Give me a legitimate reason to NOT have a LFD tool.

[mothear]

I wish people would stop saying there is a choice in using LFD, because in the end there won't be.

 

From the Wow experience:-

 

FACT - LFD server wide didn't work, the queues were too long.

 

FACT - An incentive was introduced to entice people to take part (badges, or in SWTOR's case free commendations) - this still didn't work to lower queue times.

 

FACT - LFD went cross server however queue times stubbingly remained 20 minutes plus - often over 1 hour in quiet times.

 

FACT - WoW had to introduce role based incentives to get more tanks/healers.

 

When I unsubbed WoW queues were around 10 minutes at peak times.

 

Whilst I have some 'community' issues my experience is that offering incentives is what made WoW LFD the problems as it ensured that those that didn't want to run the dungeon had to for their daily valor points - valor points buy raid gear in WoW - so even those that didn't want to use the tool had to to stay competitive if they raided.

 

From WotLK - when LFD was introduce - until the next expansion the spamming LFD disappeared. It did return for a while after the next expansion because the new dungeons were too hard for LFD groups, so this content was nerfed. Same thing happened in 4.1.

 

The pro LFD people want a fact as to why LFD is not a good idea It will lead to nerfing content because it can only work to the poorest person in the group. And that is a fact.

Edited February 13, 2012 by mothear

[Amiracle]

Yes. People want quick groups without a hassle. If they want to play that why is that wrong again?

 

It's not that content isn't being cleared is that a LFD tool allows more content to be cleared by players. More people get to experience endgame content. How is that a bad thing?

 

Being social has nothing to do with being on a low pop server or playing at odd times. LFD helps with that.

 

If you allowed people to run FPs, for example, with companions wouldn't that lower the number of people looking for groups. Thought the idea here was to be social and play with others?

 

Exactly how many people are being stopped from doing the group content?

 

So far all I see is you because you refuse to be social. See your first comment.

 

If you are on a low pop server a lfg tool wont help. Your server is still low pop. But you refuse to move to a higher pop and rather just sit and wallow.

 

Your view of grouping is treating other like companions, you have no wish to be social with these people. Your only goal is do the content that you want to do. You community is you because you choose it.

 

And you never sis explain how a cross server LFG tool would help people on your server get together. Seems to me that a cross server would just allow you to do what you want.

 

Have you thought that you may be part of the reason why there is no community on your server as you say? Because you are only interested in your experience?

 

Thats what I am taking away from this.

[Amiracle]

I wish people would stop saying there is a choice in using LFD, because in the end there won't be.

 

From the Wow experience:-

 

FACT - LFD server wide didn't work, the queues were too long.

 

FACT - An incentive was introduced to entice people to take part (badges, or in SWTOR's case free commendations) - this still didn't work to lower queue times.

 

FACT - LFD went cross server however queue times stubbingly remained 20 minutes plus - often over 1 hour in quiet times.

 

FACT - WoW had to introduce role based incentives to get more tanks/healers.

 

When I unsubbed WoW queues were around 10 minutes at peak times.

 

Whilst I have some 'community' issues my experience is that offering incentives is what made WoW LFD the problems as it ensured that those that didn't want to run the dungeon had to for their daily valor points - valor points buy raid gear in WoW - so even those that didn't want to use the tool had to to stay competitive if they raided.

 

From WotLK - when LFD was introduce - until the next expansion the spamming LFD disappeared. It did return for a while after the next expansion because the new dungeons were too hard for LFD groups, so this content was nerfed. Same thing happened in 4.1.

 

The pro LFD people want a fact as to why LFD is not a good idea It will lead to nerfing content because it can only work to the poorest person in the group. And that is a fact.

 

 

Ferroz will ignore everything you said. It doesn't fit his world view.

[DarthKhaos]

The zone window or whatever its called has the ability to search for multiple things at once. You can put in LFG and see every person LFG in the entire faction.

 

You can put in 41 Guardian and see every 41 Guardian in the entire faction.

