, Evil be evil... don't force your views on an entire faction like horde versus alliance... this is not carecraft , this game is about pvp as much as pve... Simple... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stenrik Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I like playing whatever the underdog is, whether they're deemed good or evil. It just suits me. I want to be the cornered badger, and the one who tries to make much out of little because I have to. (That said, the imbalance is a little TOO extreme right now...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldVengeance Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) Racism!? where!? I hope you are not implying my Twi'lek Dark Council Member is a slave.... Now that said, the Republic is not democratically elected I believe the senators are appointed by each planet much of whom are monarchys, oligarchys, and Tribalist Societies as far as I am aware of. I believe I saw once a democratic goverment in the clone wars series.... It was of a planet full of blue people... Anyways why call it a "republic" then? The Roman Republic was just as this one Corrupt, Imperialistc, Inefficient, undemocratic, and doomed (Republic = has a constitution with debate on it thats all basically) You're seriously asking for examples of racism of the Empire? And a handful of individuals keeping illegal slaves is not the same as the Empire having slavery as one of it's primary institutions. Edited February 21, 2012 by OldVengeance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanguardXL Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Issue is: BW always focuses on the Empire as pure bad guys, blood thirsty and murderous killing machines. This is very black/white and not levels of grey. The Sith are fueled by passions, not purely rage. Happyness, Love, Hate, Friendship, etc. Whatever the emotion is, the Sith embrace it fully, where the Jedi attempt to be without emotions which will cloud their decisions. Sadly this tends to translate into: jedi are super nice people (which is pretty untrue) sith are super bad people (which reading cannon books, seems pretty untrue). What is true is the chance of a bad guy sith is much higher, but to portray every sith as a super blood thirsty guy is a bit much I feel. The Sith as Chaos followers. The Imperial Seal is the Chaos symbol (6 arrows radiating outward). Combine that with a strong social Darwinist bent (survival of the fittest) and the Sith as a whole tend to be ruthless, sadistic sociopaths and/or hedonists. The positive passions of Love, Happiness, etc, are seen as weakness by the Sith as a whole, and are either shunned, or the individual killed outright. Conversely, the Jedi are Order and Law. Trained since children to suppress all emotion and passion as not only bad, but as leading to personal destruction by falling to the Dark Side. Told to shun attachments to all beings for the same reasons (they provoke emotions/attachments). Then sent out into the Galaxy to defend the weak and protect the Republic... without having any emotional investment in doing either other than it's what they've been told to do. The result is an order of cold, distant, aloof mystical warriors with stunted emotional growth. When Jedi remain away from the Order for any span of time one of two things occur; they start hedging on the Code, realizing that while a good guideline it is totally impractical and unrealistic for any Jedi dealing with other people on a regular basis. Or they fall back within themselves, becoming the isolated, cold Masters that let the Outer Rim burn during the Mandolorian Wars as they calculated the proper response. Another flaw of Pure Order is that in times of war, the Jedi training of distance and separation does nothing to prepare a Jedi for the horrors of war, resulting in them falling by the hundreds to the Dark Side. Jedi are not good guys. They support Order and Law. They do nothing about slavery on planets where slavery is legal, because on those worlds it is the Law. They support the system. If the system is good, they appear good. If the system has bad elements... they support those as well. Mace Windu was NOT a good guy. Master Vrook was not a good guy. Sith are not necessarily bad guys. They support personal Chaos. Sadly, almost all Sith you see are bad guys... because the good guys get killed by the rest. Survival of the Fittest, and you keep what you kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psloan Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) you are mistaken the sith Embrace emotion both negative and positive as they feel emotion gives them strength. they dont shun anyone for having love or being happy. you make them out to be the grinch. to say the Sith embrace chaos is a bit extreme since they built the largest and most organized army ever seen (well besides the infinite empire that is) The positive passions of Love, Happiness, etc, are seen as weakness by the Sith as a whole, and are either shunned, or the individual killed outright. Edited February 21, 2012 by Psloan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyriaFrost Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 you are mistaken the sith Embrace emotion both negative and positive as they feel emotion gives them strength. they dont shun anyone for having love or being happy. you make them out to be the grinch. Except that they've shown several times that sith are willing to kill the people they love if they become a "hindrance" to them (ie, they end up loving that person more than they love their quest for personal power, or if others exploit their loved one, thereby showing them they have a weakness). While passion is vital, the "softer" emotions DO tend to be held in lower regard. Lust is good, love is iffy, in their view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldVengeance Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Jedi philosophy at it's core is about extreme selflessness. Sith ideals similarly boil down to extreme selfishness. That's why they have they have the views on emotion and love that they do. For the Jedi loving one person may blind someone to protecting and defending others. For Sith loving someone else distracts someone from the quest for more personal power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psloan Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Except that they've shown several times that sith are willing to kill the people they love if they become a "hindrance" to them (ie, they end up loving that person more than they love their quest for personal power, or if others exploit their loved one, thereby showing them they have a weakness). While passion is vital, the "softer" emotions DO tend to be held in lower regard. Lust is good, love is iffy, in their view. and corrupt senators have "shown several times" that they are willing to sacrifice thousands of republic citizens for their own wealth and personal gain. The sith are much more upfront about thier actions and behavors then the slimy replublic . