The reason Sorcerer/Sage CC is OP in PvP

[fungihoujo]

CC builds have garbage healing- you rely on a 3 second heal that'll crit for about a quarter of your health- but will only go off if you're facing a knuckle dragging moron.

 

More or less- a CC build gives you some survivability against melee classes, but at the cost of being pretty useless healing or keeping others up.

 

The damage is good, but you still lack burst compared to most dps classes. You can keep some melee off you, but only for so long- and ranged dps will tear you apart.

 

Strengths, and weaknesses- it's what tends to be called balance.

 

If anything is an issue, it's not a class being OP- it's that melee classes suck outside the hands of a skilled player- and most players are terrible. Most players can suck and still be decent with any ranged class- and that includes mercs and snipers too.

 

 

I almost want to have some ranked pvp to see how the best players in each class do- because they'll be the ones who show how well classes are truly balanced. Right now people think the class is OP mostly because many people play it.

 

I guess they also believe Beiber is the best musician alive because he has one of the biggest followings.

[Sirolos]

Other classes do have damage reduction, but it often doesn't last that long, either. If you look at something like a Vanguard's Reactive Shield, that's 25% reduction for 12 seconds. It has an up-time of 10% if you use it every time it's up. Obviously it's best to be used when you're being bursted, but unless you're tanking in a raid, bubble would actually be superior over time to reactive shield + a shield + heavy armor, and that's sort of the issue.

 

But the difference is that those sheilds cant be broken.

 

You cant break guarded by the force.

 

You cant break Reactive shield.

 

You can break the bubble.

And a competent DPS'er WILL break that bubble.

 

But every spec of sage relies on it, not just hybrids.

 

The problem becomes hybrid spec's not the bubble..and that is what the OP and the majority of people in this thread agreed on.

 

Hybrids have it all..( I can say that cause im full balance and actually have played this class so nyaa )

Talents in tree's need to be rearanged..and Some talents need to work differently.

 

The bubble isnt the problem its the

AoE blinding

Instant Cast x2 CC'ing

AoE rooting

instant Chain Lighting/TK wavin

Bugged tick's twice as fast force lightning/TK throwing

 

Hybrids..

Thats the problem

[Tumri]

CC builds have garbage healing- you rely on a 3 second heal that'll crit for about a quarter of your health- but will only go off if you're facing a knuckle dragging moron.

 

More or less- a CC build gives you some survivability against melee classes, but at the cost of being pretty useless healing or keeping others up.

 

The damage is good, but you still lack burst compared to most dps classes. You can keep some melee off you, but only for so long- and ranged dps will tear you apart.

 

Strengths, and weaknesses- it's what tends to be called balance.

 

So you consider not being able to heal, cc, and do damage in a single spec your balancing weakness?

 

I'm sorry but that's a load of BS.

[NessusFett]

Im actually an assassin.

but we have many of the same inquisitor moves

 

i will say force speed it handy. but by no means and end all get away. i would say it is very balanced.

in conjunction with other abilities it is lovely.

 

but coming from a mercenary bh... anything is nice to have

[YMIHere]

On more point to add to the discussion, and I apologize if this was already said (I didnt read every post in here):

 

Snares & Roots not contributing to resolve further increase the CC utility of a class that has an overabundance of CC and exacerbate the problem.

 

A good point, but I'm kind of leery of this. I don't know all the classes abilities, but it looks to me like melee have 100% uptime on snares while ranged have 50%. Currently this would allow melee that get on a target to stay on a target (barring an unimpeded Force Speed or a knockback that wasn't answered with CC of their own). I'm leery because that may turn out to be a melee nerf (though admittedly it would turn out to be a nerf for me with my filler filling you).

 

Even a mediocre sorcerer should never be touched in any 1v1 situation when they can slow you, knock you back if you get in melee range (with a root attached) while they run away, then slow you more WHILE doing damage, then mez you if you manage to get back in melee range and break through the bubble.

 

As a mediocre sorc, I disagree. Aside from operatives every melee has a gap closer with the option for a second. One of these will have the same or lower cooldown than Force Speed and not face the diminishing returns of the resolve system, net gain for non operatives and assassins. I'm not going to look up all classes abilities and try to fantasy battle for each one, but I will list some things that aren't well represented in your paragraph above. My knockback is about 5 meters or so, if I'm kiting, slowing, and/or doing damage the root is two seconds. Again, if I'm kiting, slowing, and/or doing damage the mez is an interrupt at best. That paragraph also has no CC from the melee attacker, any class can beat a bad player. Operatives that can't burst me down at least low enough to finish me with their sub-par range damage are going to eat dirt. So that makes two classes that are predisposed to losing to a sorc (the other being a sniper who has no ability to heal when I LoS to heal).

[YMIHere]

THIS

 

Let me ask you a question...what other class has a power that is spammable, gives a resource net gain, does good dmg, AND applies CC slows?

 

If you consider such a power hunky dorey and fair. Then you got me stumped and I've got nothing more to say.

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/2GQ03ev/sweltering-heat

 

Costs nothing, gaining said person resource while also able to be used at 0 in case other abilities used emptied you. 100% uptime snare on the move.

