Expertise System

[JackNader]

The expertise system does more to break PVP then any other mechanic. In fact I would even go as far as to say that a lot of the "class" imbalances that people commonly point out are due to its implementation.

 

here is why..

 

Player A has the exact same gear as player B with the exception that player A also has 10% expertise. Both player A and player B have 1000 hitpoints and each have a 100 hitpoint base attack.

 

X% Expertise adds +X% damage + X% damage reduction and +X% healing

 

 

Player A (110 damage every hit will kill player B in exactly 9 hits.)

Player B will take 11.11 hits to kill player A

 

This is roughly a 23.46% difference in spread. That is HUGE!

 

Adding to the problem is the fact that newly level 50's are already at a significant disadvantage in terms of gear level. It is in effect a 1 - 2 punch and it is totally unnecessary.

 

Off on a tangent but it is related---

 

We have all seen the "immortal" healers in pvp. The interesting thing is that they do not exist in lvl 10 - 49 games. These immortal healers only tend to show up in level 50 warzones. The expertise system contributes significantly to this problem with its 23.46% healing spread.

 

No healer should be able to "out heal" a DPS class. It should be a 1 : 1 ratio. This includes taunts, etc! Now i have read many comments saying that "heaven forbid a healer should be good at healing" but quite frankly if you allow healers to "out heal" DPS classes they BREAK WARZONES! I personally have played against a team with 4 republic healers. Our entire team attacked them for a good 10 minutes and NOBODY ON THEIR SIDE DIED!

 

When you have guard up and taunts, their damage is already reduced to 35% and that is BEFORE you add their natural damage reduction and then finally expertise. This means that in this kind of environment individual healers are doing between 5 and 10 times the healing damage as DPS classes and people wonder why they are seeing immortal healers everywhere.

 

Personally I would really love to see the entire expertise system on gear scrapped. I don't mind it still being applied through "stims" or the red expertise buffs found throughout warzones, simply because they are temporary! Having permanent expertise is rubbish.

 

To sum up-

 

If bioware scraps the system it will

-Go a long way in balancing lvl 50 warzones.

-alleviate somewhat the ridiculous problem of immortal healers

-Reduce client side lag because fights will be over much quicker

-Reduce player frustration

[DarthMikesta]

Your seem to be completely ignoring things like CC, interrupts, pushbacks, etc.

 

I kind of agree a little bit, healers are slightly over the top a little, especially when combined with gaurd, but you can interrupt/cc healers

 

As far as expertise... its there to stop full time raiders from being able to go into warzones and 2 shot everyone

[AdamJK]

In your scenario, is Player B restricted from getting PVP gear in some way?

[Kasukua]

in a 1 on 1 fight you can maybe a couple of interrupts, before it doesnt really matter. I can jolt the first heal, but then its on CD, he has another heal up. then I can maybe low slash the second. Again, he has another heal up, by then its shield time again...

[xanix]

1-49 its about skill , 50 its about gear

[Anthiel]

1-49 its about skill , 50 its about gear

 

yea and the gear is there to keep casuals on even footing with hard core raiders its the whole reason it was thought up in the first place to let pvpers advance through pvp skill not tier raids.

[Levianer]

And what do you prupose should be done to differ equipment worn by pvp and pve players?

[JackNader]

In your scenario, is Player B restricted from getting PVP gear in some way?

 

Yes!, God yes! new level 50's if they are smart will have lvl 49 purple gear and will have saved up 6 champion bags. This means they will score at best a couple of champion items and will end up with around 1.5 -2.5% expertise tops. Then it is a long grind to acquire better gear. Players who have been pvping much longer will have far better gear and more expertise. I am absolutely cool with players that put in the time being rewarded but not a TWOFOLD reward. Gear with better stats is enough. Adding better stats "AND" expertise is very silly.

[Levianer]

Twofold rewards? Wth are you talking about, people in end game pve equipment have no problem owning ther players in endgame pvp equipment as far as i've noticed?

[Grubfist]

Not sure how Expertise changes anything. I do just fine on fresh 50 characters. The difference is barely noticable.

[JackNader]

Why can't hardcore raiders and hardcore PvPers have access to the same gear? All that needs to be done is to ensure that it takes approximately the same amount of time to acquire for raiding as it does for PVP and then there is no issue. I don't understand why the gear needs to be separate!

[Terrorshard]

And what do you prupose should be done to differ equipment worn by pvp and pve players?

 

 

Make T1 pve gear and t1 pvp gear almost the same? same with t2 pve and pvp.

[CorbinCrawford]

In your scenario, is Player B restricted from getting PVP gear in some way?

 

He isn't saying Player B is restricted, he didn't say that at all, nor imply that. Posts like these need to read for what they are saying, any only what it is saying. In this case, it is just highlighting the vast difference between A and B. I appreciate your point, but the OP was simply putting a finite value on the largest gap in the PVP playing field. It's the point of reference new players at 50 have to contend with.

 

Just something for everyone to consider. I hit 50 on my character about 2 hours ago. I am player B. It is very discouraging to say the least with the sheer force the enemy hits for, and the sheer lack of force my own attacks do. But I was forewarned by the forums and had 6 bags waiting (1 unique bag +1000 of each commendation).

