Give me a legitimate reason to NOT have a LFD tool.

[Anomini]

It kills games because of two simple facts.

 

1) with an endless pool of randomized groups, you can be a douch with impunity. When you are a ***** in same server lfg, you develop a reputation, people can ignore you, etc. with cross server you get the annonymouty that makes such pleasant people like forum trolls and YouTube commenters.

 

2) you can't invite people from other servers to raids/guilds. This means if you find really great people in these groups, you can't group up with them later. Alernately, since you are grouping using x server lfg, you aren't recruiting new people to your guild.

 

You can use the argument "you can opt to not use it" all you want; but it will be used by the majority, and you will find yourself laughed out of chat channels and told to use the tool.

 

Agreed. I've seen it not work well in WoW and Rift, respectively. Things went a bit downhill in both places, and people really stopped giving a poo at all about anything, when stuff went cross-server. It initially caused quite a bit of ninja'd loot (stuff they couldn't even use but "Haha I rolled and now am dropping grp to go back to my server, bai!"), caused arguments and drama over stats and damage done in instances ("I think we should kick ___!" *vote to kick!* "...sigh." *votes just to get the freakin' run done*), and cost a whole lot time and excess energy when things went wrong. True, there's some times when people ARE respectful of one another, but those times can be few and far between, when it' s the internet and people are just as likely to feel anonymous enough to want to troll for the heck of it, than to try to work together to get something done without complaining every step of the way about this, that, and whatever's gotten their undies in a twist.

 

As it stands now, I'd love to see a LFG chat channel. There should be one by default, and I'm surprised there isn't. Sometimes it's a pain trying to filter out the people looking for groups legitimately in Gen Chat, when you have to sit there ignoring 12 year olds or filter out that channel because of bickering or trolling, anyway.

 

Oh, I think yeah, LFG thing will happen. Even if it does make me wince, it'll probably pop up. But I expect it to be a train wreck like other places. Even so, at least I know what I'll be going into!

Edited February 14, 2012 by Anomini

[Lerthan]

so?

you press button, spell fires-off mob cc'ed, level of skill required is beyond the godlike…

 

don't make me laugh, and when "CC was necessary and required" classes without long-last cc is screwed for no reason and classed with cc suddenly become more skilled and more desirable

 

this **** must go from mmo games, make fight itself interesting

kill with fire trash like

CC-take-skill

cc-mob with one button is fun

fight one helpeless foe is fun

 

You obviously never played WoW pre-wrath.

 

Yes CC was necessary. and yes players broke it constantly.

 

You dint CC you wiped, period. You had players that broke CC, you wiped. It was a part of the mechanics of the fight and actually did make the fights more challenging.

 

There where actually very few fights that you used CC in where it was just CC everything and fight the mob one at a time. It was CC 3 out of the 8 mobs standing there and hope your tank could take the damage.

 

But enough trying to get a point that you obviously fail to understand due to your limited experiences. Or maybe you are one of those players that likes to stand in fire and cause wipes. Either way you sir, have no understanding of the point I was trying to make and rather then trying to understand the whole point, you instead choose to troll, and frankly I have no desire to continue to debate with somebody that is obviously either a troll or an idiot and I honestly don't think that your an idiot so that leaves troll.

[Senatsu]

Despite the trolls, degraded community, ninjas etc. I'm a bit concerned when it comes to wiping in FPs.

Since you will be able to queue up constantly, more or less, without any repercussions, people tend to leave groups instantly when they see they are about to wipe on a boss, or even if they themselves die just 1 time. Usually leaving a remark about how much the group sucks and need to L2P.

I have seen this happen in WoW. In TBC, you stuck with the group of people you got, despite wiping. If you ended up wiping because of 1 person messing up constantly on the same thing without learning how to get better, even when you've told him, the group used to say that they couldn't progress in the instance because of said player, so they had to kick him.