[YMIHere]

They are not weak and fragile. Just take a look at my bubble math. They're no squisher than any other class unless they're main tanking a raid boss(or standing still tanking multiple players for extended periods of time while getting bombarded with heals).

 

I've said it before, your math is off by about 3.5k because you can have a bubble as well. Our chance for a double bubble is probably a good offset for not having any defensive cooldown when every other class gets two.

 

p.s. Love the power of greyskull comments earlier, my Jugg just now got tank form so that's immediately what I thought of when I switched back to dps form. =)

[Tumri]

I suppose you could consider an external bubble but if you're making a case for that you could also make a case for getting external heals as well. In terms of squishyness with personal cooldowns I'd say Sorcerers are about as good as medium armor wearers. There are downsides and upsides to using a bubble instead of having flat higher armor and that's why I'm refraining from saying they're as good as heavy because there will be times when they're worse off with the bubble. If there are other Sorcerers present to provide everyone with bubbles spam then yes the Sorcerer will be worse off. The mass majority of the time though there won't be a pocker bubble spammer. In organized rated WZs I guess you could count on people getting bubbles fairly consistently but in present WZs I rarely see any non-healer using it on others except when away from any real combat and while that's anecdotal evidence I would argue that it's not correct to include external abilities in a damage calculation since you would then have to start adding in things like BH healer Kolto missile.

[savionen]

You cant break Reactive shield.

 

You can break the bubble.

 

True, but the amount of damage reduced by bubble is comparable. In order for Reactive Shield to prevent the same amount of damage as Bubble the Vanguard would have to take 12k over 12 seconds. Which of course is rather likely, but Reactive Shield has a 2min cooldown and Bubble is 20 seconds.

 

Over 2 minutes casting 6 bubbles would potentially block upwards of 18k damage, there's no way Reactive Shield can mitigate even close to that much over 12 seconds. You'd have to have the entire other team attacking you while you were healed by 3 teammates.

 

But I do agree that it's everything combined that's the problem. Bubble by itself it's OP. It's Bubble, and then you're CC'd, and by the time you are in a position to do damage again, Bubble is back up again. The CC is what allows the constant use, and the Sorcerer not taking much damage during the downtime.

 

I don't really think Sage/Sorcerer needs some overall large nerf, they just need to nerf the hybrid build, and potentially buff the top talents of the trees.

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/2GQ03ev/sweltering-heat

 

Costs nothing, gaining said person resource while also able to be used at 0 in case other abilities used emptied you. 100% uptime snare on the move.

 

Requires a stance, requires a proc or a hit from a melee attack, lasts 2 seconds.

Edited February 17, 2012 by savionen

[YMIHere]

I'm not asking for them to be "ruined". I'm asking for them to be toned down in the least destructive way possible. The changes I'm asking for are so subtle that only ONE TYPE of unintended hybrid spec feels the effects.

 

In case I haven't noted yet, your changes would not kill the class. As someone who actually uses a spec like this I think I should point that out. Will it kill the spec? Sure, but if it is overpowered it needs to be killed. We'd still have hybrid specs, full madness, and full corruption. I didn't fair well as full lightning (or see anyone using it), but the x/11/16 hybrid spec would still more than make up for that in my eyes.

[YMIHere]

It might be a bug, but I know 100% for sure its happened. I figured it was a feature of spec'ing into it, because it happened on my Shadow as well (same fundamental skill). I'd Force Lift somebody while literally 3+ people were bashing on them. Figured it was something like Fear on WoW that it had a damage threshold before it would break as a mez.

 

Haunted Dreams says Whirlwind turns into a 2 second stun when it breaks, that's what I was referring to.

 

Yes it does, but that means your resolve bar is white and somebody screwed up. I'd rather have the four second stun after WW ends. At best that add on is a juke for CC breaking or getting an extra stun into the hutball fire, at worst I have to restrict it to targets way out of battle so they don't get instant immunity for one two second stun. For me, instant cast is worth it because I generally don't use it on people in battle anyway.

 

WW+stun fills resolve, but roots aren't affected by resolve, so the sorcerer can still root somebody even though they're currently immune to stuns/knockbacks.

 

They are not, but they're not restricted to my class either. If I was a rooting man, I'd be full Madness for the 9 second cooldown 2 second root that isn't affected by damage.

[YMIHere]

Requires a stance, requires a proc or a hit from a melee attack, lasts 2 seconds.

 

Looks like I read it wrong (it spans three abilities, not my fault =P). Is it a 100% chance to slow if a 10% proc hits? If so it certainly doesn't fit the argument.

 

Regardless, while a Scoundrel doesn't regenerate resources for hitting Tendon Blast it has 100% uptime and they can dps their face off for 12 seconds before casting it again, all while on the move. A Sorcerer isn't using this for kiting unless they can kill the target before it gets to them.

[Tumri]

Has anyone heard anything about 1.1.4? I know there's the UI changes but I was wondering about anything to do with the actual class changes.

[GrandMike]

Has anyone heard anything about 1.1.4? I know there's the UI changes but I was wondering about anything to do with the actual class changes.

