Pros and Cons of Dual Advanced Classes

[Reynnas]

Here is my solution. Do away with advanced classes completely. Make a story line for every single advanced class.

 

That could also work, but people would complain about development time being taken away from things that they enjoy. A much less development intensive solution is allowing the respeccing of this classes.

[tazdirector]

Just because its picked at level 10 doesn't make it a talent choice. If ACs were picked at level 1, we wouldn't be arguing about this?

 

In some ways, I agree with you...if AC selection was made at the character screen, I think my argument would lose some foundation. But, we don't. We pick it at level 10.

 

One of your benchmark reasons is you don't want to re-level 10 levels?

 

Where do I say the BENCHMARK reason is that I don't want to re-level? My argument has nothing to do with re-leveling, it has everything to do with the process by which players select specializations. If the choice was at level 8 or 5 or 2, I'd have the same argument...in it's current state, selecting ACs is much more like selecting a Talent Spec than it is a CORE Class.

 

As an Assassin you get stealth and as a Sorcerer you gain healing skills. That's a substantial difference. Casters enter combat by casting a spell. Melee enter combat by running or leaping into it. In WoW, seven classes use mana, are they all the same class? Resources do not define a class.

 

I absolutely love the WoW comparisons. Last I checked, an Enhancement Shaman is melee, an Elemental Shaman is a ranged caster and Resto Shaman is a healer. Pretty substantial differences and yet all within the same CORE CLASS. Do they play differently? Of course! Do they use different rotations? You betcha. Are they the same CORE class? Yup.

 

By the way, I completely agree that resources do not define a class. So what does?

 

Perhaps the EXACT same abilities? A shared TALENT TREE? How about the use of the exact same abilities even WITHIN different ACs? Last I checked, both Prototype Powertechs and Arsenal Mercenary's use Death from Above in AOE situations and...gasp...they're not even in the same AC, but they ARE in the same Core Class.

 

See what I mean? We're not talking rogues and mages here, we're talking SPECIALIZATIONS within a class.

 

At it's CORE, A Powertech and a Mercenary are Bounty Hunters....Marauders and Juggernauts are Sith Warriors. You cannot argue against that as long as both ACs train the same base skills and a Talent Tree.

 

FACT!! There is no viable reason to allow it!! Convenient and easy are not reasons..

 

Please re-read my post. Convenience and easy are not listed as reasons.

 

FACT!! The vast majority of the players don't want it..

 

Official poll and statistics backing up said "Fact"?

 

FACT!!! Reguardless how may feel about or like or dislike it, or even disagree with it.. Your AC is you class!! Bioware says so and they are the only one with the authority to say otherwise.. That is simply a fact!! It is indesputable.. There isn't a single word to the contrary..

 

Take a look at that little forum heading...it says SUGGESTIONS. Just because Bioware says they have no plans, doesn't mean they can't change their minds.

 

And by the way, if the community doesn't have the opportunity to point out when the devs make a bad decision, we're all in for a long haul. Developers are people and sometimes the decisions they make are in a vacuum of sorts.

 

Please don't take this as a Bioware bash...I think they've created a wonderful game. I'm just pointing out what I believe to be an err in their judgment. I'm not expecting the devs to call me or write me a letter, but these forums are used to gauge the player base. The more we talk about this issue and more folks bring up this particular issue, the better chance they're re-evaluate

 

There is no written in stone standard for what is and isn't a class.. Nor should people be making up such rules to suit their need or views..

 

But aren't you trying to say that there is in your /FACT statements? You are right, there is no written stone standard of what is and isn't a class...which is EXACTLY the reason why we're bringing this up in the first place.

 

Oh...and what does /thread supposed to accomplish?