 

Nowadays the entire group usually falls apart if you wipe. If my group wipes, even once, I have to beg everyone to not leave. It could be because of several things: they can't be bothered to run back in (lazyness), they don't want to risk wiping more when they have a good chance of getting a group where everything goes perfectly, they get pissed because they die at all. There could be any of these, probably even more that I haven't mentioned.

 

I remember getting furious about this, especially at the beginning of Cataclysm. 40+ minutes wait time for a DPS only to have the group leave after 1 wipe. It could have been the WotLK mentality where if your group couldn't AoE down every pack, the group sucked monkeyba***, but it at least happened more frequently after LFD.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Senatsu

[Bulmunk]

 

WoW is the ultimate cash cow and it has a massive user base over seven years after launch. Eight? Who knows.

 

So, why do so many players like WoW? It's not the first MMO, but it's the first one with market penetration anything like this.

 

1. They understand that the majority of their players are casual. They will play a couple hours a night at most.

2. They understand that people want to feel like they've gotten something done in that hour or two. The feeling of accomplishment and progression is absolutely required to maintain that player.

3. They understand that people want to play with their friends and if their friends start quitting they quit too. This goes for even the ultrahardcore raiders.

4. They have devised ways in which you can log in, do cool stuff and log out feeling good.

5. They have made it so even casual players can see all the content and yet the hardcore players still have better stats so they're happy too.

 

So you ask, how does this apply to a LFD tool.

 

Lets assume that Jane Casual plays 2 hours a night, when she logs in she throws a quick LFG in general in her fleet. Unless she's a healer odds are nobody wants her and so she wanders off to go questing. The alternative is sitting there in the fleet spamming general, it's not all that likely to work and if she doesn't get a group in the first hour or so she wouldn't be able to finish anyway. In the former case she is moderately happy, she's bothered a little that she didn't get to see what the Red Reaper looked like but hey she finished her class quest and now she's Darth Jane the Sorcerer. In the latter she's very unhappy as she wastes half her playtime and doesn't find any groups that want her and her lightning then goes out and finishes a couple of quests and has to log out for the night.

 

Not a real good experience.

 

So how does a LFD tool help? She logs in, she clicks that she's interested in doing the level appropriate instances and then runs off to do quests, space combat, pvp or whatever while she waits. Best case it pops quickly and she meets a group of people and they do a couple of runs together. She logs out happy with a few new shiney pieces of loot. Worst case it never pops, in this case she is in the same shape as if she had never even tried from the previous example, and far better off than the one where she hangs around for an hour lfg. Average case might be takes 30 minutes to find a group, she finishes one FP and then goes on her way to try out the shiny new loot.

 

All of those are much better experiences than not having that tool.

 

There was a game that used to like to make things as painful as possible, it was called Everquest. When WoW came out it died. You may be ultra ****** hardcore game ninjas (in your own mind) and enjoy the pain of trying to put together a group on a low pop server off prime time, but guess what... for every one of you there are HUNDREDS of Joe/Jane Casual. If you quit, EA doesn't even notice. If they quit, the game shuts down and they lose you too.

 

Convenience and quality of life is critical to keeping the casual, keeping the casual is critical to staying profitable.

 

I want to see this argument addressed.

[samht]

Originally Posted by boobaffet

Whats funny too is every game that get a lfg tool.. dumb down the content shortly after.

-----

 

Like I said at least in WoW a at tier raid requires a full group of player because WoW is more challenging in ever aspect of the way.

 

http://www.forcejunkies.com/

 

We were contacted by Agent Smith of Midnight Reveries whose guild took on 8-Man Eternity Vault normal mode with only four people- forcejunkies

 

Laughing all the way through my LFR where dps and healing matters and that why wow has addons :)

[DarthKhaos]

Nice read samht. Don't get the last part of your post though. Edited February 15, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[oakamp]

That's a lie

 

The timer was also extended on people who got kicked too often which in the end protected the douche bags

 

If you're going to argue at least stick to the truth

 

Oh and i love how some of the supporters of a LFD tool uses the whole wow bad people got carried thing. You're exactly the kind of people we don't want to group with.

 

if u dont wanna group with them, just dont use that LFD tool,

isnt that easy??