 

You mean marauder/sentinel....adjustments?

[YMIHere]

Has anyone heard anything about 1.1.4? I know there's the UI changes but I was wondering about anything to do with the actual class changes.

 

I saw what appeared to be bug fixes for some classes. They're not far down the dev tracker.

[Haralin]

Hope they nerf Sages/Inqui soon Edited February 17, 2012 by Haralin

[Vaipyr]

Hope they nerf Sages/Inqui soon

 

Same. I pray for this every night before bed. Please god please.

[GrandMike]

Hope they nerf Sages/Inqui soon

 

Awww, you are that bad in PvP?

 

I also hope that people L2P soon. Guess what?

 

They will buff end talents. You can call it a nerf to hybrid if you want to

Edited February 17, 2012 by GrandMike

[Wyrdstar]

Awww, you are that bad in PvP?

 

I also hope that people L2P soon. Guess what?

 

They will buff end talents. You can call it a nerf to hybrid if you want to

 

Maybe he's just tired of facing this legion of self deluded mouth breathers that play this class.

[Vales]

Maybe he's just tired of facing this legion of self deluded mouth breathers that play this class.

 

And others are amused by the masses of terribads crying on forums.

[GrandMike]

Maybe he's just tired of facing this legion of self deluded mouth breathers that play this class.

 

Nah, he just has L2P problem.

[fredsaase]

Maybe he's just tired of facing this legion of self deluded mouth breathers that play this class.

Ironically, even if they nerf sorc/sage (isn't there at 20% consumption nerf coming sometime?), I will still play mine.

 

And I will still be better at the game than most of the people crying for nerfs.

[Vales]

This is not an argument but an insult. Interesting that you accuse me of this, yet your the one doing it. Revealing.

 

Could you be more specific? What is BS about my comments??

 

 

 

 

Right. So your saying that because everything is easy, the Sorc isn't easier than any other class? Is this your argument? lol. Come on be honest here...

 

 

 

My main is a Shadow, so dont know where the Sent thing comes from, but realistically? The Sent is easy to burn down, easy to control, and very very hard to play properly. Can they kill a sorc in pure 1v1 situation? Yeah, but they SHOULD BE ABLE TOO, but I am not talking about pure 1v1 here. I am talking overall PvP ability. The Sorc has just so many tools at its disposal compared, it's not even funny. If you were being honest about this you would agree.

 

 

 

 

 

Don't pretend you don't have some invested interest in this. Obviously you are defending the class for a reason. I personally don't think they should be nerfed, like I said: the game needs an easy class. And the reality is Sorcs are a very large population in the game. Popular classes should be easier. That's good game design.

 

Maybe not balanced, but this is about appealing to the largest common denominator.

 

I actually think the big disadvantage to the sorc is that people hate them so much they will ff you down. Regardless if your even doing objectives or not, people will go out of their way to kill you. I know I do.

 

1.) "Smart" guy noticing I mock you.

2.) That you believe that Sorc/Sage is easier to play than other classes is BS.

3.) Hard to burn down with Force Camo, 99% damage reduction and a 20% damage reduction, AoE Mezz, 50% speed increase and potentially two leaps? You are doing it wrong.

4.) The class especially the Inquisitor is popular because of Darth Sidious. Nothing else. Most player at start of an MMO have no clue how strong the class is in PvP and a majority does not even care about PvP one bit.

5.) Ultimately I do not even care if this class gets nerfed or not because I always mained at least 2 classes in every MMO, if I have the time more mainly so I know the classes inside out and get a feel for them so I can counter them better instead of running into forums crying 24/7 albeit it is highly amusing to see it.

Currently getting up my Scoundrel Sawbones, my Immortal Jugger and my Powertech Shieldtech which are around 25 by now.

 

So yeah go ahead, nerf this class if you wish to I do not care ultimately one I am good enough to adjust and I also have a decent pool of characters I enjoy to play I'll just laugh at it because I know for sure if this class is nerfed you will just jump on the next class whining 24/7 about it just the same way people cry about Sorcs/Sages now. Ultimately it will change nothing on the forums. The "comminity" in these forums especially on PvP forums are just a very minor but very vocal group of loudmouthed terribads mostly who would never even consider the fact they fail has anything to do with them being bad.

The masses are close to never right because the avarage IQ of a person is divided by the amount of people he joins most of the time.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Vales

[Wyrdstar]

And others are amused by the masses of terribads crying on forums.

 

Of course because when a wz is comprised of half or better sage/sorcs <which is quite often> it just means that all the pro players mysteriously gravitated to those classes. I think I read this same type of argument from from the Operatives before they got nerfed. Don't worry though I have a feeling your bright wizard...I mean sage/sorc will be nerf proof for a long time to come.

 

/rolleyes back at ya.

[Vales]

Of course because when a wz is comprised of half or better sage/sorcs <which is quite often> it just means that all the pro players mysteriously gravitated to those classes. I think I read this same type of argument from from the Operatives before they got nerfed. Don't worry though I have a feeling your bright wizard...I mean sage/sorc will be nerf proof for a long time to come.

 

/rolleyes back at ya.

 

Cool story bro.