Wallach Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I really hope someone tests KB/KC for smart healing. They had to make all of the AoE heals smart heals, right? I mean that is a no-brainer. Right...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Especially after this stupid post ends up being vague misdirection, if not an outright lie, to appease the masses when you indeed did not change Y and Z, excepting in cases where Y and Z are other classes that made X feel like special ed. Sorry, but I'm seriously pissed off now that I remembered this quote. You try and tell us that just because you only mentioned our AoE heal, that doesn't mean you haven't changed anything else. You even say that Operative and Scoundrel healing could use some improvements and we'd see them in 1.2. So where are they? Oh that's right, you meant these pathetic quality of life changes that just make it so Operative healing is less like passing a damn kidney stone. No wonder you refused to give any clues as to what was coming down the pipe, because you've been talking out your *** and the only real "improvements" to the spec beyond a rebalancing of our AoE heal was nerfs to the other healers. Yeah, my "wait and see" optimism was completely unfounded. I canceled my 6 month subscription. If this is their idea of a commitment to balance, I can't see myself dealing with this crap (not to mention GZ's attitude) for any significant length of time. I was a pretty vocal advocate for this game, and I tried my best to keep discussions reasonable and avoid sensational speculation, accusations of Developer preference, etc. I guess I was wrong. I don't enjoy Sage healing. I guess I'll be tanking or DPSing until my sub runs out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainApop Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Yeah, my "wait and see" optimism was completely unfounded. I canceled my 6 month subscription. If this is their idea of a commitment to balance, I can't see myself dealing with this crap (not to mention GZ's attitude) for any significant length of time. This is quite sad, as someone who just spent several hours reading this entire thread you seem like not only a very reasoned individual (far too rare in MMO's) but an asset from a theory/balance pov. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 This is quite sad, as someone who just spent several hours reading this entire thread you seem like not only a very reasoned individual (far too rare in MMO's) but an asset from a theory/balance pov. I try to be. I try to operate under the assumption that being constructive and polite is, in general, more effective than raging and throwing tantrums. I like to think that calm, reasoned discussion between sane, reasonable people can solve most (not all) disputes and problems. I told my wife I was coming to bed almost two hours ago. I just saw that the Patch Notes came out and wanted to update the Healer Request thread for people...you know, because seeing changes on our list get added in makes you feel warm and fuzzy like maybe they listened. I was a little saddened by only changing two Scoundrel entries (UH and KC), but was cheered by how good the KC buff appeared to be...then I scrolled down. Now I'm too angry, frustrated, and betrayed to sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daross Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) You know what time it is ... TIME TO REROOOOOOOOLL !!! .... I feel realy disapointed. Atm going to PTR, to level scoudrel to lvl10 and check the tree.. But most likely scoundrel healers are over.. bringing him to Ops is ofc viable, but you gimp your group as you could do better with "other" class. Its like using Orange gear instead of Columi/Rakata, because it looks cooler. Edited March 17, 2012 by Daross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleu Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Was slightly underwhelmed when I first saw the op medic changes - like all the changes but didn't feel they'd really nailed it. However from past experience it is really rare to see a class functionally redesigned outside of an expansion. Now I've seen the sorc and even more so the merc changes I realise they've focussed some of their rebalancing on nerfing the other classes, which I didn't expect based on their previous comments - would love to have been a fly on the wall when they decided all these things. Heading over to the PTR to try out a low lvl op since speculation around patch notes is always a bit limited however: RN - the more I think about it the more I like it, ok so range is limited but this 2-3k healing per person over a short time (6s). Given the energy cost I don't mind the cd at all, range is still a bit limited thats the main drawback. Its also something else useful to do when locked down/kiting in pvp TA changes - having 3 stacks that are less likely to fall off is fantastic and I think will reduce the number of times we're caught out by damage and unable to react. Also very positive in pvp. Diagnostic scan - not sure about the maths but I'm imagining a 2s ish cast time taking alacrity into account which is fairly easy to weave in to allow bursts of heavier energy use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainApop Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) 2-3k, wut? They said it heals for roughly 10%more than it does on live. Which I math as still less than 2k, granted pve gear but that shouldn't make a 30% difference particularly when I've a 15% set bonus buff from my