Healing - the worst imbalance in PVP history, in it's current form

[Sgt_shades]

If your not just trolling...seriously you need to stick with PVE, if you really have a problem with healers. Healing in this game is worse than any MMO I've played. Thats not saying they are weak, but certainly not anywhere close to over powered. If you can never kill an equally geared healer, you probably need to work on your pvp skills.

[Atralis]

As a Sentinel 1-49 Healers gave me no issues but at 50 they did. Its to be expected because you are so undergeared as a new 50.

 

The only time they really make me rage is when they travel in packs. With more than one dedicated healer it can really be impossible to kill any single healer.

 

I always do my job as a Sent. I jump on aaler and stick on him interupting everything I can and if its 1v1 I can take him down given time (pre 50 they dropped quick now they are as bad as tanks. Huge HP pools and too much of my damage is "absorbed" and if I get peeled off by anything (in the furballs you have to worry about tons of CC's including group knockbacks that also root) they can heal massive amounts back with a single cast after they get breathing room.

 

It sucks.

[DarthTolis]

You had to post all that to QQ about healers not allowing you to kill people? Should we do away with healing classes in PvP?

 

Are you aware that a group with half a brain will melt healers the nanosecond they see them healing?

 

Are you aware that healers get 30% healing reduction in PvP?

 

Have you learned how to play?

[AutoCocker]

bleh edit Edited February 15, 2012 by AutoCocker

[Viree]

Except they aren't, as displayed by various healers I fight all the time. Healers are literally the hardest class for me to kill. Tanks have pathetic hp when compared to healers.

 

I don't think the game should be balanced around 1v1, but let's at least keep our facts straight.

 

Even if that is true, what's the big deal? My DPS sorcerer gets frequently demolished by Sentinels, or melee of all types. But I'm not calling for them to be nerfed.

It's just the way this game is, some classes can't beat others that easily. Shockingly enough you actually have to use teamwork, a seemingly foreign concept in modern games.

 

If you're a tank then you really don't have a leg to stand on claiming you ought to be able to DPS healers down. You should have the weakest DPS of anyone bar a healer. It would be little wonder if you have trouble with them.

[Corran]

I'm sure this will cheese off a lot of people who play healing classes. I'm well aware of the arguments that healing classes are weak, easily killed or otherwise countered.

 

Hogwash.

 

There is one inarguable fact regarding pvp healing. That is maximum potential health.

 

When you boil down PvP it becomes, at it's core, an issue of scaling.

Who does more damage. Who does more damage in a shorter period of time. Who has better gear. Who has a better build. Who has more health.

I might be able to put out 20k damage in 5 seconds. You might be able to put out 22k. I might have 23k mitigated health. You might have 19k mitigated health.

So we evaluate our battles, you decide to trade some stat or build choice over another to achieve 23k worth of damage in order to beat me. I then change my decisions somehow.

 

DPS and health are very relative numbers. They live in the same realm. You might get 2k crits, you might get 4k crits. You might have 15k health, you might have 20k health.

 

Where does healing factor into all of this? It doesn't factor in any sensible way. The reason it doesn't is because heals can achieve numbers in the hundreds of thousands of health over time.

 

To illuminate this point, lets look at PvP another way. Imagine we are in a foot race to see who is faster. A very common and rudimentary bit of human competition.

I declare to you than I can run 30 yards faster than you can run 25 yards, because I am naturally faster. Or we make a straight up equal distance challenge.

Perhaps another competition might be that I can run a further distance than you in 1 minute, or 10 minutes.

We can all agree that these are reasonable challenges that can and are made in the normal course of life.

 

A challenges which is never made however; is that I challenge that we see who can run farthest in a minute's time, with the exception that I am allowed to pause, reset or simply give myself more time on the clock than you have. So that when your minute is up, I can continue to keep running as I give myself extra seconds for however long as I wish, indefinitely.

 

While that competition would be ludicrous, it is exactly the competition that healing in PvP gives us. Now of course there are the responses such as: "this is what interrupts are for", "out-dps the healing", "focus down the healer", ect. Yes, or course these are valid tactics. These responses do not answer the real issue at all however, which is that healing is indefinite. It is like saying we will have our footrace where I can manipulate my clock, but you are allowed to try and steal my clock during the race. Sure that is a solution to the ridiculous nature of the race, but it still remains that I have the potential for unlimited time and can achieve it. Why even have such a rule in the first place?

