Metalmac Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) Hidden strike got nerfed in damage, but it now doesnt fill resolve all the way now. That means that a smart OP can just chain CC you and even double hidden strike you if they want and deal massive damage to you before you can do a thing. If you seriously think that their 3 stab rotation isnt OP, where other classes actually need to hit procs and think things through, that can take someone down almost instantly esp medium/light armors you are delusional. The only "nerf" they had at all was the acid blade. They can get the jump on you (which an operative should) deal massive damage at the very start, pop a complete immune to damage buff, pop hots, and do a 3 button out dps every class rotation in 1 v 1 scenarios and can stealth in combat anytime and let their hots heal them and repeat the process before most can even respond/heal up and they just repeat the process. Operatives/Scoundrels only cry now that they are too weak because they cant crit people for 6k+ with a hidden strike anymore and nearly kill juggs/guardians instantly. They still need to work for it some but the one class that every class has trouble facing is Operatives/Scoundrels. The only classes that really even have any counter measure against ops is Trooper/BH with stealth scan, which doesnt do jack when they get the jump on you..You cant expect troopers/bh to just throw stealth scans down every CD randomly and hope they find a random operative/scoundrel. Take out the in combat stealth, then the class would be balanced imo Edit - Forgot Vanguards/powertechs. Basically they can hybrid specced for insane dps and insane self heals/armor. On my 674 Expertise BH i get stock striked for 2-3k by champ geared. I can get hit for 3-5k by those who use the last shared tree skill thermal grenade. (Idk the name of the trooper version) The class has amazing self heals, armor, defensive cooldowns, and insane dots/burst that in 1 v 1 scenerios most cannot out dps them because of their heavy armor/huge bursts/self heals/spammable attacks. Most just run in circles spamming stock strike/some random dots while shooting that electro shock crap (again, dont know name of the trooper version) that they can spam near infinitely that hit my 613 Expertise marauder for 1-2.5k. Note this is a spammable attack where they can out dps my annihilation spec (and yes i play the class correctly, ty) in 1 v 1 scenarios at almost 1-2k per use, as my dots barely bring down their self heal/guards. But still, i find OPeratives much more difficult to kill on all of my classes in 1 v 1. vanguards/powertechs i can still kill but overall they are just an insane class, but still extremely difficult to 1 v 1. Most OP for me though are OPeratives. You need to play a Scrapper to see how often I get locked down or killed all the time. Anyone that knows what they are doing will kill me easy. The noobs are clueless and cry nerf. Scrapper has no high speed charge or escape, and dot destory STEALTH without which we are just a easy target like a Sage without a shield and no cc less then 10 meters. Edited February 13, 2012 by Metalmac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laoi Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) Explain what they contribute to a warzone that another class can't provide better or do just as well, with some extra benefits. How a class fares in 1v1 is irrelevant to balance at this point in time. no its not lol. but that aside they can still take a healer/caster down very fast if played by a competent player. they can still rank quite high in total dmgaswell if again played by a competent player. another option is they can be healspecced. arguebly not the best healer i know but still a healer and again how good a healer actually is depends very much on the player rather than the class. id take a good scoundrel healer over 90% of those aweful sages anytime anyday. they got a slight nerf to their ridiculously overpowered opener combo which was absolutely justified. i still see good scoundrels doing perfectly fine. if u seriously think they are the worst class than maybe its not the class but you who cant handle a class that aint overpowered as hell anymore. Edited February 13, 2012 by Laoi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryotknife Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Explain what they contribute to a warzone that another class can't provide better or do just as well, with some extra benefits. How a class fares in 1v1 is irrelevant to balance at this point in time. by that definition, 5-6 classes can claim they are the weakest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbadisbad Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) no its not lol. but that aside they can still take a healer/caster down very fast if played by a competent player. they can still rank quite high in total dmgaswell if again played by a competent player. another option is they can be healspecced. arguebly not the best healer i know but still a healer and again how good a healer actually is depends very much on the player rather than the class. id take a good scoundrel healer over 90% of those aweful sages anytime anyday. they got a slight nerf to their ridiculously overpowered opener combo which was absolutely justified. i still see good scoundrels doing perfectly fine. if i seriously think they are the worst class than maybe its not the class but you who cant handle a class that aint overpowered as hell anymore. If the healer caster is also played by a competent player they will either kill you or get away safely if they are unable to kill you because you lack any sort of chase ability. Total damage means nothing if we are talking about class balance. Utility is what matters. You can healspec an Operative, but Sorcs and Mercs will preform much better at the same skill level. Their opener combo was nerfed pretty hard, and it was the only strength they had before it was nerfed. They are no longer a viable pick for PvE or PvP because other classes offer more utility