dorkvid Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Smart players gear for the BM 4 piece (or 2x 2 piece) bonus and stack expertise to around 300-350~ and then fill in the rest of the slots w/ PvE gear. They will probably utterly destroy a full BM-geared player if both are at equal skill levels, since they will maintain around the same offense/defense from expertise, but the one w/ PvE offpieces will hit harder and have more health. 350 expertise = 7.6% bonus. Full BM is roughly 13.5% bonus. With this comparison, you'll be taking 6% more damage and dealing 6% less at the price of what, MAYBE 100 more main stat / endurance? Not worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adzzy Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I don't understand this rakata mod inside bm gear... they are both 58 mods? And btw, expertise doesn't really have the diminishing returns that people think. See: http://i.imgur.com/6xonc.gif it's because bm gear doesn't have power/surge enhancements, but instead is generally filled with accuracy, crit and alacrity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalFinality Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) That's the funny thing. When they added DR to expertise they ruined their own already flawed PvP stat progression. Get up to 8-10% then fill the other slots with end game PvE gear. Oh, you thought expertise was supposed to prevent raider gear from infesting PvP? What, did you think Bioware was competent or something? Edited February 14, 2012 by EternalFinality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SliggXx Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 That's the funny thing. When they added DR to expertise they ruined their own already flawed PvP stat progression. Get up to 8-10% then fill the other slots with end game PvE gear. Oh, you thought expertise was supposed to prevent raider gear from infesting PvP? What, did you think Bioware was competent or something? I want to see evidence of this supposed Diminishing Returns on Expertise. From everything I have seen, it appears that even at post 500, we are getting about 2% per hundred points of Expertise. Please explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahhmyface Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 it's because bm gear doesn't have power/surge enhancements, but instead is generally filled with accuracy, crit and alacrity. Yeah, but surge has been nerfed into the ground, thereby making power the only good stat in the game. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adzzy Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Yeah, but surge has been nerfed into the ground, thereby making power the only good stat in the game. :/ it's not bad, it just isn't worth (arguably over) stacking anymore. It still gives nearly 25% crit damage for 250 which is a pretty minimal investment, particularly for classes that have high crit talents. Edited February 14, 2012 by Adzzy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorkvid Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I want to see evidence of this supposed Diminishing Returns on Expertise. From everything I have seen, it appears that even at post 500, we are getting about 2% per hundred points of Expertise. Please explain. QFT. The equation for expertise -> bonus damage is : 20 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.2 ) )^( ( Expertise / max(level,20) ) / 0.72 ) ) Now graph this equation and.... http://i.imgur.com/6xonc.gif On that graph, x is expertise and y is bonus damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sappharan Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Right? Knowing that the stat soft caps at roughly 10%, BM upgrades are a complete joke. Not only do PvErs gain more of the crucial stats but they gain more health as well. (lol) I'm just curious as to what your itemization team was thinking before these sets were released. The game has been out less than 2 months. Give it time. Everyone wants everything perfect, and they want it yesterday. Then everyone complains about paying a measly subscription fee as though its breaking their entertainment banks. I am sure your complaint has merit, but recognize that all mmos have growing pains. This one is brand new and very well implemented. I have some complaints as well, but nothing I think is *yet* worthy of bringing to a forum. And, whatever complaints I may be holding in reserve are very much outweighed by the enjoyment I am deriving from other aspects of this wonderful game. Just be patient, Xinika. Things will find their balance before too long. Edited February 14, 2012 by Sappharan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahoff Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I'm at 16500 and 1475 in mostly champion gear.... don't exaggerate. Exactly, I still have 3 centurion pieces and I'm like 16300 without my Biochem buff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chargolith Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Lmao. How clueless can one person be. Not even going to bother responding. Ah, classic response of someone who knows they're wrong. Expertise is everything in pvp. Without it, you're dead, unless you're lucky enough to fight someone who's also without it. Pvp is only skill based when expertise levels are virtually equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluid Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Right? Knowing that the stat soft caps at roughly 10%, BM upgrades are a complete joke. Not only do PvErs gain more of the crucial stats but they gain more health as well. (lol) I'm just curious as to what your itemization team was thinking before these sets were released. seperating out pve and pvp gear in general is bad design, and a stupid choice, despite the fact that 90% of the ********s playing MMOs believe it is a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDeniz Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 no jus no... i will wreck any pve geard player while im full bm.. no matter how skilled they are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savionen Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Seems like half the people in this thread don't know what diminishing returns are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abanoth Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Seems like half the people in this thread don't know what diminishing returns are. Does it work like resolve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 703 Expertise (max possible in game) is about 12.6%. People who think Expertise DRs probably thinks if 100 armor mitigates 1% of incoming damage, then you should be able to mitigate 100% of incoming damage with 10000 armor. In terms of damage reduction, it is inherently exponential because 100% damage reduction = immunity. Given 50% damage reduction > 100% more HP very easily, PvP damage reduction can be valued very safely at twice the HP % gain and easily defeats any survivality gain from Rakata. THe DPS gain is close on BM-1 -> BM (12.1% to 12.6%) is too close to decide based on tooltips so they're effectively the same, and that's the piece most in favor of PvE. The only reason to give up Expertise is if there's a particularly interesting set bonus you're trying to get. Even then, you're giving up a lot so better be something about as awesome as +15% crit to Tracer Missiles. Expertise has absolutely nothing to do with mods since it is only on the armoring slot. The mods