champion/bm gear. I like the concept but the whole 10m range thing means it practically needs to be worth casting on a single target to make it useful in pvp. Which makes it OTT in pve. It needs a larger range or some other change imo. Then they can actually balance it. Edited March 17, 2012 by CaptainApop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcculusX Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 i agree without increased range on the AE hot, it is still pretty useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapher Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Well, looks like Bioware gave a (reletively) long response to RuQu's question which you can find in today's Q & A. In short, they do not feel there is any significant inequality amongst the healers as all three specs can complete current and future content but they concede that there is room for minor improvements. So there it is. Official word from the devs that they do not see any fundamental problems with our class and that we only require tweaking. Well I suppose this is it. Truthfully I had already suspected Bioware did not have the resources nor experience to efficiently balance an MMO, but this just confirmed it. That said, I would like to personally thank Bobudo and RuQu for all their hard work with not only identifying the imbalance between healers, but doing so with a level of grace and thoroughness that is unfortunately far too rare on gaming forums. You both did right by the community and we appreciate it. God speed. I know it's a bit of a faux pas to quote yourself, but yeah, saw this coming. Yes, it's easy to be pessimistic, but I (along with many of you guys) have played a lot of MMO's and it's always easy to spot the developers who try hard but still struggle to balance their game properly and the developers who simply do not understand their own game or how balancing an MMO is different compared to a multiplayer game (e.g. a class cannot simply be 'good enough' to be considered an equal). Bioware falls squarely into the latter. Lets look at the healing changes (from strongest to weakest class): 1. Sorcs - minor nerfs and bug fixes (some already in the game). Not what the game needed - sorcs should have been the standard, not the outlier 2. Mercs (distant second) - Nerfs? NERFS??!? I'm at a loss for words. 3. IA Medics - QoL improvements and a few 'numbers' buffs. A band-aid on a broken limb. Real problem here is the devs need to lose their arrogance and see the game for what it actually is, not what they think it is or hoped it would be. This will eventually happen, but it will probably take 2 or 3 major patches and an expansion pack before it does. Once they realize it's okay to change their minds, it's okay to take back a previous statement and it's okay to admit some ideas were misguided - this game will be the better for it. But yeah, not sticking around and paying money to go on this ride again. If an MMO wants their community to be patient and put up with all the issues they've already experienced in half a dozen other MMOs, the game has to offer something more than just being a Wow-clone with a story-driven leveling experience. -- IA Medic, Valor 69 and full BM. Not logged on in over 3 weeks. 31 more days until EA can no longer count me in one of their inflated subscriber reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanisUDL Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 i agree without increased range on the AE hot, it is still pretty useless. The range is pretty large on RN, you really shouldn't have a hard time hitting 4 ppl with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oredith Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 -- IA Medic, Valor 69 and full BM. Not logged on in over 3 weeks. 31 more days until EA can no longer count me in one of their inflated subscriber reports. I, unfortunately, had enough faith in BW (or just bind hope?) that I put in for a 6 month sub, so i'm here for considerably longer.. it was funny, just the other day i'm talking to my friend at ZAM, who was all excited about the release of ToR, because they saw it as their new cash cow, now that WoW is on the decline, and WOWHEAD ad-buys were getting hard to sell. they launched TORHEAD thinking great things, especially with the large number of pre-orders, and the buzz around the game. he asks me Wednesday : HIM. Are there other sites aside from TORHEAD and DARTHHATER that people are going to as their primary source of data? ME. not a whole bunch, there's Sithwarrior, but that's more like EJ forum in wow. and there's SWTOR-SPY. HIM. Hmm.. that doesn't seem right, those sites don't get enough traffic to really register on Quantcast.. ME. why do you ask? HIM. We're seeing a steep decline in traffic in both TORHEAD and Darthhater, but we just saw a report indicating that BW has a solid 1.2 mil subscriber. Just wanted to know if there's a competitor website that I'm not aware of. ME. I don't think so, I think BW is just having artificially inflated numbers from people waiting on 1.2 well, i was one of those, and I have to say, as a Merc-healer, i'm leaving. I'm advising my friend to shift their resources away from TORHEAD asap, and focus on something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintan Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 yesterday I loved this game but today I feel that I'm literally forced to quit. I mean I just don't feel like logging on..... Going back to my Wow guild until GW2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 