Edited February 16, 2012 by tazdirector

[Reynnas]

your reasoning is that because it will be "fun for me" and you wont have to let down a group that really needs a healer then you should ahve the ability to switch specs at will

 

Having a ferrari will be fun for me, and i wont ever let down my group of friends that has always wanted to ride in one, but that doesn't mean that Ferrari has to send me an Enzo

(not a perfect analogy)

 

I have no idea your skill level, but i am going to assume that you are better at some things rather than others, so if you were playing to your skills as an awesome powertech tank, but a group needed you to heal then you could switch to your healing specc'ed in the other AC (i dont know how the trees work for bounty hunters, so if i get them mixed up, my bad) you accidently go through your tanking rotation and your group has to deal with a mediocre healer instead of one who has grinded through the levels and learned how to heal very well cus that is his or her everyday playstyle

 

Furthermore, i commend your dedication to leveling 10 different characters and I hope they dont begin to feel stale as you play the same AC with the same mechanics over and over and over and over again

 

The Ferrari analogy is fine, you don't have to let your friends down. You worked for the Ferrari(most likely), and we're trying to work for dual AC. And btw a group never has to deal with a mediocre healer. If there's a consensus, you can kick them, and if you don't want to be with them, you can leave. And unless you're in hardmodes or ops, dungeons aren't very hard. If you ARE in an ops or hardmode, then you know how to play your class and are smart enough that you can easily figure out how to heal just by looking at the skill definitions. If you play multiple specs, you'll eventually learn them just as if you had one.

[Reynnas]

Oh wait!!!

 

Hold that /thread.. Just to add to the post above..

 

No to AC switching!!!

 

FACT!! There is no viable reason to allow it!! Convenient and easy are not reasons..

 

FACT!! The vast majority of the players don't want it..

 

FACT!!! Reguardless how may feel about or like or dislike it, or even disagree with it.. Your AC is you class!! Bioware says so and they are the only one with the authority to say otherwise.. That is simply a fact!! It is indesputable.. There isn't a single word to the contrary..

 

We do not get to choose what is or isn't a class.. We didn't design this game.. We didn't spend years working on it.. We have not earned the right to make such a call.. We don't have to agree with it.. But we don't have the right to simply say otherwise.. Nor do we have the right to demand a change to the game that was never intended and goes against the very fabric of game design.. Since the days of the Beta.. Your AC selections was permanent..

 

There is no written in stone standard for what is and isn't a class.. Nor should people be making up such rules to suit their need or views..

 

You are always entitled to your opinion.. You are not entitled to your own facts..

 

Oh.. It would have been nice if the OP could have simply added their feelings to an existing thread on this issue instead of making another.. Just saying..

 

/thread.. For real this time..

 

Please please PLEASE don't say fact unless there is concrete evidence that you can link to.

-There is always a valid reason as there is always an invalid reason to every argument. I don't think that could ever even be considered a fact

-Unless you have forced every player of SWTOR to take a survey, which I highly doubt since many players don't even use the forums, then your "fact" is just an opinion

-BW stated that they had NO PLANS to let you change your AC. Just by saying that, that means that unless they believe in possibly changing core classes(such as the infamous rogue to mage or vice versa argument) that an AC is not a core-class

-I find it "funny" how you say that you're not entitled to your own facts when you fabricate these so-called "facts" without any concrete evidence whatsoever

[Reynnas]

To the people that are saying you should just create the other AC as the other faction: I chose Republic because I believe in good, not evil. That's not a very good story if you can just switch between Republic and Empire at will without any work. I think that would be more broken than switching advanced classes with respecs. I'm not against getting to Dark V or Light V and being able to switch factions, but I don't feel like essentially switching at will between the factions(via two characters) is right. Nor do I want to play Empire because like I said, I don't believe in the morals or actions of many of the characters in their lore.

[twinionx]

your reasoning is that because it will be "fun for me" and you wont have to let down a group that really needs a healer then you should ahve the ability to switch specs at will

 

Having a ferrari will be fun for me, and i wont ever let down my group of friends that has always wanted to ride in one, but that doesn't mean that Ferrari has to send me an Enzo

(not a perfect analogy)

 

I have no idea your skill level, but i am going to assume that you are better at some things rather than others, so if you were playing to your skills as an awesome powertech tank, but a group needed you to heal then you could switch to your healing specc'ed in the other AC (i dont know how the trees work for bounty hunters, so if i get them mixed up, my bad)

you accidently go through your tanking rotation and your group has to deal with a mediocre healer instead of one who has grinded through the levels and learned how to heal very well cus that is his or her everyday playstyle

 

Furthermore, i commend your dedication to leveling 10 different characters and I hope they dont begin to feel stale as you play the same AC with the same mechanics over and over and over and over again

 

I won't be a "mediocre" healer because I would have leveled as a healer given that I have 10 alts.