 

someone said u cant invite ppl to group while use x-server LFG,as i said b4,

BW should redesign game architecture,

u should can group any subers in the whole game,

dont block ppl from diff servers.

[ROTTENCORE]

Why can't we have both? Make some servers have the LFG and others not. That way we can all be happy:) I my self don't enjoy the LFG or LFR option.

[MalignX]

Why can't we have both? Make some servers have the LFG and others not. That way we can all be happy:) I my self don't enjoy the LFG or LFR option.

 

Why not just a simple X-Server or In-Server option when you queue up?

Edited February 15, 2012 by MalignX

[Vinge]

Ok, I understand it's the cool thing to do to bash WoW here, but let me give you a little wake up call.

 

SWTOR will never be as successful as WoW. It will never run as long, it will never have as many players.

 

That doesn't mean it's a bad game, that doesn't mean it can't be successful, but trying to claim that you should just do the opposite of WoW in everything is beyond stupid.

 

Here is painful fact number two:

 

EA would sell their souls to have SWTOR or ANY of their games be as successful as WoW

 

WoW is the ultimate cash cow and it has a massive user base over seven years after launch. Eight? Who knows.

 

So, why do so many players like WoW? It's not the first MMO, but it's the first one with market penetration anything like this.

 

1. They understand that the majority of their players are casual. They will play a couple hours a night at most.

2. They understand that people want to feel like they've gotten something done in that hour or two. The feeling of accomplishment and progression is absolutely required to maintain that player.

3. They understand that people want to play with their friends and if their friends start quitting they quit too. This goes for even the ultrahardcore raiders.

4. They have devised ways in which you can log in, do cool stuff and log out feeling good.

5. They have made it so even casual players can see all the content and yet the hardcore players still have better stats so they're happy too.

 

So you ask, how does this apply to a LFD tool.

 

Lets assume that Jane Casual plays 2 hours a night, when she logs in she throws a quick LFG in general in her fleet. Unless she's a healer odds are nobody wants her and so she wanders off to go questing. The alternative is sitting there in the fleet spamming general, it's not all that likely to work and if she doesn't get a group in the first hour or so she wouldn't be able to finish anyway. In the former case she is moderately happy, she's bothered a little that she didn't get to see what the Red Reaper looked like but hey she finished her class quest and now she's Darth Jane the Sorcerer. In the latter she's very unhappy as she wastes half her playtime and doesn't find any groups that want her and her lightning then goes out and finishes a couple of quests and has to log out for the night.

 

Not a real good experience.

 

So how does a LFD tool help? She logs in, she clicks that she's interested in doing the level appropriate instances and then runs off to do quests, space combat, pvp or whatever while she waits. Best case it pops quickly and she meets a group of people and they do a couple of runs together. She logs out happy with a few new shiney pieces of loot. Worst case it never pops, in this case she is in the same shape as if she had never even tried from the previous example, and far better off than the one where she hangs around for an hour lfg. Average case might be takes 30 minutes to find a group, she finishes one FP and then goes on her way to try out the shiny new loot.

 

All of those are much better experiences than not having that tool.

 

There was a game that used to like to make things as painful as possible, it was called Everquest. When WoW came out it died. You may be ultra ****** hardcore game ninjas (in your own mind) and enjoy the pain of trying to put together a group on a low pop server off prime time, but guess what... for every one of you there are HUNDREDS of Joe/Jane Casual. If you quit, EA doesn't even notice. If they quit, the game shuts down and they lose you too.

 

Convenience and quality of life is critical to keeping the casual, keeping the casual is critical to staying profitable.

 

Except Everquest didn't die when WoW came out. It continued to bring in enough subscription numbers to justify SOE carrying on developing and releasing expanions for a further 8 years, eventually going FTP only this year - 9 years after WoWs release and 13 years after Everquest itself was first released. So clearly Everquest continued to be profitable for a considerable length of time after WoW was released.

