Ask Elrathion

[chrisronline]

What are your thoughts on the viability of DPS sages in a competitive PvP WZ? What support classes do we need to remain competitive? Which spec offers the most survivability when focused by melee? Should the sages that want to participate and contribute in a competitive PvP environment suck it up and start healing?

 

I haven't participated in 50 PvP yet so I don't know how often sages are focused versus other classes; at < 50, I'm mostly left alone which gives me a skewed perspective on which spec is better.

[Elrathion]

I do see that you're taking TK Wave and Tidal force still. This was something I considered after seeing the 1.2 patch notes, simply inserting disturbance into the rotation whenever I had a PoM proc and MC was on CD (when I normally would have inserted TK Wave), and then using TK Wave whenever TF procced. Is this what you do with that particular spec, or does it use a different play style altogether?

 

Have really loved reading through this thread BTW.

 

Hey. Thank you. I`m happy you enjoy my support to the sage community.

 

Yes that`s pretty much the idea. The build I listed is not the highest dps spec out there, but I feel it does enough damage in relation to it`s utility. Every game I have over 100k effective healing (no noble sacrifise, aoe overheal, rejuv overheal), and often getting to the 200k`s, and usually i get between 200-400k damage w this spec. This is playing it post 1.2 style.

 

So overall no panic guys, we`ll be fine. Ofcourse winning 1v1`s or 2v1`s (my favorite activity in PUG WZ`s) is becoming alot harder.

[Elrathion]

What are your thoughts on the viability of DPS sages in a competitive PvP WZ? What support classes do we need to remain competitive? Which spec offers the most survivability when focused by melee? Should the sages that want to participate and contribute in a competitive PvP environment suck it up and start healing?

 

I haven't participated in 50 PvP yet so I don't know how often sages are focused versus other classes; at < 50, I'm mostly left alone which gives me a skewed perspective on which spec is better.

 

Personally i think there are many classes that can pull off equal or better effective dps, but few classes have the unique ability to go ahead and throw a 3k+ shield out there and continue to merry dps. Combine that with being able to interrupt from a beautiful range, uber dispell ability, great CC and nice damage, and you have a winner. I dont think the inflated aoe damage numbers is what made our class great in the first place, and yes the TK wave does hurt, but we can survive without it.

 

Don`t forget other classes got nerfed too, so that will help.

 

I personally think EVERY sage should HEAL otherwise they suck. I dont mean that you should be heal spec, but if you don`t use your heals on a frequent basis you don`t have a place in competitive pvp. I average 1 death per warzone for a reason...

 

Get level 50, get out there, try different specs, duel alot. No amount of reading can substitute this. Combine your experience with the experience of players like me down here, and I think you`ll become a really good addition to any team.

[elvavwiel]

Just want to point out something that most people tend to forget: force quake also triggers tidal force. While not all maps/situations allow for using force quake, if theres multiple people huddled together (gates, objectives) doing a force quake for a second or 2 might also give you insta cast tk wave.

[JHAT]

Personally i think there are many classes that can pull off equal or better effective dps, but few classes have the unique ability to go ahead and throw a 3k+ shield out there and continue to merry dps. Combine that with being able to interrupt from a beautiful range, uber dispell ability, great CC and nice damage, and you have a winner. I dont think the inflated aoe damage numbers is what made our class great in the first place, and yes the TK wave does hurt, but we can survive without it.

 

Don`t forget other classes got nerfed too, so that will help.

 

I personally think EVERY sage should HEAL otherwise they suck. I dont mean that you should be heal spec, but if you don`t use your heals on a frequent basis you don`t have a place in competitive pvp. I average 1 death per warzone for a reason...

 

Get level 50, get out there, try different specs, duel alot. No amount of reading can substitute this. Combine your experience with the experience of players like me down here, and I think you`ll become a really good addition to any team.

 

Hey Elrathion, I follow this thread pretty closely and I have a couple of questions for you. First, which class do you think will consistently carry ranked WZs in 1.2? And, more on frequently healing as you said in this post. Do you mean running away to heal and re-engage or throwing out heals on teammates?