 

And as someone suggested earlier, I did level a different AC on a different faction (in a different server)

 

E.g. I have a Jedi Shadow (tank) and a Sith Sorceror (healer)

 

So if AC re spec is allowed, if someone in the republic side needs a Jedi Sage healer (or any healer for that matter), I could re spec to a Jedi Sage (which will play EXACTLY like a Sith Sorceror healer) and everyone is happy. (Of course, I would have to maintain two sets of gear but that is no different from the current plan to do dual-skill-tree.

 

And please don't use hyperbole. What we're asking for is something that is reasonable and has precedent. We're not asking for instant level to 50 or worse, a complete experience for different AC.

 

Because if Bioware insist on saying that the ACs are different classes, then we can also demand that these two "different" classes have different :

 

* primary stat

* storyline

* crew

* starship

* gear design

* etc...

 

You can't have something that share 90% of every game mechanic and then tell us they are fundamentally two different classes.

 

BTW, while leveling my Jedi Shadow, in the storyline, she happen to magically heal an NPC. So tell me, where is her healing skills coming from if she is a SHADOW? Hmm? Now, if you add AC respec, at least I can say, yeah, it makes sense that she can heal the NPC.

 

So is this a case of the story/mission designer not talking to the class designer?

Edited February 16, 2012 by twinionx

[twinionx]

your reasoning is that because it will be "fun for me" and you wont have to let down a group that really needs a healer then you should ahve the ability to switch specs at will

 

Having a ferrari will be fun for me, and i wont ever let down my group of friends that has always wanted to ride in one, but that doesn't mean that Ferrari has to send me an Enzo

(not a perfect analogy)

 

I have no idea your skill level, but i am going to assume that you are better at some things rather than others, so if you were playing to your skills as an awesome powertech tank, but a group needed you to heal then you could switch to your healing specc'ed in the other AC (i dont know how the trees work for bounty hunters, so if i get them mixed up, my bad)

you accidently go through your tanking rotation and your group has to deal with a mediocre healer instead of one who has grinded through the levels and learned how to heal very well cus that is his or her everyday playstyle

 

Furthermore, i commend your dedication to leveling 10 different characters and I hope they dont begin to feel stale as you play the same AC with the same mechanics over and over and over and over again

 

BTW, I am responding to your statement that people will not have alts if they have AC. I am proof that this is not true.

 

Why do I have 8 alts? Storyline. I want to experience all 8 storylines. That is why I have 8 alts. How about the other 2 alts. 1 reason is becos no AC, so no choice, I have to level 2 additional classes due to a wrong choice I made earlier. (I had a smuggler who went gunslinger and an agent that went sniper which I later realised was exact mirrors and I haven't "experienced" the scoundrel/operative healer type. So I chose to level yet another smuggler in order to be a scoundrel. If AC respec is allowed, I would have just changed either my gunslinger to scoundrel or my sniper to operative.

 

So having AC respec will not prevent players like me from leveling alts because we have heavy "alt-ism". At most it will prevent me from having 16 alts instead of 8 only (or in my case, 8 instead of 10).

 

I already have to plan some of my alts to skip the 80% common missions (do PvP, grind or just spacebar through the conversations) but there is no way I can skip the class missions. How many times do I have to say the same thing to Bowdaar or Corso anyway or hear Skavak gloating?

 

For those who are anti-AC respec. I strongly recommend you to play your class AGAIN and go through every mission AGAIN. Then repeat it for every class. Then come back here and tell me if you think AC respec is needed or not.

 

As for being a good tank or healer. Guess what? I have both a powertech and a mercenary. I must say bounty hunter is one class I don't mind leveling twice because

 

a) I like the storyline and you can go both ways

b) I can have both a male and female characters and their voice actors are superb.