 

Last night I searched every LFG and there maybe 10 total on the list. 1 on Tython, 1 on Coruscant, 3 on Fleet and a few each from Taris +.

 

If more people flagged the LFG button and actually put what they wanted to do it seems it would work.

 

If anyone knows to actually search it effectively anyway.

 

Or is the big fuss just about getting auto ported into an instance?

I actually made a guide for the tool. Was hoping to get it sticky on the new user forums.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=224095

[ferroz]

Ferroz will ignore everything you said. It doesn't fit his world view.

No, I'll read it and point out the factual errors in it.

 

 

 

I wish people would stop saying there is a choice in using LFD, because in the end there won't be.

 

From the Wow experience:-

 

FACT - LFD server wide didn't work, the queues were too long.

LFD was cross server when it was released.

 

there was an lfg tool before that, but not an lfd tool.

 

"too long" is a purely subjective evaluation.

 

FACT - An incentive was introduced to entice people to take part (badges, or in SWTOR's case free commendations) - this still didn't work to lower queue times.

 

FACT - LFD went cross server however queue times stubbingly remained 20 minutes plus - often over 1 hour in quiet times.

Your sequence of events here is wrong. When lfd went live, it was cross server, and gave badges for doing the daily heroic.

 

queue times for a dps at this point were ~25-40 minutes, even off peak. Supposedly they were higher on the EU servers, but not in my battlegroup.

 

so, these facts are anything but.

 

FACT - WoW had to introduce role based incentives to get more tanks/healers.

Yup, and they worked really well, at least from my perspective. I remember logging on and queueing at 7am on a weekday (I was making a point for the rift forums) and the queue times were consistently under 15 minutes. Several times I got queue pops in 3-5 minutes.

 

When I unsubbed WoW queues were around 10 minutes at peak times.

When I was playing back in November/December, it was 5-8 minutes peak, and only 10-12 minutes way off peak. Like 7am on a weekday. This was for the new dungeons, I didn't run many of the older ones at that point. YMMV

 

edit: for clarity

 

Whilst I have some 'community' issues my experience is that offering incentives is what made WoW LFD the problems as it ensured that those that didn't want to run the dungeon had to for their daily valor points - valor points buy raid gear in WoW - so even those that didn't want to use the tool had to to stay competitive if they raided.

You had to use the tool to get your daily badges, but you could form your group however you wanted.

 

Lots of people still form groups via chat.

 

The pro LFD people want a fact as to why LFD is not a good idea It will lead to nerfing content because it can only work on the poorest person in the group. And that is a fact.

That's just speculation; maybe they'll change the content and maybe they won't.

 

They'll certainly identify problems in the content faster, as they get more bug reports and more problem cases. Whether they'll return the content as a result of that is unknowable.

Edited February 13, 2012 by ferroz

[Heretiq]

I find it really funny how the Anti-LFD-People are trying to come up with some sort of compromise that is supposed "satisfy everyone".

 

What you fail to realize is that we don't want a compromise. Well - at least I don't want it. I'm not sitting at a negotiating table here. I will not accept anything but the Cross-Server-LFG tool. Simple as that. Because everything else would be a setback. Like going from buying butter from the supermarket to having to make the butter yourself. And I will NOT accept that. The cat is out of the bag and buying the butter is the way to do it now.

 

I will NOT accept the merging of servers. It won't fix the problems for those who are leveling or those who have a weird work schedule.

 

I will NOT accept a global LFG channel. We can already have that right now by creating it ourselves. It also won't fix the problems for those who are leveling or those who have a weird work schedule.

 

I will NOT accept a Server-Only-LFG tool. Mainly because I want to have access to a bigger pool of players.

 

And don't even give me that "why are you playing an a MMO if you don't want to socialize / don't have the time"-bulls*it. I'll play the game however gosh darn way I please. I'm social enough in real life. I don't necessarily need it in my video game.