[Elrathion]

Just want to point out something that most people tend to forget: force quake also triggers tidal force. While not all maps/situations allow for using force quake, if theres multiple people huddled together (gates, objectives) doing a force quake for a second or 2 might also give you insta cast tk wave.

 

True, but unless there is really ALOT of sith bunched together, I find the use of force quake more trowards artificial score boost then actually doing something real. The name of the game is burst down the healers and focus targets, it`s not padding some sith with 200-300 each.

[Elrathion]

Hey Elrathion, I follow this thread pretty closely and I have a couple of questions for you. First, which class do you think will consistently carry ranked WZs in 1.2? And, more on frequently healing as you said in this post. Do you mean running away to heal and re-engage or throwing out heals on teammates?

 

The changes of 1.2 are still in flux so the jury isn`t competely out there. However I will say that unless bioware changes things, I think that sith warriors are going to dominate and poop on everything they see.

 

Allready in our server we`re starting to see premades with 4 sith warriors. They jump one target in chain, it dies instant, they move to the next. There is ABSOLUTELY 0 hope for me to escape this, except to never be in their leap sight. I just get perma cc`d. It does`t even have to be 4. One great sith warrior with some assist dps and its bye bye, unless I can recieve heals from elsewhere. (especially refering to jugg`s here, atm sentintels are easier, but who knows how the balance changes will affect this)

 

Here is a reality check for bioware though. Today I ran a couple of duels vs a near battlemaster guardian who knows his class very very well. Obviously I outgear him (full bm). Playing post 1.2 style, I beat him with !700! hp. This goes to say that I KITED HIM PERFECTLY (perma force slow up, move cast w telek wave), I at least resetted the fight 2 times in my favor using my cc to heal to FULL. This DEEPLY disturbed me. Because when he`s equal gear, I fear I might draw the short end of the stick. All fights were close, ending in my favor between 700 and 2-3k.

 

About healing: Both.

 

I always closely monitor the health of my allies. A first step is shielding them, re-engaging your target. A second is force pull to you if melee is on him. cast a small heal. If they re-engage your target, force wave and imob for 5s : free heal festival.

About healing yourself: Don`t wait till your nearly dead, put yourself on good positions, places where you know ONE CC can clear the path for you and you can get back up. If you have to sprint far to a place where you can heal its harder. Sometimes I spotheal even with dps on me. If they interrupt my benevolence, I pop force potency and cast my big heals for 5k each. SAMBA -_- Once you get used to pvp healing as a dps, you`ll notice how hard you can make it for sith to kill you hehe

[stealthdrow]

 

Here is a reality check for bioware though. Today I ran a couple of duels vs a near battlemaster guardian who knows his class very very well. Obviously I outgear him (full bm). Playing post 1.2 style, I beat him with !700! hp. This goes to say that I KITED HIM PERFECTLY (perma force slow up, move cast w telek wave), I at least resetted the fight 2 times in my favor using my cc to heal to FULL. This DEEPLY disturbed me. Because when he`s equal gear, I fear I might draw the short end of the stick. All fights were close, ending in my favor between 700 and 2-3k.

 

 

By perfect kite, do you mean a perfect 5-10 kite?

Edited March 21, 2012 by stealthdrow

[Elrathion]

just far enough not to be interrupted and just close enough not to be lept to -_-

In other words free damage without getting any back for several seconds

[DeusTrinitas]

Elrathion,

 

There's been a ton of great info in this thread, so thank you for taking the time to answer questions.

 

I know your focus has been mostly on PvP, but what looks to be the go-to spec for DPS Sages for endgame PvE post-1.2?

[Elrathion]

Elrathion,

 

There's been a ton of great info in this thread, so thank you for taking the time to answer questions.

 

I know your focus has been mostly on PvP, but what looks to be the go-to spec for DPS Sages for endgame PvE post-1.2?