 

But if you ask me to level the Jedi Consular storyline again, I'd rather tear my eyeballs out.

Edited February 16, 2012 by twinionx

[MajikMyst]

Because if Bioware insist on saying that the ACs are different classes, then we can also demand that these two "different" classes have different :

 

* primary stat

* storyline

* crew

* starship

* gear design

* etc...

 

You can't have something that share 90% of every game mechanic and then tell us they are fundamentally two different classes.

 

Why??

 

Warlocks wear cloth, use mana, are ranged DPS, and share 100% of the story and quests with all mages.. Both warlocks and mages share the same stats as well.. Any arguements they are not different classes??

 

If you are going to make demands on class identification.. It has to apply equally to all games of the same type.. You can't say that a Mage and Warlock are different classes, but a Guardian and Sentinel are not.. Even though a Sentinel wears medium armor and the Guardian wears heavy..

 

All AC's are classes in their own right..

 

Have a nice day..

Edited February 16, 2012 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

For those who are anti-AC respec. I strongly recommend you to play your class AGAIN and go through every mission AGAIN. Then repeat it for every class. Then come back here and tell me if you think AC respec is needed or not.

 

I played in the Beta for darn near 6 months.. From July to release.. And still play it.. Do you know how many times I have leveled characters??

 

I am will always be against anything that is even remotely close to being allowed to change your class..

 

Were people allowed to go from Warlock to Mage in WOW without rolling a new toon??

 

What class in WOW didn't have the same quests as any other?? Besides faction?? You play WOW enough and you go through the same quests time and time again.. Care to guess how many times I have done all the quests in Outland??

 

Doing quests over again is not a reason to allow AC respeccing.. It simply isn't.. If you get tired of doing the same quest over again then perhaps video games are not for you.. I know of now video game that allows to play different quests each time you play.. Eventually you will do them all again, and again, and again, and again.. Thus the nature of an MMO especially.. In every MMO, you are at some point doing quests over and over again.. What do you think dailies are?? Do you hate dailies??

 

Heck.. I can remember having 4 80's in WOW and having to do dailies on all of them.. Same dailies, 4 times everyday.. Welcome to life in an MMO..

[MajikMyst]

You are right, there is no written stone standard of what is and isn't a class...which is EXACTLY the reason why we're bringing this up in the first place.

 

The problem is that anything that someone complains about or wants to use as reason to validate their thought that the AC is not a class is never passes the basic observation of what is in other MMO's..

 

First, the only reason this issue is comming up at all is because you choose your AC at lvl 10 and not before lvl 1 during characer creation.. So really we aren't talking about class at all.. We are talking about people being to lazy to simply redo those 10 levels again.. As if a little over 2 hours of play time is totally going to kill them.. So there is the crux of the issue..

 

The issue over an AC being a class or not is simply a desire to belittle the importance of the AC.. It is a lot easier justify changing your AC when it is little more than just a change in spec.. If you notice, nobody wants to call it class change, even though that is exactly what it is.. So there is the arguement as to what is or isn't a class..

 

WOW totally debunks any excuse or reason as to why the AC is not a class.. The Warlock and Mage are almost exact duplicates of eachother in many ways.. Both wear the same armor type, cloth.. Both used mana as energy, both cast spells, both are dps only, both use the same stats, and both do the exact same quests no matter what.. Yet nobody will argue that a Warlock and a Mage are different classes..

 

Quests.. Can anyone even name a game where each class had entirely different quests from everyone else?? WOW had different baby areas for each race.. Before Cataclysm, Trolls and Orcs shared a baby are.. As do Dwarves and gnomes for Alliance.. Beyond the baby areas, you had limited choices as to what other zones you could go.. At some point in time you were going to do the same quests over again.. Outland had two sets of quests.. Horde and Alliance.. All horde characters did the same quests.. Reguardless of class.. Same with Alliance..