 

Which just demonstrates that there is an alternative, there are players out there who don't just want the casual approach and there are enough of them to keep a game like Everquest going for over 10 years. Sure, there aren't as many as the casuals but there is still mileage in gaming companies going after these players.

 

However, I do agree that the non-casual playerbase isn't something EA is interested in. They've seen WoWs success and want some of that, they've spent far too much money on this game to be happy with the sort of subscription numbers that games like Everquest pulled in, so LFD is inevitable.

 

It just means that, just as WoW wasnt a game I was personally interested in, neither now is SWTOR.

[Senatsu]

Why not just a simple X-Server or In-Server option when you queue up?

 

People will, again, be indirectly forced to pick cross-server since it will take "so long" to get a group in-server, which means they get to do less content in less time due to people being lazy and can't be bothered to wait. If you have a bus pass, but you know walking is good for you. Will you walk the 3 hours to your grandmother's house? (Since she's 162 years old she wouldn't even know the difference) or would you take the bus pass and use 30 minutes?

 

My WoW guild's raidteam is not full of pros. We have about 3-4 people that has vanilla experience and that has much more skill than the rest, so it usually takes us 5-6 weeks to get down an expansion final boss.

 

We killed DW within 1 week after getting to him. We bashed our heads into his fist for 2 hours on Tuesday last week and saved the lockout only to do him again on Thursday, when he went down. The kill was, to put it mildly, incredibly unsatisfying.

 

In WotLK, we used 6 weeks of wiping to kill the LK. We manage to get to the last phase a few times, but something always went horribly wrong. Until that final try, where everything clicked. Every player almost knew what everyone else was going to do before they even did it. Everything went perfectly.

The feeling of working that hard on a boss, more so on an expansion finale boss and it was the LK(!) so lots of nostalgia for the ones of us familiar with the lore, was absolutely epic. I was shaking all night from joy, I couldn't even sleep that night, it was like a massive adrenaline rush.

 

We went from 4 hour raid nights, 3 days a week for 6 weeks to kill the LK, over to using 5 hours on a boss we had never seen before he died. It was almost sickening how plain and boring that fight was, and the lack of a real sense of accomplishment. On the LK kill, everyone screamed in Vent. On the DW kill, 7 of us went "meh", 1 guy said "Gratz guys" and 2 just left the server and said "goodnight" in guild chat before logging off. It was a sad day in my 7 year career, maybe I'm jaded, but even so. Blizzard hyped him up to being such a ****** motherf..., but he turned out to be another reason to unsub until new content.

I have no plans of doing that fight again, not even on heroic mode.

 

And do you guys know when this decline in difficulty and sense of accomplishment started? When LFD was introduced.

A person who play 2-3 hours a week wouldn't know, but someone that has the ability to raid for 4 hours, 3 nights a week for almost every week of the year... He knows.

 

I guess it's more of the new crowd coming to gaming. When Warcraft 1 was the newest game on the block, there were an extremely low number of people who played it (compared to amount of people who plays video games today). Now that there is a massive amount of people who play all kinds of games, MMO money-whores feel (like Blizzard), feels the need to dumb down the entire genre to get more money in their wallet. The entire industry has suffered for it. I'm not talking about money wise, in that department they're pretty much happier than a clapping retarded seal, but gameplay wise it's completely ruined.

Take a look at games that were created 10-15 years ago, then take a look at games now. If you have a good analytic eye, or if you have that much experience you will notice a clear difference. The money is in the people who only can play 3 hours a week, so companies dumb their games down to make them buy it and keep paying.

This has got to stop, it's nice that Blizzard tried to cater to a bigger crowd with the LFD, but as far as gameplay goes, the entire thing just died. Vanilla, was a step too far into the hardcore direction, TBC was better (I played for 6 hours for 1 weekend every 2 weeks during that time and even I could get down Illidan and Kil'jaeden before WotLK), WotLK was a step way too far into the money-whoring, Blizzard tried to redeem themselves with Cataclysm, but quickly went over to the WotLK model.

 

I don't want SWTOR to turn into something only hardcore players can play, but I don't want it to turn into casual-heaven like WoW has become. Right now, it seems to be in the perfect place, granted I haven't tried any raids yet since I've been too caught up in the story.