 

That`s fairly straightforward my friend. As dual dipping hasn`t been fixed, you`re looking at 1-12-28 for most dps.

[JHAT]

Hey thanks for getting back to me on my questions Elrathion.

 

Do you by any chance have any footage of you playing in a WZ or dueling?

[Elrathion]

Hey thanks for getting back to me on my questions Elrathion.

 

Do you by any chance have any footage of you playing in a WZ or dueling?

 

Right now I`m in the US on holidays. Come rated wz`s I`ll try to get some footage or stream going. The thing is I`m not really much of an editor, so it won`t be a bells and whistles kind of thing like some of the nice video`s out there -.-

[Cempa]

I have gotten myself into a mindset that 'Kinitic Collapse' is the only way I can PvP and not die every time a stealth or tank in dos gear or a marauder goes for me.

 

I notice you PvP with Mend Wounds thus allowing you survive and outlast.

 

If you did not have Mend Wounds would you be better or worse at PvP?

[Elrathion]

I have gotten myself into a mindset that 'Kinitic Collapse' is the only way I can PvP and not die every time a stealth or tank in dos gear or a marauder goes for me.

 

I notice you PvP with Mend Wounds thus allowing you survive and outlast.

 

If you did not have Mend Wounds would you be better or worse at PvP?

 

Hey. I do agree the TK tree offers a lot in terms of survivability against melee train. I have to say the key is practise practise practise. I feel so comfortable with it right now that I`m almost feeling like I can play the class the way I want it.

 

This is what I`m experimenting with: mental alacrity, alacrity adrenal, alacrity relic. The latter two might be overkill.

 

I`m currently running a 8-33-0 or a 8-31-2. (I haven`t decided yet)

So far I`ve been dueling assassins, juggs, marauders and healed STRAIGHT in their face w my dps spec. Correctly using my force potency for healing crits, combined w clutch 1.8s cast time heals has allowed me to outheal their burst and set up my bursts correctly. The only downside it`s resource intensive.

 

In warzones, I feel I can sit back as a sniper type and spam TK wave/distrubance/ult/into wave procs and do quite a bit of damage. Whenever possible I interrupt damage dealers and when I see our healers can`t handle the pressure, I spotheal until they are out of the weeds. When people train me, I often feel I can either occupy 2-3 long enough for my buddies to kill others before I die (sith usually lose when I`m the target cse they waste too much time, unless its premade vs PUG -.-)

 

I will write an extensive report on this once I feel comfortable enough posting this fully.

I know this isn`t everyone`s cup of cake (some just want dps, it`s a nice consideration)

 

As far as mend wounds, I only spec into it when I`m heavy seer, I don`t particulary feel it`s a must to survive at all. Force wake is however maybe the best ability in all our trees combined. Once you master your resolve bar, you really can outmanuver anyone.

[Boomer-]

How do you beat good marauders?

 

Mind you I can easily kill most of them on the server but its impossible to kill a few of the really good ones. Assuming equal gear and skill my theory is a sage cannot win a fight against a marauder.

 

I'm balance spec, I start off with: force potency, power relic, power adrenal, force in balance, sever force, run away and weaken mind, telekinetic throw until instant mind crush, force slow, knowckback, reapply dots, force in balance, etc. once I'm at 50% I stun him and try and heal. Most times it gets interrupted.

 

What else can I do to tip the fight in my favor?

[CatalystTallik]

Please give me opinions on this spec, I just posted a thread on it.

22/7/12 pvp hybrid dps/heal sage spec.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=375592

[Elrathion]

How do you beat good marauders?

 

Mind you I can easily kill most of them on the server but its impossible to kill a few of the really good ones. Assuming equal gear and skill my theory is a sage cannot win a fight against a marauder.

 

I'm balance spec, I start off with: force potency, power relic, power adrenal, force in balance, sever force, run away and weaken mind, telekinetic throw until instant mind crush, force slow, knowckback, reapply dots, force in balance, etc. once I'm at 50% I stun him and try and heal. Most times it gets interrupted.

