Powertech defensive cooldowns

[SinisterSniper]

Just comparing them to the juggernaut they seem quite gimped. In terms of tanking specs:

 

-Juggernaut gets a 30% instant heal for 10 seconds on a 90 second cooldown(has multiple uses)

-Powertech gets heals 15% as a HOT over 10 seconds on a 2 min cd(talented; longer cooldown, not-instant, heals half of what the juggernaut one does). You can look at the HOT this way a tank with 20,000 health gets healed for about 300 a second for 10 seconds.

 

-Juggernaut gets a 40% damage reduction for 10 seconds on a 2 min cooldown

-Powertech gets a 25% reduction for 12 seconds on a 2 min cooldown

 

-Juggernaut gets bladeward 100% ranged/melee defense for 2 seconds followed by 50% defense for 10 more seconds; 2 min cooldown

-Powertech gets oilslick (sprays around the powertech so ranged are rarely hit), 20% reduction in accuracy for 18 seconds; 1 min cd

 

I know the other bounty hunters share all of these cds too and a buff might make them overpowered. So I propose a high-end talent or something in the tanking tree that buff them slightly.

 

I can understand the abilities being different but ALL of them seem at a huge disadvantage over their counterparts.

[Prolyfic]

That's funny, so many juggs in game have complained to me about exactly the opposite. so many healers in game have asked me to come tank instead of X jugg who can't hold agro off Y dps or who's taking too much dmg from Z boss.

 

First off, you are forgetting a HUGE part of PT defense. The Mitigation stats. What jugg do you know has 50% armor 50% shield chance and 40% absorb? Sure we are low on defense because we dont need to dodge, we can take it right on the chin and keep on truckin.

 

Defense vs Resist, a classic distinction between mitigation strategies employed by various MMO tank classes for years. In SWTOR, the PT is a resist tank and the jugg is a defense tank.

 

Whats great about resists is its predictable. Instead of getting hit larger less times, you get hit smaller more times. more consistent, less burst. Easier to heal, easier to pop CDs.

 

then you are comparing AOE defense abilities that protect the whole group vs abilities that protect only the tank. The oil slick is a debuff on the enemy, meaning ALL attacks against ALL targets within are basically +20% defense for 18s. Far superior in most situations than +100% for 2s to only yourself, and +50% defense for 10s more.

 

lastly as far the HoT.. they are far more beneficial to a resist tank than defense tank. Defense tanks use self heals (bursty heal), resist tanks use hots (consistent heal). because the whole purpose of the resist tank is to reduce the incoming dps to < your incoming heals per second. Our self hot is just a small part of that equation to be used to counteract damage cds. the purpose of the defense tank is avoidance of dmg, not reduction of dmg, when they get hit they get hit harder than we do. they NEED a more bursty heal.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Prolyfic

[Prolyfic]

ONE last pc of advice. The Jugg is a reactive tank. He fights til he takes a hit, then tries to recover with defense cds, self heal, w/e. The PT needs to be played PROACTIVELY. you can't just go tank and wait til your low to pop your CDs! You have to anticipate dmg and prepare for it by layering your defense CDs.

 

Remember its all about incoming HPS > incoming DPS. Jump into a boss fight and pop shield or heal at 90% instead of 50%. Use your relics after your shield drops even if your're still at 80% health. then pop oil slick. Turn on your life bar % numbers in options and watch your % health. See how fast its going down and how useful our CDs are to prevent that and in some cases make it go back up.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Prolyfic

[ducksmyth]

No matter what way you market it the HoT is terrible.

 

If the HoT is making any difference you may as well swap out your healer for a pet, cause even Mako makes 15% health over 10 seconds look bad.

The fight would have to be on the razors edge for such a tiny hot to matter and if it is making a difference what is happening for the 110 seconds it is down?

 

You don't solve group damage with accuracy debuffs either, you tell the dps to stop screwing up, bring less melee dps to cleave heavy fights or learn to hold aggro better.

Edited February 14, 2012 by ducksmyth

[Prolyfic]

No matter what way you market it the HoT is terrible.

 

If the HoT is making any difference you may as well swap out your healer for a pet, cause even Mako makes 15% health over 10 seconds look bad.

