I'm pretty sure none of the top guild teams on the bastion run the comp you're talking about. Strictly Business, A-Team, Hey Im MVP, Meatlumps... none of them run this comp.

Do any of you play ranked at all? DPS meters don't determine the value you've given your team. Yes, you should put out decent dps, and as a 3/7/31 (which if you're not a healer is pretty much THE spec for a serious ranked dps sage), you put out good damage, good cc, can purge awe/fear and cyclone/force lift as well as force dots, throw out emergency bubble heals, pull your ranged dps or healers away from their dps, have one of the largest, most sustainable aoes to keep people from capping in novare/voidstar and even civil war, and can root pretty regularly. Yes you are squishy. Yes if you get pain-trained by 3 maras and a powertech you'll probably die. The thing is, while sage is particularly squishy, we have a ton of utility. A dps sage in a high dps comp is perfectly viable for ranked right now. If they raise our dps while we can still do all these things, the highly skilled sages will be overpowered.

I guess you're not trolling like I originally assumed. Force lift works on pvp, and it's spectacularly good, particularly if you have containment, just make sure you haven't dotted your cc target. I particularly like baiting a cc breaker with my 5 second stun, then if they break it instant cast force lift to take them out of the fight for 8 seconds, often enough time to cap a node, score a hutball or take out their friend. For tumult, if you're low level and pvping I could see where you might want some more damage moves, but at level 50 you have so many abilities that there should pretty much never be a time when you have nothing to use. As for your cloud mind recommendation, if it's going to do anything I'd say make it reduce accuracy a short duration, but I think it's pretty unnecessary. In regards to your recommendation: a good player or premade will use focus targeting and instantly reacquire you as a target while a bad player is already bad. Since part of what makes sage viable is our cc abilities (aoe push that can attach roots if specced for it, ranged stun and force lift) filling up an enemy's resolve bar for the possibility of making them not target you for a second is not a good idea.

Fun thing to do as balance in 4 piece stalker gear: pop force potency/relic/adrenal with FiB, project and instant cast mind crush for around 8.5-9k burst from a spec people dont think will be bursty. More fun: use rescue to pull your teammate who is trying to help the other team's premade score into the fire in huttball.

Hey Elrathion, I was wondering what spec you've been running in premades these days. I've been playing an aggressive 3/7/31(3 in clamoring force) and can reliably burst for around 8.5k (FiB, Project and Mind Crush) with stalker 4peice force potency and power adrenal/relic, not including dot damage (I'm in full bm +augmented WH chest/boots). I tend not to mind force management issues because between all my passive self healing and the rakata medpac I feel comfortable using noble sacrifice in a pinch. Have you noticed a hybrid or tele spec that can put out heavy burst while maintaining decent sustained damage and cc? I played full tele for a while, but I essentially felt like I was playing a hybrid healer/dps who was heavily cooldown dependent to excel at either, and while disturbance isn't terrible, it's simply not as good. Not to mention I really felt the loss of instant lift in skirmishes. Secondly, I was wondering about your take on professions. I was considering going cybertech for extra aoe cc effects, but it's hard for me to justify the loss of my adrenal/medpac/stim. Yes I know I can get persisting blue stims and warzone medpacs, but since it's a bit of a hassle to switch my professions back and forth I'm trying to decide if it's worth it. Thanks for this thread btw, it's the most productive one I've seen on the forums.

I watched this video and was really surprised since when I'm in pvp groups with you all I see you do is grab your 4 medals then afk in stealth. Neat work with the freighter flyby though.

Hear, hear. I'm actually a bit stoked for the new nerfs cause it justifies me launching giant force bubbles at people while still being able to cc, root, and aoe disable with impunity. We're a hybrid class, not a pure dps class, we should not be able to keep up in pure damage output with the all out dpsers like sentinel and snipers. Even so we bring a lot to the table if we're smart about our play style and talent choices. While we may have lost a bit of potential damage from these nerfs, they have also greatly raised the skill ceiling of the class and good players will really start standing out.