 

Just one final note, read my sig. If you don't know what I mean: Google it!

[MalignX]

Sorry, still want X-Server LFG. I appreciate your passionate post though, you give your answers thought than most at least.

[Agenteusa]

Nowadays the entire group usually falls apart if you wipe. If my group wipes, even once, I have to beg everyone to not leave. It could be because of several things: they can't be bothered to run back in (lazyness), they don't want to risk wiping more when they have a good chance of getting a group where everything goes perfectly, they get pissed because they die at all. There could be any of these, probably even more that I haven't mentioned.

 

I remember getting furious about this, especially at the beginning of Cataclysm. 40+ minutes wait time for a DPS only to have the group leave after 1 wipe. It could have been the WotLK mentality where if your group couldn't AoE down every pack, the group sucked monkeyba***, but it at least happened more frequently after LFD.

 

this is exactly why I have been objecting the implementation of x-server LFD´s .

 

Whoever claims didn´t experience this in Wow either is lying or only did content with guildies.

 

Waiting in fleet waiting for a tank gets you bored.

Waiting for 10 or less minutes for and LFD and then after a wipe or whatever random reason you get kicked or everyone leaves gets you angry.

 

I honestly prefer to have servers with bored people than angry people since its a downward spiral from there.

[corbanite]

Yes. easy to form groups lose value. As a tank why should I put up with the slightest mistake from a bunch of nobodies? My queues pop in seconds. I'll just re queue and hopefully next time I will get a good group and have an easy run.

 

I can get a good group as a tank far quicker then you can get any group as a DPS.

 

Best of all I'll just be an *** in a bad group and get kicked and hopefully ignored so I wont have to group with them again.

Edited February 15, 2012 by corbanite

[DarthRik]

i find it funny that a few weeks ago we had posts begging for a LFG tool, now the dev have said there working on it, its now changed to a cross server lfg tool

 

its clear that an lfg tool like wows is a bad idear, wow has lost more subs since it was added in wrath than when it didnt, thats a fact, there highest sub numbers was during TBC and if i remember it was close to 13 million, since TBC and the start of the easy mode wrath xpac numbers have dropped

 

1.8 million last year alone, and they have now got a LFR tool as well

 

every one in this thread screaming out for a LFG tool that is cross server is an ex or current wow player that wants easy mode game play, they dont want to talk to there fellow gamers and want call of duty lobby mode in swtor

 

cross server lfg is so very bad for the game and for the players, it will not fix low pop servers, it will just make it worse.

 

in the long run you might as well remove the heroic quests as no one will be doing them because every one will be in the fleet spamming there lfg tool. wow mark 2 will be made

 

blizzard spend a tone of cash on redoing old content for 1-60 yet no one really sees it as they are in the citys spamming lfg

 

how that is a good idear and why you would want that in swtor i have no idear.

[HavenAE]

I don't have a reason for not having a LFD/LFG tool, if it stays on the same server.

 

I do have a little bit of a problem with cross-server but not as much as some of these people.

 

 

If it comes it comes if not... well it'll only further prove this game is going no where fast.

[HavenAE]

Except Everquest didn't die when WoW came out. It continued to bring in enough subscription numbers to justify SOE carrying on developing and releasing expanions for a further 8 years, eventually going FTP only this year - 9 years after WoWs release and 13 years after Everquest itself was first released. So clearly Everquest continued to be profitable for a considerable length of time after WoW was released.

 

Which just demonstrates that there is an alternative, there are players out there who don't just want the casual approach and there are enough of them to keep a game like Everquest going for over 10 years. Sure, there aren't as many as the casuals but there is still mileage in gaming companies going after these players.

 

However, I do agree that the non-casual playerbase isn't something EA is interested in. They've seen WoWs success and want some of that, they've spent far too much money on this game to be happy with the sort of subscription numbers that games like Everquest pulled in, so LFD is inevitable.