 

You don't solve group damage with accuracy debuffs, you tell the dps to stop screwng up, bring less melee dps to cleave heavy fights or learn to hold aggro better.

 

LOL you miss the pt of resist tanks completely sir.

 

the hot is not a self heal. It's a defensive CD. Its not supposed to be used when you NEED A HEAL. its used to PREVENT NEEDING A HEAL as soon you otherwise would by keeping your life higher longer (especially when used during your other CDs like shield or oil).

 

yes, it could use a buff but its by no means terrible. I use it EVERY fight and notice it. I would never take it out of my rotation and my healer is the best I've ever grouped with in an MMO.

 

and for your next bit.. lol .. wow. solve group dmg?? cleave..? less mdps? lol.. learn to hold agro better? rofl.. I cant even reply to that you are so far off. none of that has anything to do with pt vs jugg. please read my post again.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Prolyfic

[ducksmyth]

I understand how soak tanks work.

You just wont find a fight where 15/10 is appreciable mitigation. The effect is so minimal that you'd do the fight without it just as easily.

 

How close would the fight have to be that it matters? Close enough that your luck or lack of it with the RNG of criticals swamps it 10 times over.

 

The instant 30% heal at least fills the role of an emergency heal or silence counter. 15/10 doesnt.

 

I do agree that PTs are in a good spot for tanking, but its in spite of the tanking cooldowns not because of their different HoT and accuracy debuff cooldown features.

Outside of cooldowns they are the most solid, predictable tanks which healers like, especially when non sorcs struggle with having to heal spikes.

Edited February 14, 2012 by ducksmyth

[Sayuri-chan]

LOL you miss the pt of resist tanks completely sir.

 

the hot is not a self heal. It's a defensive CD. Its not supposed to be used when you NEED A HEAL. its used to PREVENT NEEDING A HEAL as soon you otherwise would by keeping your life higher longer (especially when used during your other CDs like shield or oil).

 

yes, it could use a buff but its by no means terrible. I use it EVERY fight and notice it. I would never take it out of my rotation and my healer is the best I've ever grouped with in an MMO.

 

and for your next bit.. lol .. wow. solve group dmg?? cleave..? less mdps? lol.. learn to hold agro better? rofl.. I cant even reply to that you are so far off. none of that has anything to do with pt vs jugg. please read my post again.

 

The hot you are mentioning only heals for about 300 per tick in which isnt even noticeable, a merc's free heal heals for way more than the CD itself, maybe if they raised it to 50% HP over 12 sec it would be useful.

[Pokupo]

I think the big point is that PT's do not need the same CD's as Juggs.

 

If your PT is going to be taking 500dmg every 5 secs, followed by a 1000dmg enrage hit every min Healers can plan for that in their rotation, can throw defensive bubbles out to absorb big hits. Tanks can pop a cool down accordingly.

 

Now the Jugg may only take say 300dmg because he has better avoidance, but then do to RNG may get hit for a crit chain of like 700 back to back to back, that is where he has to use his CD's defensively in a fight, and healers have to pop CD's to get back up on their feet.

[exphryl]

We talking PvP or PvE?

 

PvE I feel we are actually pretty fine as cooldowns are concerned...

 

PvP, not so much.

[Prolyfic]

The instant 30% heal at least fills the role of an emergency heal or silence counter. 15/10 doesnt.

 

thanks, thats a good way to put the same point I am making. our hot is NOT A EMERGENCY SELF HEAL. you said it yourself. Why is it not though??

 

because we dont NEED one. Because we have higher base mitigation (which you also seconded) so we NEVER suddenly lose 25%+ health unexpectedly like a jugg.

 

I do agree that PTs are in a good spot for tanking, but its in spite of the tanking cooldowns not because of their different HoT and accuracy debuff cooldown features.

Outside of cooldowns they are the most solid, predictable tanks which healers like, especially when non sorcs struggle with having to heal spikes.

 

A tank is the sum of his defensive measures. I think you just read my part about the hot and started trolling. My advice for you is to stick with defensive tanks, they are much more your style it seems.