 

To answer why is not difficult and goes to the history of the current MMO. The current MMO design of course stems from a PvE model. (Yes the early MMO's like UO had a far different design including pvp, swtor doesn't follow that model, it follows the PvE-centric model). In a PvE-centric MMO model, healing is used to keep tanks alive in boss fights. These fights last periods of time where the health of a tank is replaced numerous times by the healers. You can have a boss with hundreds of thousands of HP put out hundreds of thousands of damage. While a DPS'er might put out 200k in damage into a boss, a healer might put 200k of health into a tank. Healing generally has no limit over time and conceivably you could keep a tank alive indefinitely if it were not for things like enrage timers or regen limitations of energy. That is all well and good and easily understood by any MMO player.

 

Where things go incredibly awry however is when this design is then taken over into the PVP world. Players do not have the health of PVE bosses. The ability of a DPS'er to put out 200k of damage over time is meaningless when players only have 15k worth of health. This is our footrace of limited dimensions. Yet while a DPS's damage output ends when my healthbar reaches zero, a healers heal output is still unlimited, it never ends.

 

Yes, it can be countered. Yes, it can be balanced out with both sides healing. This isn't the point. The point is that you have one side of the equation which is unlimited.

 

To put the argument in another light. Take a great pvp game design like DOTA, HON or League or Legends. These games are actually quite similar to an MMO's pvp in that there are levels and gear for the players. Characters in these games can heal, but no character can heal for any length of time. In most cases, healing is limited to one, two or three heals during any fight. In other terms, any given character only has a potential of two to maybe three times his max health; and twice their health is a stretch. In SWTOR, if you heal someone for 100k and they never die, they are achieving 5-8 times their health.

 

So after all this analysis of the bad philosophy of the problem, what is my suggestion towards the solution?

The best way to balance any PvP system is to balance against maximum potential health. I.E. the limited footrace: we will only judge competition at a max distance of so many yards or so many minutes. The quite simple math to it would be that a character could only receive twice their max health in a 3 minute period. To even out the lower DPS potential that healers have, they might have that limitation reduced by their comparative healing or lack of dps. Hence a healer might be able to achieve 3 or 4 times their health in a 3 minute period.

 

This would mean that healing would still be able to save lives. It could still be just as powerful. But it would not be unlimited.

 

A very simple scenario to illustrate all of this is a duel. Yes, duel's are not entirely representative of group pvp. That argument is beside the point for this illustration of the philosophies involved.

 

DPS vs Healer. Healer has 15k health.

How does the DPS win? We all know. He must do enough damage, fast enough and counter the heals.

DPS does 14k worth of damage.

At this point 2 outcomes are possible.

1) The healer prevents his death and heals himself. Say he stuns the DPS and casts a 2k heal, then a 3k heal, then a couple 1k heals. At this point the DPS has lost the battle and can never recover. While his health continues to decline over time, the healers continues to increase over time. He can now never win.

2) The healer fails to overtake the DPS and eventually dies.

 

A better scenario is that at 14k worth of damage

1) the healer manages to prevent his death and heals himself up to his max potential health, giving himself a new 16k worth of life. That's the highest potential he can reach. Now the DPS must kill him all over again, but once he completes 16k worth of damage before his own death, he wins.

The healer can win, but so can the DPS.

2) The healer fails to overtake the DPS and dies at 15k health loss.

 

In the second scenario the healer has still prolonged his life. He has still healed, and healed for a lot. He has basically given himself a second life. The DPS cannot heal himself and has his same original health pool. You could argue over who has the advantage or disadvantage but the meaningful component to the balance of the equation is that the healers health pool is not potentially unlimited, it is instead very grounded and in sight of his enemy.

 

i read this and dont understand how you can say it's the worst ever when you clearly didnt play or or against a rank 8 cleric in rift

 

 

those were GODS that could NOT DIE

[kivanos]

Op:

 

I see what you are trying to say. However several points of your argument are either "assumed" or simply misinformed.

 

The first point I'd like to tackle is the "Healers can heal forever"

 

This is true; to a point. If you let a healer stand there stock still never pressure them, never interrupt their casts, never CC them, basically just leave them alone AND don't focus fire anyone... You are right a healer can sit there and heal forever. However your example is 1 on 1 so I will also address that.

 

In an equally matched 1 on 1 fight where both players are equally skilled and equally geared and no one makes any mistakes the healer should come out ahead. Why? Because the healers job is not designed to just sit there and spam heals on a single target. In both PvE and PvP healers have to heal more than just the tank, dodge various effects, account for burst and movement. However PvP is an entirely different beast than PvE. Often times in PvE someone with more survivability is taking hits thus mitigating damage and allowing you to heal more efficiently.