 

It just means that, just as WoW wasnt a game I was personally interested in, neither now is SWTOR.

 

 

EXCEPT EQ was already well established and had made back it's initial investment at least 100 fold by the time WoW came out.

 

Conversely FFXI pretty much DID DIE when WoW came out and it was a relatively popular game, but also a relatively new one. (I was still playing FFXI when EQ2 and WoW launched, it was pretty lonely)

 

EQ2 DID die when WoW picked up steam (EQ2 and WoW launched in the same month), it just went full F2P (as opposed to quasi-F2P, which it was) and EQ1 is soon to follow.

 

But really, what happened then has absolutely NOTHING to do with what happens now.

Edited February 15, 2012 by HavenAE

[KrelosDarksky]

ABSOLUTELY 100% not needed in this game.

[Vinge]

EXCEPT EQ was already well established and had made back it's initial investment at least 100 fold by the time WoW came out.

 

Conversely FFXI pretty much DID DIE when WoW came out and it was a relatively popular game, but also a relatively new one. (I was still playing FFXI when EQ2 and WoW launched, it was pretty lonely)

 

EQ2 DID die when WoW picked up steam (EQ2 and WoW launched in the same month), it just went full F2P (as opposed to quasi-F2P, which it was) and EQ1 is soon to follow.

 

But really, what happened then has absolutely NOTHING to do with what happens now.

 

The poster I was responding to claimed that EQ died when WoW was released and was using this to justify why the WoW model is the only viable one.

 

All I was stating was that EQ didn't die when WoW was released. Because it clearly didn't.

 

FFXI and EQ2 were never mentioned, which is why I also didn't comment on them.

[DarthRik]

Ok, I understand it's the cool thing to do to bash WoW here, but let me give you a little wake up call.

 

SWTOR will never be as successful as WoW. It will never run as long, it will never have as many players.

 

That doesn't mean it's a bad game, that doesn't mean it can't be successful, but trying to claim that you should just do the opposite of WoW in everything is beyond stupid.

 

Here is painful fact number two:

 

EA would sell their souls to have SWTOR or ANY of their games be as successful as WoW

 

WoW is the ultimate cash cow and it has a massive user base over seven years after launch. Eight? Who knows.

 

So, why do so many players like WoW? It's not the first MMO, but it's the first one with market penetration anything like this.

 

1. They understand that the majority of their players are casual. They will play a couple hours a night at most.

2. They understand that people want to feel like they've gotten something done in that hour or two. The feeling of accomplishment and progression is absolutely required to maintain that player.

3. They understand that people want to play with their friends and if their friends start quitting they quit too. This goes for even the ultrahardcore raiders.

4. They have devised ways in which you can log in, do cool stuff and log out feeling good.

5. They have made it so even casual players can see all the content and yet the hardcore players still have better stats so they're happy too.

 

So you ask, how does this apply to a LFD tool.

 

Lets assume that Jane Casual plays 2 hours a night, when she logs in she throws a quick LFG in general in her fleet. Unless she's a healer odds are nobody wants her and so she wanders off to go questing. The alternative is sitting there in the fleet spamming general, it's not all that likely to work and if she doesn't get a group in the first hour or so she wouldn't be able to finish anyway. In the former case she is moderately happy, she's bothered a little that she didn't get to see what the Red Reaper looked like but hey she finished her class quest and now she's Darth Jane the Sorcerer. In the latter she's very unhappy as she wastes half her playtime and doesn't find any groups that want her and her lightning then goes out and finishes a couple of quests and has to log out for the night.

 

Not a real good experience.

 

So how does a LFD tool help? She logs in, she clicks that she's interested in doing the level appropriate instances and then runs off to do quests, space combat, pvp or whatever while she waits. Best case it pops quickly and she meets a group of people and they do a couple of runs together. She logs out happy with a few new shiney pieces of loot. Worst case it never pops, in this case she is in the same shape as if she had never even tried from the previous example, and far better off than the one where she hangs around for an hour lfg. Average case might be takes 30 minutes to find a group, she finishes one FP and then goes on her way to try out the shiny new loot.