 

The hot you are mentioning only heals for about 300 per tick in which isnt even noticeable, a merc's free heal heals for way more than the CD itself, maybe if they raised it to 50% HP over 12 sec it would be useful.

 

Its not noticeable if you're not watching your health but I watch mine and when you are fighting a boss and your health goes 79%, 80%, 81% etc every GCD for the duration of the heal despite incoming dmg, then it IS noticeable.

 

And a merc heal? are we comparing tank defensive cds to a dps heal now? 50% over 12 seconds would make me immortal.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Prolyfic

[Sayuri-chan]

thanks, thats a good way to put the same point I am making. our hot is NOT A EMERGENCY SELF HEAL. you said it yourself. Why is it not though??

 

because we dont NEED one. Because we have higher base mitigation (which you also seconded) so we NEVER suddenly lose 25%+ health unexpectedly like a jugg.

 

 

 

A tank is the sum of his defensive measures. I think you just read my part about the hot and started trolling. My advice for you is to stick with defensive tanks, they are much more your style it seems.

 

 

 

Its not noticeable if you're not watching your health but I watch mine and when you are fighting a boss and your health goes 79%, 80%, 81% etc every GCD for the duration of the heal despite incoming dmg, then it IS noticeable.

 

And a merc heal? are we comparing tank defensive cds to a dps heal now? 50% over 12 seconds would make me immortal.

 

Im talking about a merc healers shoot you in the face heal. and 50% over 12 secs isnt that

high its only like 10k heal and the cd is 2 mins well i guess its OP.

[Prolyfic]

Its only a 10k heal? Consider what sorta of dmg reduction PT base mitigation provides... something like 70% dmg reduction.

 

10k health to a non resist tank is 30k+ health to a resist tank because he's only taking 1 pt for every 3 pts of dmg anyone else would take.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Prolyfic

[Dark_Rift]

Try and think about it in different terms. If you get hit for lets say 700 hp and the hot ticks for 300 then you essentially are only getting hit for 400... again making it somewhat easier on healers. This ability stresses the fact that the PT is a proactive tank. I agree it is not as big as it should be and it doesn't really fall into the "oh ****" button category but still it is not useless.

[Prolyfic]

For resist tank only:

 

X must be < Y + Z, else you will die in A/B seconds

 

X = Total incoming damage per second

Y = Total incoming heal per second

Z = Total self heal per second

 

A = Total Health

B = Amount by which X is > Y+Z

 

 

it's pretty simple but lets plug it in.

 

5000 DPS incoming, but only being healed by 4000 HPS and 0 self HPS.

At 20k health, a tank would die in:

 

5000 DPS - 4000 HPS = 1000 net DPS

20,000 / 1000 = 20s

 

At this rate, the tank would die in 20 seconds.

 

Now lets use our HoT the moment we enter the fight (See: Proactive)

 

5000 DPS incoming, being healed by 4000 HPS + 300 self HPS

5000 DPS - 4000 HPS + 300 HPS = 700 net DPS

20,000 / 700 = 28.5s

 

So with the HoT active and all else equal, the tank in this example literally lasts almost 50% longer in the same situation. (not real numbers but used for the sake of explanation)

 

You can't look at 300 self HPS and figure "that's not a lot" without taking into account the big picture. After other forms of mitigation you may only be taking 600 incoming net DPS! In that case, the hot heals you for 50% of your incoming damage per second! Very far from useless

Edited February 14, 2012 by Prolyfic

[SinisterSniper]

then you are comparing AOE defense abilities that protect the whole group vs abilities that protect only the tank. The oil slick is a debuff on the enemy, meaning ALL attacks against ALL targets within are basically +20% defense for 18s. Far superior in most situations than +100% for 2s to only yourself, and +50% defense for 10s more.

 

lastly as far the HoT.. they are far more beneficial to a resist tank than defense tank. Defense tanks use self heals (bursty heal), resist tanks use hots (consistent heal). because the whole purpose of the resist tank is to reduce the incoming dps to < your incoming heals per second. Our self hot is just a small part of that equation to be used to counteract damage cds. the purpose of the defense tank is avoidance of dmg, not reduction of dmg, when they get hit they get hit harder than we do. they NEED a more bursty heal.