You know what time it is ... TIME TO REROOOOOOOOLL !!! .... I feel realy disapointed. Atm going to PTR, to level scoudrel to lvl10 and check the tree.. But most likely scoundrel healers are over.. bringing him to Ops is ofc viable, but you gimp your group as you could do better with "other" class. Its like using Orange gear instead of Columi/Rakata, because it looks cooler. Let's be more accurate here, "other" means Sage. I think I've established a decent reputation as a calm, rational, non-trolling, non-sensationalist poster. No question about it, these changes will destroy Combat Medics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padkhar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 The notes are dissapointing, because they are still trying to fix the wrong problems. The game encourages groups to take both melee and ranged dps. Yes, it is viable to take only one type--but players know that will make some encounters more difficult. Well for healing, they almost did the opposite. It's "viable" to take something besides a Sage/Sorc, but it'll be more difficult, so groups are encouraged to take only one type of healer, even when they can bring more than one. Which of course, doesn't apply to 4 person flashpoints, since you have to beat enrage timers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absalon Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 2-3k, wut? My OP is Med specced in champ gear. RN currently lasts for 15 seconds and ticks 5 times for 450 per tick. That's 2250 HP over 15 seconds, 150 hps. After the patch, it's 2475 in 6 seconds, 412.5 hps. And that's without crits and without having TA up. Can anyone confirm how many times the new RN ticks? Is it 3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovjohn Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) I didn't like what I saw. The changes to healing classes (all 3) are not bold enough. They seem like people such as Georg Zeller study some excel files which focus on the wrong end of things (such as, "Total healing done in a warzone / operation") and then "conjure" changes of this kind. Well, I've got news for Bioware: Judging healing output by cumulative numbers is at least idiotic, and I'm sure they do that by now - Hence "justifying" in their heads the BH nerfs as well. Simpler facts like "utility" and "tools available" haven't crossed their minds it seems. As for my class? They leave it with <same old crap> except the AOE heal *may* have a reason to exist, although I really doubt it would be good enough to convince me to switch back to Medic 31+ and leave the nice energy regen bonuses of the hybrid build. Medics still have a Kolto Infusion which is entirely worthless and still consumes TA, but we now have 3 TA stacks. Oh, wonderful. Long story short, I'll be logged in for most of today and tomorrow to finish up some crafting and send it to guildmates to sell, as an accomplished Armormech, also send them most of my money, and never log in again. Edited March 17, 2012 by Sovjohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodivar Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Not a complaint....an observation. My OP feels very squishy in PvP...my heal totals look to be in line with my other characters leveling up...but I die much..much more. MY BH- BG specced...does not heal for significantly more but I don't dread a single melee DPS coming my way...I can blast them back, shock, shell, instant aoe heal, shield and heal... aka....live enough to get folks to peel. With my OP, if a DW melee sets their sites on me.... I die. If our vanish could be talented to actually not break on DOT's or AOE so I could actually get away... I think the game play would be much more enjoyable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neulwen Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) Wow, I just read the patch notes. We currently have one good healer class (sorcs/sages), one not too good (mercs/comms) and one crappy one (operatives/scoundrels). After the patch we'll have one good (sorcs/sages), and two crappy ones. If the Force Bending bug has already been fixed, and sorcs are still imba, and the consumption change is just a barely noticeable nerf, then I'm really disappointed. And why in the world are they nerfing mercs/comms? It's good that they are buffing operatives, but it's not nearly enough! It's just a small piece of the needed changes. This whole situation is just bewildering... Edited March 17, 2012 by Neulwen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobudo Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 I updated the title and my original post. TL;DR, it's over folks. I want to thank all of you for being so passionate and constructive on trying to get our voices heard. I like to think we had some success, but there was nothing we could do to get the devs to change their stance on healing. Cheers to all of you, where ever you end up going or doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaearth Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I updated the title and my original post. TL;DR, it's over folks. I want to thank all of you for being so passionate and constructive on trying to get our voices heard. I like to think we had some success, but there was nothing we could do to get the devs to change their stance on healing. Cheers to all of you, where ever you end up going or doing. If you're still watching this thread, I'm curious how you would now respond to Georg Zoeller's previous post in this thread? We