 

What else can I do to tip the fight in my favor?

 

I try to win fights vs Marauders in two ways. First is to pressure them enough to make him pop his CDs, then proceed to cc and recover whereafter I reopen.

Second is to deny him a lot of force generation by good kite and heal, followed by selected moments of burst.I have to add that va the best marauders average fights can last over 4 mins and I can't always get more then a 50 percent win ratio. Still, mostly I feel like those fights I made small mistakes which make me lose

 

What helps me a lot is having the stalker set, and as crazy as you might think me, I very often waste it on benevolence deliverance crits rather then offensive damage. It's often enough to heal up full between a cc cycle. As balance, I'd often cast a small heal in between a 2s root and proceed to move a little closer or further, to continue the kite. Don't wait till low to start healing. You'll never recover. The key is to always stay at a healthy health advantage

Edited March 24, 2012 by Elrathion

[Plowmore]

Hey Elrathion, long time reader, first time poster. I play a warhero sage in remodded stalker bm gear. I'm prepping for rated warzones and trying to figure out how to maximize my usefulness since I probably wont be a healer (we have plenty of them). We have pretty strong dps (two sentinels and a gunslinger), two healers (sage+command), two tanks for guarding healers/ball carriers (guardian+shadow) and me. I really like all the cc abilities a sage that is not focused on healing can bring to the table, but I don't want to nerf my damage to the point where I'm not really contributing.

 

The builds I'm currently considering are:

Hybrid 2/21/18

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600MZfc0rbMr0zZcMcRsMz.1

Figured this spec makes me never oom and nets me basically all the awesome cc abilities of both trees (aside from sever force) but may lack damage.

 

8/31/2 telekinetic

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600GhZdsbrzRrhtzZ0M.1

a spec you mentioned earlier, I've been trying it and really liking the on demand burst dmg/healing capabilities (mental alacrity awesome).

 

3/7/31 Balance

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600hZbc0MZcMfRsMkrfz.1

My favorite dueling spec, I'm not sure how I feel about it for rated if they have a good purger. After testing it against the others it feels a little lackluster in overall contribution to warzones when compared to the other specs.

 

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

Note: Neat trick with kinetic collapse is you can manually click your bubble off to activate the aoe mezz. We've been messing around with it a bit in our premades and its part of what's really leaning me toward hybrid or full telekinetic.

[Cormacus]

Allready in our server we`re starting to see premades with 4 sith warriors. They jump one target in chain, it dies instant, they move to the next. There is ABSOLUTELY 0 hope for me to escape this, except to never be in their leap sight. I just get perma cc`d. It does`t even have to be 4. One great sith warrior with some assist dps and its bye bye, unless I can recieve heals from elsewhere. (especially refering to jugg`s here, atm sentintels are easier, but who knows how the balance changes will affect this)

 

I've started to see the same on our EU server (The Red Eclipse), you can quite often end up against a pre-made team with 4 Marauders or Juggernauts from the same guild. They move from target to target, taking everyone down one at a time. Nothing you can do about it other than run away. That sad thing is they don't even have to rush, they do it in their own time.

[Ruuprect]

I've started to see the same on our EU server (The Red Eclipse), you can quite often end up against a pre-made team with 4 Marauders or Juggernauts from the same guild. They move from target to target, taking everyone down one at a time. Nothing you can do about it other than run away. That sad thing is they don't even have to rush, they do it in their own time.

 

There are 2 guilds on the imp side that run premades like this. You are best off just leaving if you run into this as there is now way to counter this setup, this is worse than having 2 heals + 2 tanks, thier burst is so big you cannot even heal the person being focused. I cant wait for the buff to warriors/knights after 1.2, this will be the only setup for ranked WZ, 4-6 maur/juggs, and a heal or 3(not sage). This will be unbeatable. I wish I had rolled a sentinel.