 

In terms of PVE, how is Oil Slick useful (if it works the way you make it seem I agree 150%)? Its ranged/melee attacks only.

 

-Rockets from the first boss in EV would seem awesome but that is tech damage.

-Gharj has nothing for it to be used on

-Pylon bosses monsters die to quickly for it to be used on (even in NM)

-Council fight is a joke and doesn't need it.

-Soa doesn't attack the raid

EV has 0 bosses

 

-First boss in KP doesn't even need a tank for it

-2nd bosses don't attack the raid with melee/ranged damage

-3rd boss doesn't attack the raid

-4th boss doesn't attack the raid

-karaga attacks the raid with tech damage

KP has 0 bosses

 

If you were meaning trash then ugh why blow cooldowns.

 

In PVP, you are right a bit. 20% acc on everyone is decent and didn't think about it in that way. If you/someone else is running the ball hit that and hit a few people or if you are defending in VS/CW. The issue still comes down to, by far most of the classes are ranged in warzones and you will miss them. If you are a tank in you're kinda supposed to be running the ball, so the juggernaut ability is by far superior.

 

 

The 15% heal is still almost a slap in the face. You are asking us to blow it at 90%(with a 2 min cd)? Is that a joke? It IS a cooldown IT IS supposed to be an oh **** ability. I'm not asking for a 50% heal like what has been said but in its current form, its a joke. Not useless but a joke. AT the very, very, very least a talent needs to be made in the tank tree to half the cooldown on it.

[Prolyfic]

In raids, oil slicks usefulness diminishes absolutely, but places like Kaon HM or on the door/flag in pvp, oil slick is unbelievably useful. It's an aoe defense, so it should def best perform when facing multiple enemies, not something that happens a whole lot in raids. In terms of raid tanking one boss that particular CD is less useful than the one from jugg he chose to compare to, but raid tanking is also something I've spent only a fraction of my time doing once or twice a week.

 

Its no surprise the PT has better AOE capabilities in many areas, agro, dmg, and defense. In the name of balance, the jugg once well balanced SHOULD be better at tanking single difficult mobs since the PT is the premier aoe tank of choice.

 

Every bit of content currently in this game is possible with a PT tank. Is a particular difficult boss better handled by a jugg? it SHOULD be, thats what brings class diversity. but that doesnt mean the PT can't also accomplish it, just like a jugg trying to tank kaon hm is very possible but will find it more difficult than a PT by leaps and bounds.

 

The 15% heal is still almost a slap in the face. You are asking us to blow it at 90%(with a 2 min cd)? Is that a joke?

 

Look at it this way, you can use it at 90% to avoid losing the HPs up front, and have it's 90s cd (if shieldtech) counting down during the fight to use again, OR you can wait til you absolutely need it at 35% and use it only once a fight and not get the health return you need to survive because you die before it's duration is even up.

 

The sooner you stop thinking about it as a real self heal and start looking at it as a "shield" you pop when you expect an increase in incoming dps, the sooner you'll be able to appreciate it.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Prolyfic

[SinisterSniper]

 

it's pretty simple but lets plug it in.

 

5000 DPS incoming, but only being healed by 4000 HPS and 0 self HPS.

At 20k health, a tank would die in:

 

5000 DPS - 4000 HPS = 1000 net DPS

20,000 / 1000 = 20s

 

At this rate, the tank would die in 20 seconds.

 

Now lets use our HoT the moment we enter the fight (See: Proactive)

 

5000 DPS incoming, being healed by 4000 HPS + 300 self HPS

5000 DPS - 4000 HPS + 300 HPS = 700 net DPS

20,000 / 700 = 28.5s

 

 

This is deceiving. Why doesn't the other tank get their last stand? If you add that in 30% instant heal for 15 seconds. They get 26,000 life / 1,000 dps 26 seconds. Not a 50% increase in survivability as you would make it seem.

 

The situation is wrong too; both are supposed to be help healers keep up with BURST damage. In which by far theirs is better.

 

I have several characters to 50. A 50 operative (full battlemasters, pre 1.1) and a 50 Powertech(partial BM). I have seen first hand from both sides in PVP. Powertech tank ball carriers just melt but juggernauts with all of their cooldowns is nigh-impossible. You can use all of the math you want to try to jumble the number but I have a lot of warzones under my belt and can tell you how it works in the real world.