Hey, thanks for getting back to me quickly and in such detail. I was going to use quotes but if I quoted all you said it'd be this huge wall of text and nobody wants that. *Note: lets be honest, I write wordily, this is going to be a huge wall of text. I read over your feedback, and as I was sick today, I spend most of my time (and credits) trying out the modified specs. Figured I'd post my findings and maybe compare notes. 2/21/18 Dropping 1 point in effusion and blockout for tk-wave and tidal force really made the difference in damage. Not just damage numbers, but more importantly burst damage for bringing down a key enemy (healer/ball carrier during force stun) quickly. I also tried it without containment. While solo queuing it was fine, but when on vent with my 4-6man team (that's about all we can reliably get into a wz right now) the ability to completely remove an enemy from the relevant portion of a fight was huge whether it was capping in civil war, removing a healer in huttball, or keeping a tank from taunting in voidstar and pushing their healer back out of guard range (this instance was premade vs premade). Being able to put out that much control with a marauder on me has sold me on instant lift for this spec. 8/33/0 -edited from 8/31/2 I really like your additions/changes to this spec. For some reason I've been wed to Will of the Jedi even though it's not as necessary with battlemaster gear as say, back when I had centurion stuff. While it's a nice boost, changing it to psychic projection has been really clutch in the overall speed of my gameplay, giving me another faster tool to react or assault with. My big question on this one is Telekinetic Defense. I know on paper a premade should not need the extra absorb from it, but I find in practice that there are times when the healers are occupied and I need to fend for myself. Also I tend to use Kinetic Collapse proactively by manually clicking it off to pop the aoe mez when it's most advantageous. I found that without the points in TK Defense I'd sometimes end up blowing my shield due to damage instead of popping it (yes when I'm getting focused it pops on it's own, but usually when it's a single dps on me I can choose when to pop it). I was thinking with two in effusion, I could probably get away with just one in Inner Strength. I haven't gotten to test it as much as I'd like but the little I've done I've liked quite a bit. 2/23/16 I was having issues with this spec until I finished making my alacrity rakata adrenal and bought the alacrity relic. You're right, they're INSANELY GOOD as a defensive cooldown. I still felt not having Foresight (from the 8/33/0 spec), when I had more than one person on me or couldn't avoid being hit. At first I was going to give a negative review about this spec but the more I played it with my adrenal/relic as defensive instead of offensive, the more I began to like it. Random Stuff: Sentinels/Mauraders are being buffed. Currently I find that a well played marauder/sentinel is the most problematic for me. Most of their damage comes from burn/bleed. I'm considering putting 2 points into Mind Ward if I'm going that far into Balance. I've been dueling the best sentinels on my server recently and they all agree that the majority of their damage is dot based. A surprising amount of damage from other classes seems to be dot based too, and while I can purge the force effects, being able to ignore them for a few GCDs might be really nice. If you have tested builds with Mind Ward I'd love to hear what your experience with it has been, and I plan to try it out soon.

If this is for pvp there are a number of serious problems. First off, Haunted Dreams is infinitely better than Oppressing Force. The only reason you would ever take Oppressing Force instead of Huanted Dreams would be if you did not go far up the tree enough to access HD. Problem 2 is that chain lightning is not worth it unless you are going to be spamming some lightning strikes for the lightning storm proc, which your build should probably never be doing since you took Madness and optimized force lightning. Third issue is that you never want to have 1 point in electric bindings. It's an amazing talent, one of my favorites, but you either want 2 points or none at all. Nitpicky detail, I'd put 1 more into Suppression especially if you do end up taking Haunted Dreams Nitpicky detail #2: not dropping 2 points in dark mending basically makes it impossible for you to off heal in a clutch circumstance. Wont matter much in pugs, will in premades. Also if you don't have really high crit already seeping darkness is really nice. IF you have your heart set on not taking Haunted Dreams and keeping Chain Lightning, then you really NEED to pick up Polarity Shift because those 10 seconds you have it popped will be basically the only time you get to cast a Chain Lightning or Cyclone without getting interrupted (although you'll probably still get interrupted since you dont have subversion and chain lightning will take too long due to pushback)