 

All of those are much better experiences than not having that tool.

 

There was a game that used to like to make things as painful as possible, it was called Everquest. When WoW came out it died. You may be ultra ****** hardcore game ninjas (in your own mind) and enjoy the pain of trying to put together a group on a low pop server off prime time, but guess what... for every one of you there are HUNDREDS of Joe/Jane Casual. If you quit, EA doesn't even notice. If they quit, the game shuts down and they lose you too.

 

Convenience and quality of life is critical to keeping the casual, keeping the casual is critical to staying profitable.

 

but what your saying is wrong, since wow put the LFG into the game they have lost subs

 

fact

 

last year seen the worst drop in wow subs ever.. 1.8 million in one year thats massive.

 

before LFG wows subs were on the rise, now there dropping

[ferroz]

People will, again, be indirectly forced to pick cross-server since it will take "so long" to get a group in-server, which means they get to do less content in less time due to people being lazy and can't be bothered to wait.

No, forced is not true. They'll choose to pick cross server because convenience matters more to them than any advantage gained by staying single server.

 

If you have a bus pass, but you know walking is good for you. Will you walk the 3 hours to your grandmother's house? (Since she's 162 years old she wouldn't even know the difference) or would you take the bus pass and use 30 minutes?

Hey, I'm not the quasi amish guy, pushing for anti-convenience.

 

and if this is analagous to your argument... you're saying that busses are bad for the RL community.

 

 

 

My WoW guild's raidteam is not full of pros. We have about 3-4 people that has vanilla experience and that has much more skill than the rest, so it usually takes us 5-6 weeks to get down an expansion final boss.

 

We killed DW within 1 week after getting to him.

All of this is an argument against easy content; it has nothing to do with the lfg tool.

 

We went from 4 hour raid nights, 3 days a week for 6 weeks to kill the LK,

It took us a maybe couple of weeks longer, but we were doing 3 hour raid nights (sometimes less, we didn't always get started at 10, but always cut off at 1), twice a week (sometimes once a week). Lets no pretend that ICC was actually all that hard.

 

I have no plans of doing that fight again, not even on heroic mode.

Eh, blizzard has moved to the model of "heroic mode = the actual challenging content" ... if you skip doing it on hard mode, and only do it on easy, you have only yourself to blame if it's too easy.

 

And do you guys know when this decline in difficulty and sense of accomplishment started? When LFD was introduced.

No, the difficulty dropped long before that.

 

Take a look at games that were created 10-15 years ago, then take a look at games now. If you have a good analytic eye, or if you have that much experience you will notice a clear difference.

Yeah, back then they used to think that time sink + frustrating game mechanics = hard. They're learned better since then.

 

 

I don't want SWTOR to turn into something only hardcore players can play, but I don't want it to turn into casual-heaven like WoW has become. Right now, it seems to be in the perfect place, granted I haven't tried any raids yet since I've been too caught up in the story.

Kind of interesting that you admit that you haven't experienced the whole game, but feel qualified to pronounce judgement on the game as a whole. Edited February 15, 2012 by ferroz

[ferroz]

All I was stating was that EQ didn't die when WoW was released. Because it clearly didn't.

within a year of wow's launch, EQ had lost 2/3 of it's playerbase (from it's peak at 550k down to 200k).

 

the game didn't hit the zapper, but it was really dead at that point. You can't pull the "I'm don't dead yet! I feel happy!" bit if you want, but you're not fooling anyone. Certainly, the game existed, but soe siphoning money out of it's bloated corpse is hardly "alive"

Edited February 15, 2012 by ferroz

[Senatsu]

Yes. easy to form groups lose value. As a tank why should I put up with the slightest mistake from a bunch of nobodies? My queues pop in seconds. I'll just re queue and hopefully next time I will get a good group and have an easy run.

 

I can get a good group as a tank far quicker then you can get any group as a DPS.

 

Best of all I'll just be an *** in a bad group and get kicked and hopefully ignored so I wont have to group with them again.