[Pokupo]

Not every Tanking class needs cool downs though.

 

I think when I first started Tanking in WoW, my Paladin had no Cool Downs, unless I got them on Trinkets or whatever. The only CoolDown you had you would not use because it put you a bubble, and dropped threat.[ ok I admist there were some fights where this was useful ]

 

And I do not think Druid Tanks had CD's as well for the longest time either?

[Prolyfic]

This is deceiving. Why doesn't the other tank get their last stand? If you add that in 30% instant heal for 15 seconds. They get 26,000 life / 1,000 dps 26 seconds. Not a 50% increase in survivability as you would make it seem.

 

The situation is wrong too; both are supposed to be help healers keep up with BURST damage. In which by far theirs is better.

 

What other tank?? My post was about PT NOT popping the HoT vs PT popping the HoT to illustrate its usefulness in the big picture of overall mitigation.. and its for a RESIST tank, the numbers would be FAR different for a DEFENSE tank. and yea, in my example the hot allows a tank to last 50% longer in the example situation in PVE.

 

The situation is wrong? lol.. you don't get it I guess. I bet you just read my last post and just jumped back into the thread, didn't you??

 

and honest question have you ever tanked with your PT in PVE? on a well-geared PT tank there IS NO BURST dmg in PVE. that's the whole point of choosing a resist tank over a defense tank to begin with!

 

You can use all of the math you want to try to jumble the number but I have a lot of warzones under my belt and can tell you how it works in the real world.

 

I do love your argument though.. "forget your facts and math and numbers and illustrated examples about tanking in PVE. I've done a lot of WZs so I know far better!" <---Classic

 

fwiw I've scored with 6x 50s on my ***.. maybe the PTs you played with were stuck in the mindset that they have to be pyros to pvp (or they might as well reroll jugg) like you imply

Edited February 14, 2012 by Prolyfic

[SinisterSniper]

What other tank?? My post was about PT NOT popping the HoT vs PT popping the HoT to illustrate its usefulness in the big picture of overall mitigation.. and its for a RESIST tank, the numbers would be FAR different for a DEFENSE tank. and yea, in my example the hot allows a tank to last 50% longer in the example situation in PVE.

 

The situation is wrong? lol.. you don't get it I guess. I bet you just read my last post and just jumped back into the thread, didn't you??

 

and honest question have you ever tanked with your PT in PVE? on a well-geared PT tank there IS NO BURST dmg in PVE. that's the whole point of choosing a resist tank over a defense tank to begin with!

 

 

 

I do love your argument though.. "forget your facts and math and numbers and illustrated examples about tanking in PVE. I've done a lot of WZs so I know far better!" <---Classic

 

fwiw I've scored with 6x 50s on my ***.. maybe the PTs you played with were stuck in the mindset that they have to be pyros to pvp (or they might as well reroll jugg) like you imply

 

You're facts are misleading and at times straight up wrong. Classic. Anyone can manipulate data. They're the proactive tank you keep claiming, but in PVP none of that matters. Tech damage/force damage (the damage done by most classes) is not reduced by armor/able to be shielded/dodged/parried/etc. <-- classic manipulation of facts. No one said you can't score 6-0. I do it all day long and that is not the point of this thread. This thread is clearly showing that juggernauts cooldowns are vastly superior to powertechs.

 

Discrediting experience is fine but not everything works as perfectly as it should in theory. I have all nightmares down in PVE, and have more than enough experience in PVP. The law of averages at this point agrees with me, not you. In PVE they get one flashpoint? Once again, a slap in the face. You admit juggernauts are better for operations.

 

I suggest fair solutions. A tanking talent in the tree to improve some of their cooldowns. 15% is not as amazing as you claim, in PVE or PVP. Oil slick, which you admit is not good. Shield wall which is aspect per aspect worse than theirs.

[Teioh_White]

One note: rockets from droid aren't tech, so a sniper+PT there is basically a free CD for the whole time. I know this, as my Jugg tank pops Saberward there which puts me up to about 82% defense, and barely loses any health.