Hey Elrathion, long time reader, first time poster. I play a warhero sage in remodded stalker bm gear. I'm prepping for rated warzones and trying to figure out how to maximize my usefulness since I probably wont be a healer (we have plenty of them). We have pretty strong dps (two sentinels and a gunslinger), two healers (sage+command), two tanks for guarding healers/ball carriers (guardian+shadow) and me. I really like all the cc abilities a sage that is not focused on healing can bring to the table, but I don't want to nerf my damage to the point where I'm not really contributing. The builds I'm currently considering are: Hybrid 2/21/18 http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600MZfc0rbMr0zZcMcRsMz.1 Figured this spec makes me never oom and nets me basically all the awesome cc abilities of both trees (aside from sever force) but may lack damage. 8/31/2 telekinetic http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600GhZdsbrzRrhtzZ0M.1 a spec you mentioned earlier, I've been trying it and really liking the on demand burst dmg/healing capabilities (mental alacrity awesome). 3/7/31 Balance http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600hZbc0MZcMfRsMkrfz.1 My favorite dueling spec, I'm not sure how I feel about it for rated if they have a good purger. After testing it against the others it feels a little lackluster in overall contribution to warzones when compared to the other specs. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Note: Neat trick with kinetic collapse is you can manually click your bubble off to activate the aoe mezz. We've been messing around with it a bit in our premades and its part of what's really leaning me toward hybrid or full telekinetic.

The idea behind this spec is that sages in 1.2 will not put out the same damage as a well played dps class. Maybe overall warzone numbers can be padded, but we lack the ability to burn someone down quickly. Instead I'm trying to figure out how to maximize my utility in rated WZs where we'll likely be running 2 healers, 2 tanks for guard, 3 hard dps classes (probably 2 sentinels and a gunslinger) and yours truly. So my job is to control the battle field, and for that I've just started playtesting this spec when 6-7queing with the guild. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600RZfc0rbMbZcrcRsMz.1 Basically I try and grab all the goodies that can make sages really annoying. 2-5 root on knock back, kinetic collapse, extra 2 seconds on lockout from interrupt, 10 seconds off force stun cd and 15 off instant force lift, FiB to stop capping. So far it seems to be pretty effective at disrupting the other team, but not as strong as a full balance spec for single target lock down. Anyone else tried something like this? Thoughts? recommendations? trolling?

A good sentinel/marauder is a really difficult match up, especially if they have all their cool downs. I usually put force slow on them first, then sever as they start getting close (or if they charge, pushback then sever). If you can, save your stun for when you get them low, then pop your relic/adrenal/force potency to burst them down in the stun so they cant use guarded by the force, otherwise cyclone them when they pop it. My experience is I have to pop my ccs at exactly the right time or I'm toast. If you catch them without their cds you can just kite them into oblivion. Luckily most marauders are really bad players. I was actually looking into trying a 21/0/18 spec for dueling them, purging their burns is really clutch and having another heal helps deal with their interrupts. You'd still have instant force lift, FiB and some ok damage.

I play a 50 sage and have spent a couple million credits on respeccs playing full balance(madness), different versions of the hybrid spec, and healing. Balance is a dot based control spec and it's pretty damn good at that role. In huttball I can lockdown a ball carrier long enough for my dps teammates to take them down while ccing a healer. Between Sever Force, Force Slow, pebbles, stun, lift, and a ranged interrupt, if I'm focusing on locking someone down, they wont escape. As far as I can tell a full balance spec has been mostly buffed in the new patch, give it a try before you arbitrarily threaten to quit the game. What I'll miss most about losing the hybrid viability is losing blockout since I can't justify losing sever force without instacast tk waves. Hybrid dps was quite strong in pressuring healers with it's massive aoe damage in the right situations. It was also spectacular at epeen enlargement for players who focused purely on stat padding. While we wont have quite the same damage output (and to be honest, I'm relatively certain that high single target burst dps [not a sage's area of expertise to begin with] as well as powerful control abilities [our forte] will be more important in rated WZs than aoe blasting), we're probably the best utility class out there right now. I cant imagine rated warzones not wanting one or two sage/sorcs on their team.