 

This is exactly the mentality that will be in every player if an LFD tool is put in. I had enough of that just after a few weeks after the LFD tool was put into WoW, don't need to go through the same thing here.

 

It's frustrating that it takes longer to get a group, but it will be much, much worse when everyone leaves after 1 wipe or any other reason and you have to queue all over again. Especially as a DPS.

[Senatsu]

No, forced is not true. They'll choose to pick cross server because convenience matters more to them than any advantage gained by staying single server.

 

If an LFD tool gets put in, no one will go through the same process as they do now to get a group. Just like in WoW. Therefore, you won't find a group -> won't get into FPs -> won't get gear -> won't get into raids. How is that optional?

 

Hey, I'm not the quasi amish guy, pushing for anti-convenience.

 

and if this is analagous to your argument... you're saying that busses are bad for the RL community.

 

It meant it more like walking keeps you healthy due to exercise, while sitting on your butt in a car or bus makes you lazier. So the community as a whole gets fatter. Of course, in real life, public transport is cheaper, more ecological and social. I guess I should have explained that analogy in a bit more detail.

 

All of this is an argument against easy content; it has nothing to do with the lfg tool.

 

If you look at my previous explanation as to how the mentality of players will change when they can easily get a group with no effort, that will change into players whining that content is too hard when they wipe even once. This will change how the content designers make FPs, HM FPs and Operations in the future, possibly even nerf the current ones. It's more of an observation to what happens in the long run instead of a short-term view of an introduction to a tool of this caliber.

 

It took us a maybe couple of weeks longer, but we were doing 3 hour raid nights (sometimes less, we didn't always get started at 10, but always cut off at 1), twice a week (sometimes once a week). Lets no pretend that ICC was actually all that hard.

 

My raidteam is filled with people who has troubles locating the "W" key in the heat of the moment, the healers suck monkeyballs as they can heal when they have to move a bit to the side to avoid fire = they either stand in fire and heal, or they don't heal and hold down the "W" key for 0.5 seconds. Sad, I know, but there you go.

 

Eh, blizzard has moved to the model of "heroic mode = the actual challenging content" ... if you skip doing it on hard mode, and only do it on easy, you have only yourself to blame if it's too easy.

 

I was comparing the difficulty of normal mode Lich King to normal mode Deathwing.

 

Yeah, back then they used to think that time sink + frustrating game mechanics = hard. They're learned better since then.

 

Yes, hopefully they have learned of the long-term consequences of such a tool, and brain up before they let it loose in this game. I'm all for making it easier, even make a new interface and a new system would be good, but I would prefer to have something similar to the TBC model (that was further improved upon in patch 3.1) than the WotLK LFD tool (introduced in patch 3.3). It had a very short life, so I'm not surprised people don't know about it.

 

Kind of interesting that you admit that you haven't experienced the whole game, but feel qualified to pronounce judgement on the game as a whole.

 

I doubt I need to experience raids before I'm "qualified" to have an opinion on a tool that will be specific to Flashpoints. Especially with my 7 year experience in World of Warcraft and the observations I made before and after the implementation of an LFD tool. There is a chance that player reaction will be different in this game, but are you really willing to take the chance? At this point, I have very little faith in human logic, so I'm certainly not willing to accept (without a fight) such a tool be implemented.

 

I'm purely looking at exactly how the LFD tool in World of Warcraft works, not what type of changes, limitations, additions or options that BioWare might put into it.

[Orisai]

but what your saying is wrong, since wow put the LFG into the game they have lost subs

 

fact

 

last year seen the worst drop in wow subs ever.. 1.8 million in one year thats massive.

 

before LFG wows subs were on the rise, now there dropping

 

lol

 

WoW lost suscriptions because people got bored of it. Warcraft itself as a franchise, died with Arthas, and what came after is just filler content which tried to recreate the mess Burning Crusade was, then Add Kung Fu Panda and Pokemon as an ultimate attempt to keep more people playing the game.

 

People may hate the LFG in WoW, but it's far from being THE cause for 1.8M of the playerbase to quit the game.