 

The reason I say these things are facts is because they are.. Bioware has been quoted a number of times in a number of threads stating that AC's are classes.. Most people don't want AC switching to be allowed.. It is class changing and that should never be allowed in any game unless it is designed specifcally for it.. This game is not.. Feel free to read the various other threads on this issue and look at the number of people that are against it??

 

I don't care how many people bring it up.. Look at WOW now.. It is falling a part.. Losing people by the millions.. Because they listened to all these people that want all these 'make the game easier and comfy quality of life.' type things.. In the not to distant future 'Mists of Pandera' will be released.. Do you what will be missing?? Dual speccing.. You know why?? WOW will no longer have talent trees.. There will be no point for dual speccing.. Do you want to see that happen to this game?? I sure don't and neither do a lot of other people.. That is a fact..

 

Take the LFG system that people seem to want.. Another idea from WOW.. Do you know the LFG system did in WOW?? It killed the need for being in a guild.. Who needs a guild when you can just push a button and get a group anytime you want.. I know many guilds that shut down because of it.. Smaller guilds especially..

 

The big issue comes in, when people think, 'Wow.. This would be so much easier if I could do this..' that they don't take the time to consider the effect that something might have.. Both dual speccing and the LFG system seem harmless on the surface.. But in the end, it is what helped destroy WOW and cost it millions of subscriptions.. Including mine.. WOW was no longer social.. You had no need to be social.. You could solo the entire game and even raid without knowing a single person.. What was it another poster said in another thread.. The people in your LFG group were basically semi intelligent companions or NPC's that sometimes on occasions said something resembling english in /p chat.. Other than that you never saw them again.. Where is the multiplayer in that??

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.. I just don't want to see another game ruined by those opinions..

 

You have only to open your eyes and look to see the evidence of these facts..

Edited February 16, 2012 by MajikMyst

[Russkiier]

BTW, I am responding to your statement that people will not have alts if they have AC. I am proof that this is not true.

 

I am saying that Dual AC will reduce an incentive to roll an alt. Just because you roll 10 alts does not mean that everybody has the time/dedication to do so.

 

For example, just because I took the time to learn calculus, does not mean I expect everybody to use calculus when algebra is simpler and easier to use

 

I feel like people will rather be lazy and roll a few characters and then Dual AC around so they can fill every single roll instead of taking your path and rolling 10 alts to experience every last nuance of story

[tazdirector]

@ Majikmyst: You're obviously very passionate about defending this game against AC changing. That's all well and good and you are, of course, entitled to your opinion. After reading through your triple-post a few times, I think you are severely missing my primary issue. Your continued focus on comparing Mages and Warlocks, or highlighting some mysterious point of mine where I complain about leveling from 1 - 10 feels to me like you're not truly reading my posts or trying to understand my perspective.

 

Look at WOW now.. It is falling a part.. Losing people by the millions.. Because they listened to all these people that want all these 'make the game easier and comfy quality of life.' type things.

 

If you chart the growth of WoW, you'll see the game had it's highest subscription numbers during it's third expansion, Wrath of the Lich King, which included the release of the LFG tool and Dual Specs. Those changes only brought more people into the game. FACT LINK HERE.

 

Side Note: I would say the falling numbers of WoW today has more to do with the Cataclysm expansion itself and, of course, the age of the game.

 

But enough about WoW.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.. I just don't want to see another game ruined by those opinions..

 

I realize the concerns that many have over changing ACs. Though the phrase is over-used, it's often proven true in the MMO sector: Change is scary.

 

Nearly every change to an existing MMO is met with a mixture of support and opposition. I also think that the community often over-reacts to changes, assuming a doomsday approach to change where, in a vast majority of the situations, the changes are a net gain, not a net loss.

 

In the case of AC changing, not only do I think that a change would be a good thing, I also believe that the community will recognize and support the need when the majority of the players are involved in end-game activities.

 

As most MMO-players can attest, the time spent at end-game usually vastly outweighs the time spent leveling from 1 to level cap. In my PRIMARY reasoning, the issues that arise from NOT being able to change AC specs WITHIN the Core Class will only become noticeable when operation teams and PVE end-game guilds begin to battle with regular roster issues, RL changes, etc that are common to all end-game MMO activities.