are generally not talking about upcoming balance information, for any class, until we have finalized the changes enough to be certain, which usually means when changes are about to hit PTS. This avoids confusion and wrong expectations, but understandably causes people to be impatient. I have acknowledged, when asked at the Guild Summit, that we determined healing on Operative can use some improvements and have made changes in 1.2 (along with changes to almost every other aspect of the game). For details, you will have to wait until the patch hits PTS (which should be soon) for the reasons stated. Even then, I would advise you to actually test the changes on the server rather than relying on theory crafting based on patch notes, as some of the underlying rules for the game (e.g. diminishing returns for certain stats) have changed at the same time. Disclaimer: When I state 'we changed X', it does not preclude changes to Y and Z. I did not say 'we did not change Y and Z' but neither did I say 'we changed Y and Z'. I merely made a singular statement about X, which is not to be constructed as a statement about Y or Z. Even though I just said 'we changed X', the statistical probability for the immediate appearance of threads decrying the lack of change to Y and Z has significantly increased by this statement about X. This puzzling effect is why the first rule of partial class balance discussion is that you do not discuss partial class balance. Because frankly... It just pisses me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainApop Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 @Absolon Ah ok, I was merely looking at the tooltip thinking it would show a reliable figure. I don't have the ability talented currently. As to the range on RN, it's not the powers actual range but the 10m from target jump for the extra three heals. This makes it very underwhelming in pvp where you don't expect people to bunch up. And to parrot several people including myself. Still no smart heal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanisUDL Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Wow, I just read the patch notes. We currently have one good healer class (sorcs/sages), one not too good (mercs/comms) and one crappy one (operatives/scoundrels). After the patch we'll have one good (sorcs/sages), and two crappy ones. If the Force Bending bug has already been fixed, and sorcs are still imba, and the consumption change is just a barely noticeable nerf, then I'm really disappointed. And why in the world are they nerfing mercs/comms? It's good that they are buffing operatives, but it's not nearly enough! It's just a small piece of the needed changes. This whole situation is just bewildering... I have both an Operative and Sorc at BM level (prior to the ez-mode valor leveling) and I'm fairly certain Operatives will be stronger than Sorc in PvP in 1.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crudedragos Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) @Absolon As to the range on RN, it's not the powers actual range but the 10m from target jump for the extra three heals. This makes it very underwhelming in pvp where you don't expect people to bunch up. And to parrot several people including myself. Still no smart heal. I can regularly get it off on 3 people usually, 4 is kinda lucky. Previously though I'm not it was worth it. I usuallyam Running KP on me and tank and count on RN to heal the DPS until I can get a KI/SP off without being interrupted (which should also be easier now with TA stacking to 3).This applies to both in civil war if your defending the turret they are attacking and in huttball when your running the ball carrier, same setup as above with tank & dps. I admit in voidstar Its rarer but nothing is perfect. It's nice compared to Salv where we can cast it from safety on a melee fest and on the move. Edited March 18, 2012 by crudedragos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I'm not sure if people saw this post by GZ: Thank you for actually testing things in the game before posting. It's feedback from people like you we are interested in. Games are not balanced on paper and actual gameplay impact of changes is not easily determined from patch notes, especially when so much of the surrounding game logic has been modified. It is impossible to capture every element of change in patch notes, and it's even more impossible to prevent people from reacting to patch notes without taking the time to actually test. We will be monitoring the game data coming from PTS, as well as guild feedback and constructive feedback based on gameplay on PTS and make adjustments and changes for the PTS period of the patch and beyond where necessary. I love how he starts by saying the opinions of anyone who didn't get invited to copy a character to PTS don't matter. I created a feedback thread to respond to him on the PTS forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daross Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I love how he starts by saying the opinions of anyone who didn't get invited to copy a character to PTS don't matter. I created a feedback thread to respond to him on the PTS forum. "Didnt get invited" ? AFAIK you just had to apply for copy with your group and you get your char coppied. And Im not supprised that feedback of someone who actualy tested things is more valuable, than simple "what people think" after reading patch notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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