in Rakata/BM are exactly the same anyway for any piece with the same clasification. Just compare their secondary stats. They're identical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 For this interested in learming about expertise and armour Expertise: http://www.jedilace.com/2012/02/02/expertise-breakfast-of-champions/ Armor: http://www.jedilace.com/2012/02/09/damage-reduction-from-armor/ I'm working on a tool that will finally answer the question as to whether rakata > battlemaster or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackadda Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) You wont have 17k hp in full BM gear... more like 16k hp if you go your damage/healing set (not tank stat)... also in full BM you will have roughly 1300 unbuffed of your main dps stat (str/aim/cunning/will), with full top quality PVE with augment slots you're looking at around 1700 of main dps stat. basically if you go full PVE you'll have roughly 400 more of your main dps stat along with 3k more hp than if you went BM. Though the best way to do it is to go roughly half PVE, and half PVP regarding gear. Im at 18175 health in almost full BM "Eliminator" gear, 17415 without end buff, 1503 aim incl Rakata stim, 1380 without. Thats as DPS Spec Merc (pyro), with having taken only +3%end from talents... 16k is more like a half cent/half champ... Switch out ur BM enhancements for champ level Surge/Power/Endurance and you get better bang for your buck... it doesnt take terribly long to do so either. Edited February 15, 2012 by blackadda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laoi Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Right? Knowing that the stat soft caps at roughly 10%, BM upgrades are a complete joke. Not only do PvErs gain more of the crucial stats but they gain more health as well. (lol) I'm just curious as to what your itemization team was thinking before these sets were released. bioware devs thinking? hah!, yea right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 HP numbers are not good to compare because some classes inherently has more HP (Mercs) and some classes inherently have less (Sorc). I have something like 16.1K in full BM Stalker armor. A Sorcerer would have less in their BM armor and a Merc would have more. If you have BM armor, just compare it to the equivalent Rakata armor. It's almost always like +10-15 endurance, +20ish main stat, and -51 Expertise. That's 100-150 HP per piece. Yes a Rakata Merc would have maybe 3K more HP than a BM Sorc, but those two classes don't have the same base HP. The difference between full BM and Rakata is around the low 1000 HPs for the same class, which is less than 12.6% of your HP, even if you value 12.6% damage reduction as only 12.6% HP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbocat Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) That's the funny thing. When they added DR to expertise they ruined their own already flawed PvP stat progression. Get up to 8-10% then fill the other slots with end game PvE gear. Oh, you thought expertise was supposed to prevent raider gear from infesting PvP? What, did you think Bioware was competent or something? there is no diminishing returns on expertise. PvP game gear is made that currently end game pvp gear like BM, is that you can reach 15% expertise for now. A full Bm geared will beat a half geared bm/rakata. The pve/pvp geared have only 500 expertise, like 10%, the BM guy will have 650+ 15% and will do 5% more dmg, and take 5% lesser dmg. The attribute is designed so that two players with expertise will essentially cancel each other out. If they have same amount of expertise. So use full pvp gear, and **** those half geared pve nerds Edited February 15, 2012 by carbocat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remidi Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) If you think your toon in half rakata gear with 6% dmg reduction is going to beat a full BM at 12.5% (same skill)you are sadly mistaken and need to learn how to pvp. If you think otherwise you are playing against bads. Learn how the percents work. The people that keep posting this are trolling. I have full rakata and BM. Edited February 15, 2012 by Remidi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Expertise is the strongest PvP stat by far. Compare it to WoW's resilience which didn't even boost damage done. Reduced damage taken in PvP is extremely good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remidi Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) Expertise is the strongest PvP stat by far. Compare it to WoW's resilience which didn't even boost damage done. Reduced damage taken in PvP is extremely good. Its bads that have no idea what they are talking about that think what the OP is saying. Edited February 15, 2012 by Remidi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 there is no diminishing returns on expertise. PvP game gear is made that currently end game pvp gear like BM, is that you can reach 15% expertise for now. A full Bm geared will beat a half geared bm/rakata. The pve/pvp geared have only 500 expertise, like 10%, the BM guy will have 650+ 15% and will do 5% more dmg, and take 5% lesser dmg. The attribute is designed so that two players with expertise will essentially cancel each other out. If they have same amount of expertise. So use full pvp gear, and **** those half geared pve nerds There is no DR in the sense that because current Expertise numbers are too low to hit it. Going from 653 (BM-1, 12.1%) to 703 (full BM 12.6%) yields basically equal tooltip DPS increase and higher survivality (damage reduction 0.5% > 0.6% HP increase), and by induction if BM beats Rakata in the worst piece (the last piece) it must also beat it in all pieces before. If it was possible to hit say 5000 Expertise, given the formula shows that it caps at 20%, you could easily get a situation like 5000 Expertise = 20% and 5050 Expertise = 20% so you'd get no gain. An interesting lesson is that while the defensive advantages of Expertise continues to dominate PvE gear, the offensive advantages is almost equal at the BM-1 stage (winner cannot be determined without a parser), so if a new set of gear takes your Expertise to say, 1000, you might get a weird case where PvE gear versus low Expertise > PvP gear versus low Expertise. PvP gear would still be better overall since having a signifcant edge in not dying is generally more useful than doing slightly more DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) Expertise is the strongest PvP stat by far. Compare it to WoW's resilience which didn't even boost damage done. Reduced damage taken in PvP is extremely good. It basically boils down to if the other guy can't kill you, you can always kill him. This is amplified when there is healing present. PvE gear gets you more HP, while PvP gear gets you reduction, yet reduction is unfathomably more powerful than a correspond HP change. If you can lose half of your HP permanently for 50% permanent mitigation, you'd be practically immortal in PvP with any healing support. If you double your HP but take double the damage, you'd basically be a joke in PvP (nobody will have the resources to ever heal you to full). While the Rakata gear guy gains 12% more HP, the BM guys simply takes 12% less damage and the two is not comparable in survivality because heals are usually static. Edited February 15, 2012 by Astarica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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