in warzones and operations. by that definition, 5-6 classes can claim they are the weakest. Make a list... Edited February 13, 2012 by Howbadisbad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metalmac Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) no its not lol. but that aside they can still take a healer/caster down very fast if played by a competent player. they can still rank quite high in total dmgaswell if again played by a competent player. another option is they can be healspecced. arguebly not the best healer i know but still a healer and again how good a healer actually is depends very much on the player rather than the class. id take a good scoundrel healer over 90% of those aweful sages anytime anyday. they got a slight nerf to their ridiculously overpowered opener combo which was absolutely justified. i still see good scoundrels doing perfectly fine. if i seriously think they are the worst class than maybe its not the class but you who cant handle a class that aint overpowered as hell anymore. The problem with the Scrapper being weak is the huge nerf to sustained damage and the nerf to Armor Pen. Not to mention the 2 moves we can make while our mirror Operative can do 4 in the same amount of time due to huge animation delays. You can not just click the next abiltity until the stupid animation of shotgun is done. SOOO much slower then Operative Backstab. You hear a Oprative go stab, stab, stab, stab and in comparison a Scrapper does half that much damage in the same time. Imperial favoritsm at it's best. As for Scoundrel healing in PVP sucks, more exposed and less defenses then any healer. I am afraid you do not know what your are talking about. Edited February 13, 2012 by Metalmac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryotknife Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) If the healer caster is also played by a competent player they will either kill you or get away safely if they are unable to kill you because you lack any sort of chase ability. Total damage means nothing if we are talking about class balance. Utility is what matters. You can healspec an Operative, but Sorcs and Mercs will preform much better at the same skill level. Their opener combo was nerfed pretty hard, and it was the only strength they had before it was nerfed. They are no longer a viable pick for PvE or PvP because other classes offer more utility in warzones and operations. Make a list... pts snipers mars juggs ops anything pts/mara/ops/juggs can do, assassins can do better with more toys anything snipers can do, sorcs can do....almost as well with a crapton more toys. mercs are kinda the wild card depending on your qq factor. my level 17 assassin has a ton more utility than my level 50 pt and can easily single handedly win wzs without much effort at all thanks to stealth in ald and stealth/sprint in void and huttball. whereas my pt has to follow a group and basically just taunt on every CD to be even 10% as useful as an assassin (in huttball, 50% as effective). Edited February 13, 2012 by Ryotknife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laoi Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The problem with the Scrapper being weak is the huge nerf to sustained damage and the nerf to Armor Pen. Not to mention the 2 moves we can make while our mirror Operative can do 4 in the same amount of time due to huge animation delays. You can not just click the next abiltity until the stupid animation of shotgun is done. SOOO much slower then Operative Backstab. You hear a Oprative go stab, stab, stab, stab and in comparison a Scrapper does half that much damage in the same time. Imperial favoritsm at it's best. As for Scoundrel healing in PVP sucks, more exposed and less defenses then any healer. I am afraid you do not know what your are talking about. i know perfectly well what im talking about, probably far better than 99.9% on these boards. i also said that its arguebly the worst healer. still a good player can do fine with the class. worst defense? yes probably. l2position urself. scoundrel relies on that more than the other healers that can be played by a cow yes. i guess u cant expect from todays mmo players to understand the importance of good positioning anymore, too many easymode ****games that were made for bads that ignore all the skill elements oldschool mmos had. u realize in a proper game ANY attackwhatsoever will instantly cancel ur cast and interupt u for 3-5 secs? hard to imagine huh? back in the old days games actually required skill. a player who played during that time and was good will know how proper positioning works. such a player will get himself into trouble a ****ton less and do fine with just vanish when **** rly hits the fan. animation differences is a problem for literally all pub classes. bioware just loves imps more, nothing new. however "half dmg" is massively exaggerated. overall the class is harder to play now yes. probably the 3rd hardest class to play in the game now. that leads to alot of ppl failing which leaves the false impression that its a bad class. no its not u just need to l2p. same goes for shadows and sentinels they are not bad classes at all, just a bad player on those classes will inevitably fail and then come to these boards and whine that his class sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbadisbad Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) pts snipers mars juggs ops anything pts/mara/ops/juggs can do, assassins can do better with more toys anything snipers can do, sorcs can do....almost as well with a crapton more toys. mercs are kinda the wild card depending on your qq factor. my level 17 assassin has a ton more utility than my level 50 pt and can easily single handedly win wzs without much effort at all thanks to stealth in ald and stealth/sprint in void and huttball. whereas my pt has to follow a group and basically just taunt on every CD to be even 10% as useful as an assassin (in huttball, 50% as effective). Powertechs are much more tanky than Sins and come with grapple, which is incredibly