 

Having to heal yourself against a skilled DPS does not allow for efficient healing. You have to blow cool downs at a much faster rate, have to heal damage differently.

 

Also one final point. Healing AND Dps require resources. If you are trying to DPS and heal at the same time you are going to burn through your resources in a hurry because you lack the resource management tools for your DPS talents.

 

 

 

Ok Next point: I can't out DPS their life.

 

I understand your point about their effective health being through the roof and you are correct to a point. However killing a healer is not about just blowing them up in the span of a few cool downs. Killing a skilled healer is about forcing them to make a mistake. Applying pressure and knowing WHEN to use those big damage abilities, stuns, interrupts. If you don't do this correctly and force them to do what you want them to do so you can time your abilities correctly you are going to lose. Period. They can just beat you with their low resource dps powers it will just take forever.

 

In basic terms? Force them to make a mistake, capatiliize on it, and win the health bar race.

 

They also cannot max heal themself and max dps you.

 

 

Next point: 1v1

 

PvP, just like PvE is not balanced 1v1. Don't expect this to ever change. There is nothing more to say here.

 

 

 

Last point: your 'race' scenario

 

Not bad as far as painting a picture with words goes but you run into some logic flaws. The main one is you want to limit healing output to x amount of someone's health pool but you do not do the same with DPS output. According to this model all you are doing is swapping the equation. Why? Because the DPS character is going to kill a healer every single time. Even if I can heal my life bar 3 times you are going to be putting out damage leaps and bounds faster than I am as a healer because you are specced DPS. Your abilities, your resources are all focused around killing your opponent. Hell you might have a couple of heals yourself as a DPSer depending on AC. While my spec is based around healing. While I am healing I am doing little to no DPS (You could be dotted) And my damaging abilities are as base line.

 

You are putting pressure on me, interrupting and locking me out of those precious 2 or 3 heals, and I am not even putting out enough damage to force you to use a defensive cool down.

 

 

 

I think that is the highlights of what you put out. A lot of what you said made it kind of obvious you have not really played a healer often so you are not speaking from personal experience.

 

 

So I'll highlight a few things other people have said. I freely admit I am too lazy to quote.

 

 

First point: Focus fire the healer.

 

It doesn't matter how good of a healer you are. If you are being jumped by 3+ DPSers you simply cannot sustain yourself for long without help from team members. You might survive for a little while, but you are burning cool downs faster than I eat twinkies. Get your ops leader to mark the healer and take said healer out back to the wood shed with a few buddies. Problem solved.

 

 

Second point: A healer healing himself

 

A healer standing around healing himself is as useful as ******s on a man. Put some pressure on the healer and even if you don't kill them you should be able to put enough pressure on them by yourself to keep his attention on getting away from you and the end result is almost the same. He isn't healing his friends and people die.

 

 

 

Well I think that covers a lot of points and was at least a source of entertainment. Enjoy.

[Obbu]

Playing whack-a-mole with your party/operations frames is a difficult job now? Lawl.

 

Are you implying that people dont attack healers?

 

Any decent team will lock down a healer with interrupt spam.

 

Or CC.

 

Failing that, just kill the healer.

 

Hard to play whack a mole when people keep taking away your bat.

[RealAeiouy]

On the contrary. I was making posts about MMO's in 1997 when Ultima Online came out. And I've seen MMO's use the same designs for over a decade and so well know the pros and cons of many of their design decisions.

 

Again. It is sad so many people are so incapable of moving beyond the "you suck" part of their brain. I worry about the new generation of gamers.

 

Then you have failed to absorb anything in that time bEcause your rant is way off point. Your examples and analogy are those of someone who do not understand mmogs or mmog pvp at all.

 

Was hard to get past the first bit of rambling but based on other comments you have a complete lack of understanding for the role of healing in team warzones.

 

By the way how many gameplay hours do you have logged as a healer in swtor?

[RealAeiouy]

I've yet to see you or anyone provide a counter-argument. Mostly just bad ad-hominems and strawmans. I'm sure this is because your precious time is valuable and NOT because you are incapable.

 

No, the position is ridiculous. It would be likely madly ranting that all equipment should be removed from the game. There is zero foundation to it. There is nothing to refute or debate.

[Mohawksinspace]

I don't really care for the L2Play responses, but you must have terrible gear, or no idea how to play if you're complaining about healing in this game.

 

Healers suffer a 30% reduction to their heals for just BEING in pvp. Healers Heals, also do not scale with damage... Example. Primary stats + Power give MORE damage, than they do healing, and the abilities themselves do not heal for as much as the damage abilities do damage.