 

Other than that, any PT jealous of a Jugg has not played a Jugg seriously. I've got both at 50, Jugg needing only rakata offhand to be finished, PT still gearing up, and I never really want anything of the juggs. Energy shield is almost as good as Invincibile, anyways, when you factor in the increased duration and higher base mitigation of PT.

 

Also, I don't know if it matters, but Energy Shield shows up on the char screen as adding +25% to your damage reduction. Invincible doesn't reflect in the char screen, leaving me with the sneaking suscpision is prevents 40% of the damage my 50% mitigation doesn't, rather than just bringing up to 90% mitigation.

[Anthiel]

We talking PvP or PvE?

 

PvE I feel we are actually pretty fine as cooldowns are concerned...

 

PvP, not so much.

 

its because our great pve mitigation dosent work against alot of the attacks in pvp making our cd's seem lackluster.

[Umpire]

PvP we tend to be fine; that is to say we definitely last longer than other classes.

 

In PVE we definitely have worse defensives than juggs do, but that hasn't stopped me so far. I've main tanked all the 8 man bosses on all difficulties. My Jugg friend has an easier time during CD phases (like foreskin crusher's frenzy) but i'm no where near unhealable during them.

[AshPrime]

The biggest distinction between the two classes is Juggs are Active tanks, whereas PTs are Passive. Aka juggs are fun to play and PTs are lame.

 

So all that you guys are saying is right, PTs have way more shield and absorb and armor hurray. And they also have really poopy defensive cooldowns. Juggs have way less mitigation, but they also have really sweet fun CDs and that is great.

 

Basically Juggs have control over whether they survive or not, they have a bunch of good cooldown and it is also important when you use them, the get a bubble from their scream, retaliation increases their defense, smash reduces accuracy. Also using certain attacks reduce the cooldown of enrage, also pretty good. Basically you gotta do stuff to keep your butt alive.

 

PTs on the other hand, yeah they hold threat well, and do more damage than some of the other classes, but as long as you have threat you can basically afk. Oh wait, I guess you can flame burst once every 15 seconds to reduce damage by 4%. Thats about it, our cds dont do too much. (I'll make a whole thing about oil slick later its so bad).

 

 

Originally I made myself a PT with the idea that I would tank, my guildy would heal, blamo. But then I realized this class is dumb and not fun for you or the healer. You are just a dumb cup with a straw and the healer fill you up with health and enemies just slowly slurp you down. But no matter what you're just a cup. Juggernaut are cups too, they are not as big as PTs, and the straw they have is bigger, but they're special cups with gadgets and tools. The put lids on themselves, they make themselves bigger with cds, they jump all over the place and make it had to drink them. They don't just sit there like a dumb cup.

 

The reason people love PTs for ops is they're easy mode, healers don't have to work to keep you alive, and you don't have to work to keep yourself alive. A lot of healers don't like juggs because both they and the juggs themselves need to step it up in order to progress.

 

there is a reason that Blizzard decided to fully revamp all of their tanks and bring active mitigation into rotations, because tanks were bored all the time. There were literally fights where tanks could afk.

 

Finally Oil Slick is an awful ability. It's all RNG, it only works for things in a very small range, mobs can walk out of the effect, it only "mitigates" by a small amount, it's only good in the sense of its aoe aspect, but as stated before there is not a single true PvE fight that you would use it on. It's also bad for personal use, because the dodge effect is counter productive for all of PTs procs which require you to shield attacks. If the raid boss keeps missing you that means you can't vent heat or refresh rocket punches.

 

 

That is my rant.

[Dharagada]

PvP we tend to be fine; that is to say we definitely last longer than other classes.

 

In PVE we definitely have worse defensives than juggs do, but that hasn't stopped me so far. I've main tanked all the 8 man bosses on all difficulties. My Jugg friend has an easier time during CD phases (like foreskin crusher's frenzy) but i'm no where near unhealable during them.

 

Everything you've said sounds opposite to me.

 

Most of our defenses are passive which is great in PvE however alot of those defenses are weak in PvP.

 

Compared to a say a Jugg tank who has more of the active mitigation which is actually more useful in PvP (not bad in PvE either).

Edited February 15, 2012 by Dharagada