 

So it comes down to whether it's going to be your way (channel-spamming, whispering, /who) or my way (fully automated Cross-Server-LFG tool). And trust me on this one - it's going to be my way in the end. Simply because I'm the majority and because the majority is where the money is at.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Heretiq

[PjPablo]

Exactly how many people are being stopped from doing the group content?

 

So far all I see is you because you refuse to be social. See your first comment.

 

If you are on a low pop server a lfg tool wont help. Your server is still low pop. But you refuse to move to a higher pop and rather just sit and wallow.

 

Your view of grouping is treating other like companions, you have no wish to be social with these people. Your only goal is do the content that you want to do. You community is you because you choose it.

 

And you never sis explain how a cross server LFG tool would help people on your server get together. Seems to me that a cross server would just allow you to do what you want.

 

Have you thought that you may be part of the reason why there is no community on your server as you say? Because you are only interested in your experience?

 

Thats what I am taking away from this.

 

Who said I am not social. In WOW the first thing I would do in a random group is drop a feast/table/etc and say "Hi, everyone. You all been here before?" If not I would make sure to explain to them how the fights went. You can still be social in a random group.

 

X-Server absolutely helps those on low pop servers gets groups. Not sure how you don't see that. It also helps more players see more content. that is fact based on the numbers from WOW. Why is that a bad thing again?

 

Seems I have to keep repeating this. Functionality doesn't create community. People do. Regardless of what functionality is in game it is on people to create community. LFG tools neither help or hinder that.

 

For those against x-server LFG tool you seriously need to get a better argument against and/or better spokespeople.

[corbanite]

I wish people would stop saying there is a choice in using LFD, because in the end there won't be.

 

From the Wow experience:-

 

FACT - LFD server wide didn't work, the queues were too long.

 

FACT - An incentive was introduced to entice people to take part (badges, or in SWTOR's case free commendations) - this still didn't work to lower queue times.

 

FACT - LFD went cross server however queue times stubbingly remained 20 minutes plus - often over 1 hour in quiet times.

 

FACT - WoW had to introduce role based incentives to get more tanks/healers.

 

When I unsubbed WoW queues were around 10 minutes at peak times.

 

Whilst I have some 'community' issues my experience is that offering incentives is what made WoW LFD the problems as it ensured that those that didn't want to run the dungeon had to for their daily valor points - valor points buy raid gear in WoW - so even those that didn't want to use the tool had to to stay competitive if they raided.

 

From WotLK - when LFD was introduce - until the next expansion the spamming LFD disappeared. It did return for a while after the next expansion because the new dungeons were too hard for LFD groups, so this content was nerfed. Same thing happened in 4.1.

 

The pro LFD people want a fact as to why LFD is not a good idea It will lead to nerfing content because it can only work to the poorest person in the group. And that is a fact.

 

And this is why there is no choice but to use the LFD in WOW. You have top

use it to get your badges for your raid gear. If you don't use it you fall behind.

 

Because the QQ that will continue to happen starts demanding incentives for people to pug.

Edited February 13, 2012 by corbanite

[DarthKhaos]

I find it really funny how the Anti-LFD-People are trying to come up with some sort of compromise that is supposed "satisfy everyone".

 

What you fail to realize is that we don't want a compromise. Well - at least I don't want it.

There you have it folks. The true colors finally comes out. I wonder why you even bother to take part in a discussion. I truly wish BioWare would just copy your entire account into /dev/null

Sad to say that wouldn't happen.

[ferroz]

And this is why there is no choice but to use the LFD in WOW. You have top use it to get your badges for your raid gear. If you don't use it you fall behind.

No, you can get geared just fine without those badges.

 

People choose to do use the tool because it's more convenient and it offers perks.

 

Even if you choose to use the tool, you're not forced to use it as a matchmaker. Most of my guildies don't, for example.

Edited February 13, 2012 by ferroz

[gtmach]

 

The pro LFD people want a fact as to why LFD is not a good idea It will lead to nerfing content because it can only work to the poorest person in the group. And that is a fact.