 

You explain an example for how the DPS does 14k damage to the healer, and then healer stuns you, heals for 2k, 3, and a couple of 1k.... You were out of the stun at the 2nd heal, so what where you doing? Also, the heal is not hurting you while he's healing himself.... So, you should still win without a problem.

 

The only way you should be dying to a healer is because they aren't actually a healer, but are a DPS specced person that has a heal, or potion, or you are fighting a healer while a DPS friend is killing you.

 

Trust me... even bad dps beats a healer 1v1... Healing only stalls for time, but will never kill you. If the healer could kill you while healing themself, it's a massive gear difference or a terrible playing... either way, a change to healing would have lead to the same result.

 

A healer in the hands of a truely good player cannot be killed 1v1 by anything except maybe ops/scoundrels for their sheer burst.

 

I am not saying all those can't do this are bad, im sure above average players can still lose the fight against a good pvp, but on a field of equal skill, the healer has the advantage.

[Bloodtau]

Healing is out of control in pvp in this game. If they don't fix it soon their sinking ship of a game will sink even faster. I predict half of the people still paying their sub this month WON'T be renewing.

[Mohawksinspace]

Your examples assume that the healer can:

 

• heal themselves effectively while being DPSed (they cannot)
  
• heal themselves at all while being interrupted (they cannot)
  
• DPS effectively while managing to heal themselves effectively (they cannot)
  

 

Not to mention that the situation assumes 1v1, greatly impacting the healer's chances of competing, and also assuming non-standard pvp gameplay in a team game.

 

Healing in pvp is already far more difficult than in most games.

 

Hes not trying to say the healer can or cant overcome the dps via cc and tactical choices by both players. So he is not assuming anything.

 

He is delivering a concept on the fundamental mechanics of healing by measuring potential resources.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Mohawksinspace
typo

[bellok]

Big wall of text......bottom line is that all healing classes are good for certain roles. For example bh/commando healing classes were meant to complement sage/sorc healing, not exceed it. There are certain things a sage/sorc cannot do, and that is to take on more than 2 players. They can't take the spike damage because their heals believe it or not don't heal for a lot.(3-4k heals versus 5-10k incoming dps) However give them an accompanying bh/commando, and even a smuggler they can actually tank quite a bit. This is important for some cases like holding down the fort guarding turrets, and doors. I think smugglers and bh/commandos can heal for the big spike damage for a short time while sage is heal over time, and area of effect with more time to heal. So really if you are complaining about not healing as well as a sage/sorc then you are playing the wrong class, or you simply do not understand your role....

[Bloodtau]

A healer in the hands of a truely good player cannot be killed 1v1 by anything except maybe ops/scoundrels for their sheer burst.

 

I am not saying all those can't do this are bad, im sure above average players can still lose the fight against a good pvp, but on a field of equal skill, the healer has the advantage.

 

Not really. With biowares stupid though out surge nerf they can't be killed by ANYTHING now.

[Mohawksinspace]

If a healer consistently loses quickly in a 1on1 against a DPS, there would literally be no reason to ever play a healer. You'd always be better off replacing the healer with a DPS since a DPS can always beat a healer quickly.

 

Even against very good healers, if they do beat me 1on1 it usually takes them several minutes to pull it off. They can also lose after a long fight too (Sorcerer more likely to lose through attrition).

 

Since interrupts have nothing to do with skill or gear (gear/skill cannot prevent interrupts from happening to you)), even a tie is sometimes a loss for the healer. If my side put our worst DPS who is at least good enough to know what heals to interrupt against your best healer, he can neutralize the enemy's best healer for a pretty long time and we'd certainly have an advantage everywhere else if our worst DPS canceled out their best healer.

 

The goal of PvP balance is to always want the better PLAYER.

 

Not healer/dps/class/spec.

[Fancyhuh]

Healing is out of control in pvp in this game. If they don't fix it soon their sinking ship of a game will sink even faster. I predict half of the people still paying their sub this month WON'T be renewing.

 

I've heard this one before, maybe it was on one of those other 1000 QQ posts.

[LoL-K-Noob]

A healer in the hands of a truely good player cannot be killed 1v1 by anything except maybe ops/scoundrels for their sheer burst.

 

I am not saying all those can't do this are bad, im sure above average players can still lose the fight against a good pvp, but on a field of equal skill, the healer has the advantage.

 

This is a straight up lie. It may come down to the healer running out of energy before death, but that depends on your class and LoS/snare issues.

 

Source: personal experience against many battlemaster Imps on my server I beat 1v1.