strong. Maraurders have better mobility and sustained DPS than Assassins (Highest sustained DPS in the game). I'm not sure what juggs can do so won't comment here Snipers are also kind of UP, lack of mobility and utility is a problem for IA as a whole. Operatives have relatively the same burst as Assassins, less sustained damage, less surviveability, less mobility, and less utility. Edited February 13, 2012 by Howbadisbad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugattiboy Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 You wanna talk the most OP classes? Sorcerer. When you spec it right Lightning costs nothing, has no cooldown, and there is a slow on top of everything. Same with any class that uses cover. It absorbs almost all damage, makes you uninterpretable, and no one can leap at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulsilence Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Ops OP? better nerf irelia. +1 owait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AetherMcLoud Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Commando / Mercenary healers. Sages I can deal with with all their tricks, but at least they really get hurt once you are on them. Commandos though? They also have a knockback which slows you, and when you are on them they don't even get hurt that much with heavy armor, and then they pop their bubble which makes them interrupt immune which makes me a sad panda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryotknife Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) Powertechs are much more tanky than Sins and come with grapple, which is incredibly strong. Maraurders have better mobility and sustained DPS than Assassins (Highest sustained DPS in the game). I'm not sure what juggs can do so won't comment here Snipers are also kind of UP, lack of mobility and utility is a problem for IA as a whole. Operatives have relatively the same burst as Assassins, less sustained damage, less surviveability, less mobility, and less utility. pts have far FAR less survivability, and sins have grapple too and theirs works better. theirs is instant and they dont have to see your FEET in order to use it. grapple on the other hand has a 2 second delay and only works when i can see your feet. making it very easy for grapple to only pull you 5 feet. it happens all the time in huttball when i try to grapple when i jump off the top catwalk into the pit grappling the ballcarrier on the way down. not to mention assassins have managed to pull me right before i crosses the finish line while they were in the pit, but on my pt unless you are standing right on the edge it wont let you grapple them down. same thing if the ball carrier is walking down the middle ramp to the goalline. if he is in the middle, cant grapple him. on my assassin, unless he is running on the FAR ledge of the catwalk, i can grapple him. also, pts have no escape tools and our only defensive tool is -25% damage for 12 seconds, laughable compared to aoe knockback, sprint, force cloak, force shroud, and deflection. armor? useless in pvp except against snipers. shields? ends up being about 10% damage mitigation, something that assassins also have. but oh wait, did i mention that assassins get 10% mitigation against internal and elemental damage, the most PREVALENT damage in pvp which probably reduces as much damage in pvp as my 50% armor (in tanking stance)? did you know that assassins ALSO have armor? hell, my assassin doesnt even have force cloak, shroud, or deflection yet and he still has an easier time surviving. and no, assassins have the same mobility as maras shame too, because the last thing i wanted to do was to roll a jedi/sith as i find heavily armored jetpacking missile carrying troops more interesting. Edited February 13, 2012 by Ryotknife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
propht Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Ops OP? better nerf irelia. dat early self sustain is too op. true dmg is also op. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xezkaiel Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I think its a fairly balanced pvp already (beats the hell out of wows pvp "balance" already at least) (also....I do love wow still, but its not balanced) If I had to pick one op class its prob a well played sorc or sage...they irritate me the way frost mages do in wow XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbadisbad Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 pts have far FAR less survivability, and sins have grapple too and theirs works better. theirs is instant and they dont have to see your FEET in order to use it. grapple on the other hand has a 2 second delay and only works when i can see your feet. making it very easy for grapple to only pull you 5 feet. it happens all the time in huttball when i try to grapple when i jump off the top catwalk into the pit grappling the ballcarrier on the way down. not to mention assassins have managed to pull me right before i crosses the finish line while they were in the pit, but on my pt unless you are standing right on the edge it wont let you grapple them down. same thing if the ball carrier is walking down the middle ramp to the goalline. if he is in the middle, cant grapple him. on my assassin, unless he is running on the FAR ledge of the catwalk, i can grapple him. also, pts have no escape tools and our only defensive tool is -25% damage for 12 seconds, laughable compared to aoe knockback, sprint, force cloak, force shroud, and deflection. armor? useless in pvp except against snipers. shields? ends up being about 10% damage mitigation, something that assassins also have. but oh wait, did i mention that assassins get 10% mitigation against internal and elemental damage, the most PREVALENT damage in pvp which probably reduces as much damage in pvp as my 50% armor (in tanking stance)? did you know that assassins ALSO have armor? hell, my assassin doesnt even have force cloak, shroud, or deflection yet and he still has an easier time surviving. and no, assassins have the