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightmaguz Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Issue is: BW always focuses on the Empire as pure bad guys, blood thirsty and murderous killing machines. This is very black/white and not levels of grey. The Sith are fueled by passions, not purely rage. Happyness, Love, Hate, Friendship, etc. Whatever the emotion is, the Sith embrace it fully, where the Jedi attempt to be without emotions which will cloud their decisions. Sadly this tends to translate into: jedi are super nice people (which is pretty untrue) sith are super bad people (which reading cannon books, seems pretty untrue). What is true is the chance of a bad guy sith is much higher, but to portray every sith as a super blood thirsty guy is a bit much I feel. "channel hatred" "vicious slash" "enrage" "blood frenzy" "berserk" Yeah sure they don't have to use hate, take a look at your skills if you're sith(lightning is an amalgamation of evil energies btw.) and you'll see it's all about hate and negativity not to mention slavery and all the other ****. There's no gray faction here go back to wow if you want that or roll rep like real men do! Or play both sides like everyone should do to see both sides of the stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyriaFrost Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 and corrupt senators have "shown several times" that they are willing to sacrifice thousands of republic citizens for their own wealth and personal gain. The sith are much more upfront about thier actions and behavors then the slimy replublic . What does what the republic does have anything to do with what I said? You said that the sith don't shun love or other positive emotions. I was pointing out how they've shown that a number of them DO. Almost every single one of them is fueled by hatred and fear, not love or warmth. There may well be a few, here and there, that are "lighter". But that's definitely not the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonedzero Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 you are mistaken the sith Embrace emotion both negative and positive as they feel emotion gives them strength. they dont shun anyone for having love or being happy. you make them out to be the grinch. to say the Sith embrace chaos is a bit extreme since they built the largest and most organized army ever seen (well besides the infinite empire that is) the sith have nothing to do with the military efficiency of the empires troops. well maybe to inspire fear of failure, the troops being more terrified of their sith overseers than the enemy. (you see that CONSTANTLY when playing empire btw). ok so maybe they inspire and motivate the troops with the constant fear of death and execution by their own leaders. the sith themselves are selfish and constantly infighting. the sith kill each other more often than they kill any jedi. its common place for a sith to kill their master after they've learned all they can from them. i dunno about you, but if i was in the star wars universe, the last place i'd want to be is in the empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psloan Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 What does what the republic does have anything to do with what I said? im sorry i dont understand this sentence You said that the sith don't shun love or other positive emotions. I was pointing out how they've shown that a number of them DO. Almost every single one of them is fueled by hatred and fear, not love or warmth. you didnt actually point out anything , you cant make a arguement that if i choose to fill myself with apples it means i hate oranges. it just means i prefer apples. you are being very narrow minded (most likely from Republic brain washing) There may well be a few, here and there, that are "lighter". But that's definitely not the norm. but i thought you "every single one of them is fueled by hatred"? and now yoru saying there will be a "few" that are light? seems like you maybe alittle confused.... i replyed in red to answer your post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psloan Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 the sith have nothing to do with the military efficiency of the empires troops. well maybe to inspire fear of failure, the troops being more terrified of their sith overseers than the enemy. (you see that CONSTANTLY when playing empire btw). ok so maybe they inspire and motivate the troops with the constant fear of death and execution by their own leaders. Sith is also a rank in the Empire Military placed higher than most commanding officers although placed alittle lower than a grand moff "depending on the titles of sith" the empire military and Civilians are not terrified of the sith see the timeline, those videos depict empire civilians going into uncharted space with the Empire and remained loyal through the whole ordeal even after the republic beat them , This lead to the birth of the first Grand Moff . which proves the empire infact honor and respect thier sith leaders. the sith themselves are selfish and constantly infighting. the sith kill each other more often than they kill any jedi. its common place for a sith to kill their master after they've learned all they can from them. Fighting in any giant empire is inevitable but this is in no way , shape or form accepted "see Inquistor Story arc" investigations are held and punishments are handed down for parties involved and open killings arent permitted either "see sith warrior starting zone" i dunno about you, but if i was in the star wars universe, the last place i'd want to be is in the empire. Im sure you wouldnt want to be in the empire as it is no place for the weak. answers are in red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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