 

Bioware has been quoted a number of times in a number of threads stating that AC's are classes.

 

They've also been quoted in response to the possible introduction of AC changing in the future as outlined in a post by Greg Zoeller, Lead Combat Designer from Bioware, on November 11, 2011:

 

This is a topic we will constantly evaluate as the game matures. It's very possible that somewhere down the line we find that we want to give people the flexibility of switching ACs, but for launch, this will not be possible.

 

Another thing:

 

I'm seeing quite a bit of 'but you said…' in this thread. Here's the thing.

 

I'm a firm believer in doing the right thing, and that involves being able changing your mind and make new decisions based on facts and feedback. The only field where it is seen as a bad thing for people to change their mind is politics. We're not in politics, we create entertainment software.

 

We're willing to change almost anything when presented with good evidence that it is the right thing to do (which means if it is beneficial to the overall game experience). For example, we found that players being able to permanently kill their companions was bad for the game. We changed that, even though we had already announced that feature, because it was the right thing to do.

 

In other words, we reserve the right to change our minds based on feedback and testing. This is part of what makes an MMO, an MMO.

 

So, you see...even Bioware sees that the allowing of AC changing provides "flexibility" to the player-base.

Edited February 16, 2012 by tazdirector
Mis-spelled words

[VanorDM]

So, you see...even Bioware sees that the allowing of AC changing provides "flexibility" to the player-base.

 

That statement is quite a bit older then the current statement, that they will not allow it. Quite clearly they thought it over and decided that allowing people to change Advanced Classes is a bad idea.

[tazdirector]

In other words, we reserve the right to change our minds based on feedback and testing. This is part of what makes an MMO, an MMO.

 

Let's hope to everything that is good in this world that they have NOT changed their mind on the above or I'm afraid we'll see a very short life cycle for this wonderful MMO.

 

As long as they "reserve the right to change [their] minds", I will continue to promote the reasons for allowing AC changes.

[MajikMyst]

HERE[/url].

 

That is totally explainable.. Burning Crusade was arguable their best expansion.. Lich King was widely anticipated due to the success of BC.. Also the effects of dual speccing and LFG didn't just happen over night.. It took time to have their effect on the community.. Both of which were added during Lich King by the way.. The decline of WOW started shortly before Cata was released.. I would probably pin it down and say the 6 months before Cata.. Cataclysm just made it worse.. So becareful you are not just looking at a single frame of the entire movie and attempting to back your views with it..

 

I lived that time period.. I stopped playing shortly after the release of Cata.. Like so many others.. The problem was Cata didn't fix the game.. It actualy made it worse and added more issues.. Orbs were no longer BOE, like they were in BC and WOTLK.. Which meant that you had to run a ton of heroics to make the high level stuff.. You couldn't buy the orbs on the AH.. Even then, only the last boss dropped them, and you still had to roll for them.. So spending 8 hours on heroics wouldn't guarantee you the orbs needecd to make a single item..

 

Heroics got much bigger.. Instead of the traditional 3 to 4 boss in a heroic.. Some had 8 or 9 bosses.. Some heroics took just as long as a raid to do.. If I am grinding for orbs, that is not a good thing.. To me a heroic should take no more than 45 mins to an hour max.. The LK heroics usually took 20 minutes..

 

Cata also dummed down many of the new raids becasue people complained that they couldn't do them.. Mind you they were already easier than your first time doing Kara or something.. Anyone remember getting stuck on Prince Malkazar?? Back in the day it took us a couple of months to complete Kara for the first time.. The day Deathwing was released, many people one shot him on the day he was released.. Even the people that were left in my old guild one shot him.. We were by no means the top guiild on our server.. Remember how long it took to kill the Lich King for the first time?? How long it took to get through ICC??

 

Many of these issues is contributed to dual speccing and LFG.. With the LFG system, groups aren't of high quality.. You learn to play as a team and work as a group by playing with same people over and over again.. You learn who is good at what.. You don't have any of that in an LFG group..