[Elrathion]

There are 2 guilds on the imp side that run premades like this. You are best off just leaving if you run into this as there is now way to counter this setup, this is worse than having 2 heals + 2 tanks, thier burst is so big you cannot even heal the person being focused. I cant wait for the buff to warriors/knights after 1.2, this will be the only setup for ranked WZ, 4-6 maur/juggs, and a heal or 3(not sage). This will be unbeatable. I wish I had rolled a sentinel.

 

The saving grace for me is that our premades usually whipe them pretty hard in objective points when they do that *.* At least I know what`s comming and do my best to make the death as long and painful for them as possible, cse in the end they do lose out on 4 people to get 1 -.- Anything I can do to take them out of the game as punishment I will.

 

I don`t wish I rerolled though... in the end some of the best melees dont warzone without a pocket healer, whereas I always dominate by myself. I feel way more flexible in roles then them. However the imbalance is slightly ticking me off -.-

[Ruuprect]

The saving grace for me is that our premades usually whipe them pretty hard in objective points when they do that *.* At least I know what`s comming and do my best to make the death as long and painful for them as possible, cse in the end they do lose out on 4 people to get 1 -.- Anything I can do to take them out of the game as punishment I will.

 

I don`t wish I rerolled though... in the end some of the best melees dont warzone without a pocket healer, whereas I always dominate by myself. I feel way more flexible in roles then them. However the imbalance is slightly ticking me off -.-

 

Dont wish I had rerolled just wish I had started a sentinel alt a long time ago. The problem I have is if 4 maur/jugs all focus me I am dead in 1 gcd without any chance to heal. I have been solo queueing a lot lately. In a premade it helps a little as I am usually guarded and am harder to kill and I can usually get a couple of them to chase me for a bit. But a good group with well played mauras/juggs is near unbeatable. There are a lot of fail mauras and they are easy to dispatch but a good one with good gear and all cd's is near impossible. I cant complain though I am in a full PvE heal spec until we get dual spec, I would probably do much better in a pvp spec but hate to keep respeccing. I did run a pvp spec for a while and was able to get good maur down to about 25% before I died and rarely was able to kill one, a good one anyway. I find it really hard to kite them, they have a lot of cc and interupts.

[Elrathion]

Hey Elrathion, long time reader, first time poster. I play a warhero sage in remodded stalker bm gear. I'm prepping for rated warzones and trying to figure out how to maximize my usefulness since I probably wont be a healer (we have plenty of them). We have pretty strong dps (two sentinels and a gunslinger), two healers (sage+command), two tanks for guarding healers/ball carriers (guardian+shadow) and me. I really like all the cc abilities a sage that is not focused on healing can bring to the table, but I don't want to nerf my damage to the point where I'm not really contributing.

 

The builds I'm currently considering are:

Hybrid 2/21/18

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600MZfc0rbMr0zZcMcRsMz.1

Figured this spec makes me never oom and nets me basically all the awesome cc abilities of both trees (aside from sever force) but may lack damage.

 

8/31/2 telekinetic

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600GhZdsbrzRrhtzZ0M.1

a spec you mentioned earlier, I've been trying it and really liking the on demand burst dmg/healing capabilities (mental alacrity awesome).

 

3/7/31 Balance

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600hZbc0MZcMfRsMkrfz.1

My favorite dueling spec, I'm not sure how I feel about it for rated if they have a good purger. After testing it against the others it feels a little lackluster in overall contribution to warzones when compared to the other specs.

 

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

Note: Neat trick with kinetic collapse is you can manually click your bubble off to activate the aoe mezz. We've been messing around with it a bit in our premades and its part of what's really leaning me toward hybrid or full telekinetic.

 

I agree with the numbers, in fact when I saw it I was like damn this guy has read my mind for the next patch. That being said personally I would make some different talent choices.

 

2-21-18

 

This spec is one of my favourites in terms of shear utility. Personally, I feel just one point 1 effussion has never left me out of force. Secondly, by not getting tidal force, you miss out on quite some extra damage. It actually DOES proc ALOT when you spam tk throw and disturbance. Not by the same frequency as pure POM + wave, but still alot. Force storm also tends to proc it nearly instantly when you land one tick on a big group.