 

I don't think content nerfing was an LFD result. I think content nerfing happened out of natural progression. WoW was always about nerfing old content once new content came out. And if you played the latest WoW had to offer, it wasn't easy.

 

It got easier overtime once everyone got better gear on average.

 

My honest observation after years of WoW was that when new content came out, people in the LFD tool were generally cooperative because everyone was a noob at that point.

 

However, once more and more people got geared and figured out the strategies, the new content became more routine and soon the impatience sprung up.

[Heretiq]

There you have it folks. The true colors finally comes out. I wonder why you even bother to take part in a discussion. I truly wish BioWare would just copy your entire account into /dev/null

Sad to say that wouldn't happen.

 

I like how you only quoted that specific part. I wonder why YOU even bother to take part in a discussion if you're just going to go ahead and ignore the bigger half of my post (where I stated why I won't be satisfied with said compromises).

Edited February 13, 2012 by Heretiq

[ferroz]

There you have it folks. The true colors finally comes out. I wonder why you even bother to take part in a discussion. I truly wish BioWare would just copy your entire account into /dev/null

Sad to say that wouldn't happen.

I'm not sure what your point is... you quote someone who's saying that they aren't interested in your faux compromises that aren't actually compromises. What exactly is the problem with that?

[ferroz]

I don't think content nerfing was an LFD result. I think content nerfing happened out of natural progression. WoW was always about nerfing old content once new content came out.

The content nerf was built into the ICC raid; they did it to the previous expansion raid content as well.

 

After a while, Blizzard nerfs stuff so that the LCD can get in and stomp around. They've come to the conclusion (and I agree) that having portions of the game that are forever only for the people who are "good enough" is a bad idea. That's why they've added an easy version of the raids with the lfr system.

[mothear]

Perhaps my facts 1 and 3 should have been 1, however incentives were not part of the initial patch from my recollection, I stand to be corrected though.

 

My timings are from an EU Server standpoint.

 

 

That's just speculation; maybe they'll change the content and maybe they won't.

 

They'll certainly identify problems in the content faster, as they get more bug reports and more problem cases. Whether they'll return the content as a result of that is unknowable.

 

 

Actually it is a fact as far as WoW is confirmed. In the UK we have what is called the law of precedent (I believe it's in the US too) therefore I can safely state as a fact that LFD leads to nerfs, That doesn't mean that it will do in SWTOR however as the saying goes if it looks like a pear and it tastes like a pear, it probably is one.

 

I'm not against server LFD I just don't think it will work particularly well and as flashpoints will be my end game because I don't want to raid, I don't see why people should spoil my end game when there are alternatives.

[Taitano]

There you have it folks. The true colors finally comes out. I wonder why you even bother to take part in a discussion. I truly wish BioWare would just copy your entire account into /dev/null

Sad to say that wouldn't happen.

 

Don't know what your point was. Your fake *** compromise is actually no compromise. Should have quoted the most relevant part.

 

And trust me on this one - it's going to be my way in the end. Simply because I'm the majority and because the majority is where the money is at.

[PjPablo]

Perhaps my facts 1 and 3 should have been 1, however incentives were not part of the initial patch from my recollection, I stand to be corrected though.

 

My timings are from an EU Server standpoint.

 

 

 

 

Actually it is a fact as far as WoW is confirmed. In the UK we have what is called the law of precedent (I believe it's in the US too) therefore I can safely state as a fact that LFD leads to nerfs, That doesn't mean that it will do in SWTOR however as the saying goes if it looks like a pear and it tastes like a pear, it probably is one.

 

I'm not against server LFD I just don't think it will work particularly well and as flashpoints will be my end game because I don't want to raid, I don't see why people should spoil my end game when there are alternatives.

 

LFD queue do not lead to content nerfs. Completely false. Wow started nerfing content before they even introduced x-server LFD. What logically would be the reason that LFG queues would lead to content nerfs. Keep in mind this is already the easiest, most casual, most accessible MMO on the market.