Uh, you cant be charged in cover, you cant be interrupted while in cover, and you have entrench to keep from being removed from cover or cced in any way. Gunslingers/snipers are a sweet class with incredible damage and strong defensive cooldowns. Too bad they cant stealth like the OP said.

What do we value in pvp? Control/cc ability, mobility, survivability and damage output. Hybrid vs full TK CC: Hybrid adds instant cast cyclone that stuns for 2 seconds on breaking. This is a HUGE upgrade to our cc ability from a cyclone that takes 2 seconds to cast, can be interrupted, and does not stun on breaking. When capping a node with a teammate or 2v1ing you can force stun to bait the ccbreaker and then instant cyclone during the animation from ccbreaker, which should net between 8 to 11 seconds of cc. You simply cant do this against a competent player as full tk. Full TK does have "Kinetic Collapse" as an option. This option is a bit sub par because we have no means of actively breaking our shield, therefore it is a completely reactive and uncontrollable power that can sometimes fill a resolve bar when we'd really rather it didn't. Also as a hybrid you do still have access to this talent if you really want it, but I don't recommend it. Mobility: Somebody already laid down a comparison of how basically everything the hybrid spec does is instant cast, except tk throw (although they forgot to add in cyclone). This is also a huge deal, especially in huttball, where you're going to want to be getting into position to pull the ball carrier or get a strategic pass. Also, as mentioned breaking tk throw simply makes it inefficient instead of completely negating it. Also as mentioned earlier, a big part of sage survival is kiting and LoSing, which you simply cannot do while maintaining a damage output as full TK. In regards to the people who claim Full TK is a "turret" in pvp. Full tk is wildly incompetent in that role when compared to a sniper/gunslinger. I have a 50 sniper, my opening attack crits for over 5k regularly, with a 3k instant followthrough shot. More importantly, snipers can be turrets because while in cover they are uninterruptible. When I see a TK sage on my sage or sniper I see an instant kill, as everything that actually does damage can interrupted. Survivability: Hybrid and full TK are similar in basic survivability. They both have the same 20% buff to shield. Full TK has the root on pushback, which is nice but can be picked up by hybrids as well and is not as strong as say force sever (full balance spec), because forced movement is negated by resolve and stops the root from triggering. When we take into account the skill level of a player, being able to LoS and kite more effectively as a hybrid greatly increases their survivability. Damage output: once again, the downfall of Full TK is their susceptibility to control and interrupts. Also, not having access to force in balance greatly reduces burst potential from Pressence of Mind TKwave+Force in balance with relic+adrenal+force potency for around 7k+ aoe damage. As others have said, the hybrid spec pressures the healers of the other team with hefty aoe damage that tk cant duplicate. Some other perks of hybrid is the force regen mechanic on tk throw, which I find much stronger than the stacking passive from disturbance.

I was fooling around with torhead and realized that if you're willing to sacrifice the top end talents, you can get a lot of enhancement for snipe. Snap Shot instant snipe on entering cover, stroke of genius, instant snipe following cover pulse, calculated pursuit gives out of cover snipe, and reactive shots allows for a quick ambush following snipe crits, which you should be getting a lot of. Aside from that mostly cc ability enhancers. A build like this probably loses too much from not going deep into a tree, but I was curious if anyone had tried something like this? http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#400bsrbdMZrcbMkMMZGb.1 I didn't run any numbers but it seems like the burst potential might be decent with two reliable instant snipes.