 

What are the options then? Perhaps drop one point in effussion in favor of TK wave, and then you come at the option of losing one point in blackout OR in psychic projection.

 

OR you could go without force lift. This is basically a duel talent mostly for me. I don`t feel I need it to survive anywhere else, as my force wake + collapse seems all the cc I need in most warzones.

 

I appreciate the idea of full utility spec, but I feel your nerfing your damage too much for just getting 1s extra interrupt.

 

8-31-2

 

This is how I run it typically:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600GhZfcbbdRrutz.1

 

OR

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600GhbZfcb0dRrutz.1

 

Personally I don`t see the need in your spec for minds eye if you`re not going psychic project, I don`t even see it at all as necc. I like the burst that psychic project offers, and even though you can`t duel dip, it still is an awesome burst.

 

OR

 

balance:

 

Personal flavor I would never play balance without -0.5s cast time on diliverance as a OH CRAP option -.- It`s so easy to bait a use of force of will into instant force lift. That`s 8s free cast heals. You can get 3*2.5 full heals off, potentially w a force potency, that`s full hp right there. however 3x3=9, you lose one heal off your cycle. 2 percent crit wouldnt wanna make me waste my survivability.

 

Personally I agree with the point that burst is deffinatly moot, and damage w dispellers is also an issue. In fact I found that you actually have LESS survivability in premades w this spec, because of your lack of the defensive cd`s that TK has.

 

Another suggested spec:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600MZfc0MdRrhZcMcRs0z.1

 

This spec is the closest we have to the strong hybrid we used to know. Its both powerful 1v1 as in groups.

 

A little clutch I use when I don`t run mental alacrity is adrenal + relic. It has about the same 20 percent cd reduction on your spells w a bit longer uptime (5s). As the game progresses, I feel I need and can stay alive longer to win fights even in impossible odds, and the extra damage would just not make as much a difference.

 

Yesterday I got jumped by a BM jugg who was an alt of a WarHero Sorcerer. I immediately got dropped down to 40 percent. Incidentely, this guy was on our vent, and he was saying run, little girl, run, as I tried to CC him and get back in the fight. While it took me about a minute, I finally got his force of will on cd, and got a full lenght force potency + 3 smack heal crits off in 6s. 1.9-1.8s cast time each.

 

He was now at 50 percent. Weaken mind on him dual dip + disturbance + TK wave proc, he was at 5 percent. GG. During this fight, had I used offensive adrenals, etc, it was a sure death for me.

[NothingWorks]

I try to win fights vs Marauders in two ways. First is to pressure them enough to make him pop his CDs, then proceed to cc and recover whereafter I reopen.

Second is to deny him a lot of force generation by good kite and heal, followed by selected moments of burst.I have to add that va the best marauders average fights can last over 4 mins and I can't always get more then a 50 percent win ratio. Still, mostly I feel like those fights I made small mistakes which make me lose

 

What helps me a lot is having the stalker set, and as crazy as you might think me, I very often waste it on benevolence deliverance crits rather then offensive damage. It's often enough to heal up full between a cc cycle. As balance, I'd often cast a small heal in between a 2s root and proceed to move a little closer or further, to continue the kite. Don't wait till low to start healing. You'll never recover. The key is to always stay at a healthy health advantage

 

Greetings Elrathion. I'm an avid reader of this thread. Your advice has improved my game significantly. Thank you for sharing your wisdom.

 

I am currently full balance with 8 points in the sage tree. (reduced push back on heals)

 

Sentinels & Marauders are giving me a real tough time. They always seem to have a leap available when I try kiting. If it is not too much trouble, I was wondering if you could give us a breakdown of say the first 30 seconds of battle in a "He does that, I do this" type of scenario? Let's assume he starts the fight with his 10m Zealot Leap...

 

Cheers!