[mothear]

Simply because I'm the majority and because the majority is where the money is at.

 

Actually the majority where the money is, i.e. the 10m, is playing WoW.

 

SWTOR needs to be different or people will probably slowly dribble back to WoW, or where ever they came from, as they have a more polished product - given their 7 year head start.

[ferroz]

Perhaps my facts 1 and 3 should have been 1, however incentives were not part of the initial patch from my recollection, I stand to be corrected though.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_3.3.0

 

you got emblems of frost from your the daily heroic random and emblems of triumph for your daily normal random. Any additional heroic randoms gave triumph badges, and any additional normal randoms gave gold. Pre wotlk dungeons gave gold.

 

 

• The Heroic Wrath of the Lich King Daily Random Dungeon option will award two [Emblems of Frost] no more than once a day.
  
• The normal Wrath of the Lich King Daily Random Dungeon option will award two [Emblems of Triumph] no more than once a day.
  
• Continuing to complete Wrath of the Lich King Heroic instances using the Daily Random Dungeon option will award players two additional Emblems of Triumph each time.
  
• Daily Heroic and normal dungeon quests have been removed. These quests have been replaced with weekly raid quests (see the "Quests" section for details).
  
• Level-appropriate rewards will be offered to players who choose the Random Dungeon option for pre-Wrath of the Lich King dungeons.
  
• Players can be placed in a group for a random dungeon no more than once every 15 minutes.
  
• Random Dungeon rewards will be placed in each player's inventory automatically upon completion of the dungeon (final boss killed). A pop-up notification will display any rewards earned through the Dungeon Finder.
  

 

 

 

My timings are from an EU Server standpoint.

Yeah, you guys had a worse time for queues than we did, pretty much across the board.

 

Actually it is a fact as far as WoW is confirmed. In the UK we have what is called the law of precedent (I believe it's in the US too) therefore I can safely state as a fact that LFD leads to nerfs, That doesn't mean that it will do in SWTOR however as the saying goes if it looks like a pear and it tastes like a pear, it probably is one.

In both the US, and in Europe, it's called post hoc ergo propter hoc, and it's logical fallacy.

[Heretiq]

Actually the majority where the money is, i.e. the 10m, is playing WoW.

 

SWTOR needs to be different or people will probably slowly dribble back to WoW, or where ever they came from, as they have a more polished product - given their 7 year head start.

 

... So what exactly was your point again?

 

If I wanted to play WoW (which I don't) I'd just play WoW. Simple as that. There are several aspects that SWTOR just does better (Leveling, Crafting, Companions, Story-telling ... etc) and therefore I prefer to play SWTOR.

 

I just think that a Cross-Server-LFG tool (among other features like dual specialization, a fully customizable UI, addons, macros and a barber shop ... etc) would make this already good game even better.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Heretiq

[Percy]

I am sick to death of sitting on the fleet forever and spamming chat. Please bring in a LFD tool so i can get back out into the world.

[Ituhata]

I am sick to death of sitting on the fleet forever and spamming chat. Please bring in a LFD tool so i can get back out into the world.

 

The irony

[ferroz]

The irony

it's one of the reasons I looked forward to the lfd tool in wow... I got to get out and do stuff and not just sit in dalaran looking for my daily heroic..

[Heretiq]

The irony

 

Where exactly is the irony? I can't seem to find it.

 

He wants to queue up for a flashpoint and do whatever he wishes to do while he waits for the invite to pop up. Fire and forget. What's wrong with that?

Edited February 13, 2012 by Heretiq

[Ituhata]

Where exactly is the irony? I can't seem to find it.

 

He wants to queue up for a flashpoint and do whatever he wishes while he waits for the invite to pop up. Fire and forget. What's wrong with that?

 

No, he's going to get out into the world by standing in one place and teleporting instantly to a flashpoint and repeating. That's exactly what's going to happen. That's why there are so many people in org and sw, they're all just standing there waiting for queues to pop.