 

So again, look at the big picture and not the little ones.. The effects of LFG and dual speccing weren't known right away.. They didn't happen over night.. People didn't wake up one morning and realize they didn't need a guild any more..

 

AC speccing is truly a moot issue.. There is no reason for it and no justification for it.. Wether or not the AC is a class or not is also a moot point.. As I said it is only discussed because people don't want to ask for class speccing. even though that is exactly what they are doing..

 

Yes I am passionate.. A game that I invesed 6 years of my life was ruined by a bunch of things that shouldn't have been added.. I don't want to see those things added here and another game ruined.. People that want this things are thinking only of themselves.. They don't want it for community health or the better of the game.. They want it becasue they are to lazy to simply play 10 levels over again.. Or they don't want to to roll another character to have both AC's.. They don't want to specialize with a specific role.. These are the people that go to some website and get the best spec there instead of discovering it themselves.. The sad thing with specs on a website.. Mathmatically they maybe awsome.. But unless you know how to play them.. They are still useless.. Unless you have the time right on your cool downs.. The right rotations, the right subrotaions for different situations.. The knowlege on how to improvise to stay alive.. Playing a character isn't just a matter of putting in a spec and just going out and owning the world.. Sadly people actually think that is how it works.. To really be good at a spec.. It takes a bit of time to actually learn the spec and what all the talents and skills do and how to use them in the most effecting manner.. What talents or skills proc other skills talents..

 

Nobody seems to want to take the time to actually learn to play this game.. They just want to be able to log in at 50, and down all the hardest bosses to get the best loots.. Or dominate PVP, whatever floats your boat.. Nobody wants to spend a month or two trying to complete Kara.. Or 6 months on Lich king.. It is better than a single day on Deathwing..

 

You can call it passion.. But in the end it is just a desire to play the game the way it was meant to be played.. Nobody said that an MMO was supposed to be easy and that we didn't have to work for stuff.. If you want a sage for heals and a shadow for tank, then roll two characters.. Do you like the fact that we have talanet trees?? Then no dual speccing.. We all can see what it did for WOW.. There is no PVP spec in this game.. Bioware has always said that people can PVP in their PVE specs..

 

These are all facts and observations.. Again, I lived the through all this.. I was there.. I saw people leave my guild because the LFG system meant they didn't need it.. I saw the raids get progressively easier and easier after LK.. Heck, shortly before Cata was released.. LK was dramatically nerfed because people QQ'ed about not having their king slayer title.. They should have made a new title.. Joker slayer.. Because after the nerf, that is what ICC and the LK were.. Jokes.. We went through 25 man LK with 15 people one time.. We still beat it.. After nerf of course.

 

No to AC speccing.. No to changning our class.. Don't ruin the game for others because you don't want to play those 10 levels again..

 

No to dual speccing.. It totally deminishes the point to having talent trees in the first place.. WOW is losing their talent trees.. Do we want to lose our's?? If there is no point to ahaving talent trees because we can change among them at will.. What is the point of having them at all??

 

No to any type of LFG system that promotes solo play and not playing with others.. Playing with others is not PVP.. Playing as a team and communicating with others is playing with others.. PVP is just killing mobs that occasionaly curse at you when you kill them.. There is very little if any socialization in PVP.. This is an MMO.. Let's keep it so multiplayer actually means something.

Edited February 17, 2012 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

I realize the concerns that many have over changing ACs. Though the phrase is over-used, it's often proven true in the MMO sector: Change is scary.

 

Of course it is.. Look what change did to WOW.. Over 2 million subscriptions gone and counting..

 

Soon there will be no talent trees to speak of and no specs..

 

People are one shotting Deathwing.. An expansion boss..

 

WOW is going down hill fast.. It is a only a matter of time before it becomes a free to play..

 

Who wouldn't be scared when they look at the effects of the very things that people are demanding here??

 

Blizzards biggest mistake was listenting the 'The game is to hard!!' crowed..

 

The same crowed here that is asking for AC speccing, Dual Specs, and LFG..

 

You tell me why anyone shouldn't be scared?? We watched WOW fall apart.. Why would we want to watch it fall apart here as well??