Edited February 15, 2012 by LoL-K-Noob

[Bloodtau]

I've heard this one before, maybe it was on one of those other 1000 QQ posts.

 

Seems you're the only one whining here.

Constructive posts, look it up.

[Xippin]

I'll stick with your "track" comparison to keep things relatively simple for you. Your problem is, you are comparing 2 different types of runners. You are viewing a relatively diverse world consisting of different races, classes, goals and passions as something it is not. Simply put, you are saying that there should only be one type of "runner" in this race, when in all reality the MMORPG is actually a track competition and not a race itself in a sense. Because of the MMORPG's diversity, you end up with 3 basic types of runners.

 

DPS: This type of runner is a 100 meter dash runner, his goal is to get to the finish line as fast as possible by burning as much energy (damage) in as short a time as possible to beat their opponent.

 

Tank: This type of runner is a 5 - 10 kilometer runner. They maintain a decent pace over a longer distance, but can not run as fast as the 100 meter dash runner. Their goal is to have the stamina and endurance to run 5 - 10 kilometers at a moderate pace, hence outlasting their opponent.

 

Healer: This type of runner is your full 26.2 mile runner. They maintain a slightly slower pace then the 5 - 10 kilometer runner, and vastly slower pace then the 100 meter dash runner. Their goal is to complete a full 26.2 miles without pause.

 

Now to your other topic of reseting, the race. Your logic is severely flawed in this due to the poor comparison of healing output vs damage output. The real comparison to be used, since this is a track competition and not a single minded race as you would have it, would be WARZONE or ILUM player vs player combat since they are both focused on GROUP/TEAM combat.

 

Lets assume group make-up is not balanced in role assignments, since it rarely is, but since skill is something that will at times play in your favor, and at times play against your favor depending on your team; we must assume that it will balance the ups and downs out.

 

Group 1 Group 2

Tank Tank

Healer Healer

Healer DPS

DPS DPS

DPS DPS

DPS DPS

DPS DPS

DPS DPS

 

60 Second Combat Scenario

 

DPS Deal 10 damage over 60 seconds

Tanks Deal 6 damage over 60 seconds

Healers Recover 10 damage over 60 seconds

(Since as you say, healers completely eliminate a DPS's damage)

 

Group 1 Does 56 Damage While Recovering 20

Group 2 Does 66 Damage While Recovering 10

 

Group 1 and group 2 both have 100 health at start, lets see where they fall at the end of the 60 seconds.

 

Group 1 (100-66)+20= 54 Health Remaining

Group 2 (100-56)+10= 54 Health Remaining

 

So, in the end, essentially what happens is they both end on equal footing because the team with more DPS balances out the additional healer. Now we can through in taunts/guards etc, but that's all irrelevant to your original logic that Healers change the race.

 

Your problem is NOT that healers create an un-balanced playing field, it's that a lack of skill creates a challenge for you and/or your team and you do not like to adjust tactics.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Xippin

[Bloodtau]

This is a straight up lie. It may come down to the healer running out of energy before death, but that depends on your class and LoS/snare issues.

 

Source: personal experience against many battlemaster Imps on my server I beat 1v1.

 

Nice try, but thats BS aswell. Dps classes have energy as well and use up more of it trying to break through the **** IWIN heals every healing class now has.

[finetop]

Are people really saying healers should be immortal in PVP??????

 

WHAT PLANET ARE YOU PEOPLE FROM?

[blackadda]

As a longtime MMO player and avid PVPer...

 

You beat healers in a GROUP situation by using AOE's and bursting down individual targets during the confusuion...

Its a default behaviour for a healer to revert to self preservation the moment they take damage..thus leaving their team to die.... you use that to your advantage.

 

In a 1v1 situation you beat them by using your stuns and then interrupts at a time where your maximum burst damage will be hitting...that involves knowing your DPS class well,

 

 

Right now i think the balance is near perfect, healers are where they need to be... aka VIABLE and VALUABLE.

 

 

I say this as a DPS who occasionally(once in a blue moon) meets a healer who uses "rope a dope" and manages to burn me out of energy/heat before i can kill them.... all i think is..

 

"Well played"

[glenbruton]

This thread is pretty funny. healing is so overpowered that theres nothing but healers in my warfronts... oh wait... thats in my dreams. Might have ONE healer and the rest DEEPEEESS.

[Bloodtau]

This thread is pretty funny. healing is so overpowered that theres nothing but healers in my warfronts... oh wait... thats in my dreams. Might have ONE healer and the rest DEEPEEESS.

 

You joking right? 80% of the population now are Iwin sorc/sage hybrids.