same mobility as maras shame too, because the last thing i wanted to do was to roll a jedi/sith as i find heavily armored jetpacking missile carrying troops more interesting. I was just going based on what I've experienced when facing PTs. Not really knowledgeable about them so you may be right there. Mara mobility vs Sin mobility is an opinion thing Mara has better offensive mobility but Sin has better defensive mobility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eager Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 While we are an incredibly awesome class to play - if played correctly - I once again see descriptions of the sacred 31/31/31 build. Someday I will unlock it. Someday... Oh and the heals part is BS. We get a single little HOT and another one if specced full Tactics. Otherwise yeah, we can 1v1 pretty much every class and pretty much every class can 1v1 us. Depends a lot on who started first and who is actually controlling the avatar My 31/8/2 tank can do wonders when backed up with a good player, healer or not, but still is far from immortal or single-target DPS. A nice Tactics or Assault build on the other hand can burn through enemies but doesn't have Guard, Storm or the survivability. Etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryotknife Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) I was just going based on what I've experienced when facing PTs. Not really knowledgeable about them so you may be right there. Mara mobility vs Sin mobility is an opinion thing Mara has better offensive mobility but Sin has better defensive mobility. ehhh i can see that going either way. grapple (force pull) can only be used offensively in relation to yourself (obviously pulling someone off your healer is a wise defensive move for you team, but to you you now have an angry melee gnawing on your elbow). charge can be used offensively or defensively, although it is a bit more difficult to use defensively as it requires an enemy to be at 30m. and sprint (force speed) can be used for both. Edited February 14, 2012 by Ryotknife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) definitely the sage: http://www.jedilace.com/ss/Screenshot_2012-02-03_20_01_38_965819.jpg Edited February 14, 2012 by Orangerascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonTheImpaler Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Operatives. They can still get 2.5k damage medals which is far too much burst for their class to have. HAHAHAHAHA definitely should only be hitting you with 2's and 3's, going over 10 damage is just insane, that should only be up to the inquisitors to do at least 5k-8k hits, stupid of Bioware to make the cannon fodder class do damage at all if you ask me you really need to think before you say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justgiveme Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Operatives. They have stealth and kill me SOLO in 25 seconds when im 50% hp. Also they have too much utility coupled with high dps (they get 2.5k medal as pointed by another user). Please nerf. Edited February 14, 2012 by Justgiveme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Operatives. They have stealth and kill me SOLO in 25 seconds when im 50% hp. Also they have too much utility coupled with high dps (they get 2.5k medal as pointed by another user). Please nerf. yeah operatives are sooo bad ... From another thread I must be doing something right because I don't find the same problems: http://www.jedilace.com/ss/Screenshot_2012-02-11_18_52_15_765448.jpg http://www.jedilace.com/ss/Screenshot_2012-02-11_19_47_16_763254.jpg http://www.jedilace.com/ss/Screenshot_2012-02-13_23_47_40_610369.jpg I know, I know ... List of future excuses ---------------------------- 1) Get to 50 ... (i intend to don't worry) 2) I was playing lowbies ... (you'll need to take my word I wasn't) 3) You only do good in alderan (actually I used 1 ss of each wf) 4) Scoundrels have no utility (notice how I hardly die ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonTheImpaler Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Operatives. They have stealth and kill me SOLO in 25 seconds when im 50% hp. Also they have too much utility coupled with high dps (they get 2.5k medal as pointed by another user). Please nerf. lol they are way OP if they kill you, 2.5k medal is there so people can do that damage? if no one could do it why put it in the game? Stop trolling and complaining until you get a Godmod cheat. 25 seconds is like an hour in PvP, if you can't kill someone in less than 15 seconds you're taking to long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justgiveme Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) lol they are way OP if they kill you, 2.5k medal is there so people can do that damage? if no one could do it why put it in the game? Stop trolling and complaining until you get a Godmod cheat. 25 seconds is like an hour in PvP, if you can't kill someone in less than 15 seconds you're taking to long Take sarcasm 101, please. yeah operatives are sooo bad ... From another thread O look, 1-49 pvp screenshots. I'm always top 3 in damage/kills every match with my 13/14 bm op, but i'm very aware that my contribution to victories is nothing compared to other classes that can output just as much or more damage and actually win the game. Edited February 14, 2012 by Justgiveme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonTheImpaler Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 yeah operatives are sooo bad ... From another thread Call the WAAAAAAHHHMULANCE 3K hit the biggest hit? How are you gonna have enough health out of the 8k health you have left to defeat him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Call the WAAAAAAHHHMULANCE 3K hit the biggest hit? How are you gonna have enough health out of the 8k health you have left to defeat him? By not crying on the forums about how my class is gimp Edited February 14, 2012 by Orangerascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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