 

Bioware should learn from the mistakes of Blizzard..

 

I am not trying to imply that Bioware shouldn't listen to everyone in the community.. But they should also be mindful of what is or isn't good for the community.. Blizzard wasn't and now Blizzard is paying for that mistake..

Edited February 17, 2012 by MajikMyst

[aznthecapn]

No to AC switching.

[sinfulace]

advance class is a class in its own

 

sorc is like a priest and assassin is like a rouge

 

the only thing the main class ( sith warrior imp agent ect..) has to do with the game is the story and first 10 levels... after that it has nothing to do with eachother

[Surakis]

Oh wait!!!

 

Hold that /thread.. Just to add to the post above..

 

No to AC switching!!!

 

FACT!! There is no viable reason to allow it!! Convenient and easy are not reasons..

 

The same reasons to allow dual specs apply to AC respecing.

[Surakis]

advance class is a class in its own

 

sorc is like a priest and assassin is like a rouge

 

the only thing the main class ( sith warrior imp agent ect..) has to do with the game is the story and first 10 levels... after that it has nothing to do with eachother

 

Except you know, like 1/2 your skills...

[Uruare]

No its not.

 

 

They just want you to roll more alts and play(pay) more.

 

 

That'd be part of it, I have no doubt. They've also got a design philosophy in mind concurrent to their intentions of gameplay.

 

Believe it or not, there are almost certainly at least some (if not most to all!) devs that genuinely care about how things get balanced in such considerations as this.

 

I think that if you want to form a suggestion that might hold some water, you might push instead for something like...advanced class sub-branches of class stories in the future.

 

Right now, you're not treated any differently if you're one advanced class or another in your main class storyline. And I think that lends pretty heavily towards the perception that they're just another spec we should be able to swap like we'll Soon™ be able to do with talent trees when dual spec hits.

 

It would lend some credence to Bioware's position that they're considered as separate classes to branch them off in their own unique ways in the main storyline, to be sure.

 

Presently, it is so because they say so. They're different classes because they say so, to clarify, and that's all.

 

 

There's probably no future for pushing for AC swapping though. Given the degree of importance they placed on it being a big, defining and permanent choice, I'd wager that they'll revise their position on that...probably only if most of the playerbase literally unsubs because of it.

 

I.e: If they're somehow literally forced to. And I wouldn't advise trying to generate that kind of uprising irrespective of how unlikely it would be to succeed; devs are people too, and while I'm not personally a professional developer, I have -some- firsthand knowledge with how miserable it can be to design something you don't like; that you were forced to make concessions you hate in the design of, specifically. They can get demoralized, fed up, burned out and jaded same as any of the rest of us.

 

Try to find some middle ground, is my advice. Asking them to rescind their firmly stated position on this is pretty one sided.

 

Asking them to do something that serves their obviated interests of making this the king of immersive story-driven games by making advanced classes take on some genuine story differences in the future could be -a- good place to start for a realistic and possible compromise.

 

Cheers!

Edited February 17, 2012 by Uruare

[MajikMyst]

The same reasons to allow dual specs apply to AC respecing.

 

 

Ummmm... No they don't.. But keep telling yourself that..

 

Why bother having a talent tree or a class if people are just gonna want change them all the time.. May as well just have a universal class and a universal spec.. Why bother having a game at all..

 

See.. There is no viable reason to have either..

 

Wow is will no longer have talent trees soon.. Want that to happen to this game??

[xyloh]

I am going to laugh when they completely separate Advance classes and instead of combining them... you pick your advanced class at level 1.

 

Keep pushing the issue... I dare you.

[AzKnc]

You forgot in the pros/why the immense functionality such a feature would give for small groups of people/guilds who have to tackle game content, have the precise number, but are missing a certain role. Edited February 17, 2012 by AzKnc

[HelinCarnate]

I am going to laugh when they completely separate Advance classes and instead of combining them... you pick your advanced class at level 1.

 

Keep pushing the issue... I dare you.

 

That would rock. Yes to AC at lvl 1.