 

I was batting an idea around with folks in Ilum regarding expertise. If expertise has to stay, to separate PVE Endgame with PVP, why is there is no starter pvp gear to bridge the gap for new 50's. Not speaking welfare epics, but baseline blues with expertise enough to survive, but blue-level stats. That way, people starting pvp can actually survive long enough with their baseline expertise, but they certainly cannot perform overall as well as people in Centurian and up (and Centurian is not welfare, starting from scracth it's still relatively painful to get hold on for fresh 50's with the current steamrolling in WZ's and Ilum).

 

Personally I believe baseline blue PVP gear is the answer. If Centurian and up gives like 10% bonus and reduction, starter sets should give 5%, cost a fortune in credits, or should be from the PVP armor vendor like lv 20 and lv 40. That way people will be able to get this gear and actually participate, but it'll still be a long road for the Centurian and up gear - the only difference is they don't get steamrolled for 90% of that journey.

 

I view PVP as the most competative and skillful environment in any game, but in this game is actually PVE - Player Versus Expertise...

[Eltohan]

1-49 its about skill , 50 its about gear

10-49 is about who has the most out of his skills already, the most points in his talent tree, the gear most up to date (with bolster it scales ALOT) and THEN some skill (depends on the class).

 

 

At LV50, there is no more "I have 5 more skills including some CC etc".

 

yeah it's about who has the best gear, it's a mmo in the end. But there is more skill involved as everyone has all its skills, and no more gear scaling, everyone can go to the GTN and buy some epix /crafts, I mean, is it really that hard to get some up-to-date mods into your orange gear ? Sure if your an OP CC class you didn't need as it was your tank pet that took it all.

 

At lv50, warzones are no more a kindergarten.

 

[Jalal]

Did anyone notice that thread where someone did the math?

 

A fresh 50 would have to do twice as much damage to a champ geared 50. A big difference considering they also do 10% more damage on top of that.

[WittyRaevyn]

Make the level 20, 40, and Centurion gear have expertise on them and slowly increase the amount of expertise per tier.

[CupieFoxtail]

Hey cool, no expertise

I can get free lolpvp gear and automatically win at PvE

Or maybe I can bring my rakata gear in PvP and get a bunch of free kill on people who PvP exclusively

Either way, THE PVP AND PVE PLAYER WILL BE KING

[Razot]

Its a crap system for crap players for a crap game, and it ended up in this game.

 

Bioware hes decided to follow the path of WoW without fully understanding why Blizzard did it in the first place.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP_WhG4fe-w&feature=related

 

I talked to PVP and PVP wants skill!

[CupieFoxtail]

You can get full PvP gear in less than a week, with minor effort put in

This is a non-issue

Edited February 11, 2012 by CupieFoxtail

[JackNader]

You can get full PvP gear in less than a week, with minor effort put in

This is a non-issue

 

Your missing the point! It's not just about the lack of access to gear which every newly 50 has to suffer through but also the effect it has on various other mechanics. Ie. Healing, CC, Melee vs Ranged, etc! It's a big deal!

 

Seriously, if the ONLY reason it made it into the game was to prevent Raiders going into warzones and rolling PVP players then they should have simply made end game raid gear the same as end game PVP gear. Right now its battlemasters rolling newly 50's anyway so whats the point?

[imazhero]

I agree, maybe some did not play this game called Warhammer online, but the reason this game so so well balanced and good for pvp was because there was no pvp stat. It was just other gear for pvp but no additional stat that reduced incoming and increased outgoing.

 

Stats like these are simply to keep the max players paying for the game, to get them something to work at after reaching max level.

 

Bioware does not care about balanced pvp (they may say this but really its about monthly subs)

 

The only way to make it balanced is to not have a pvp only stat, but they can not do this because pvpers will cry that their gear is just like pve, or they can just pve to get the gear for pvp

 

and pve players will complain that all the pvp players are sucking in their raids.

 

It really then becomes a niche game where only the really hardcore players play and Im sure Bioware, after spending over 150 million on the game dont want it to be that.

 

TLDR:

having a pvp stat breaks balance

You need extra content to keep players paying

you can't not have a pvp stat to avoid niche

bioware spent lots of money on this game so niche = bad

[onparole]

This is clearly another "everyones OP" thread. Not having much pvp gear doesn't make you absolutely worthless like it did in wow. Pvp gear so far merely gives you an edge, its not gambreaking nor is it really required.

 

If you are constantly getting killed maybe you need to consider what YOU are doing. Are you LoSing ranged attacks when possible, using cc/interrupts effectively, using defensive cd's before you drop to 5%, ranging your healers? Many people who have had similar complaints run around like rambo assuming they're awesome and get blown up alone... stick with your team.

 

Also, honestly, are you gonna play the "I should be able to blow up healers just because"... If healing was ever a 1v1 ratio with damage guess what... NOONE would be a healer. That would effectively make healing worthless. I play all 3 healer classes and yes if you let me cast in your face nonstop you should NEVER kill me. Although you might not understand this, we have cd's too and we prob use them better than you do.

 

So basically just stop being bad, bind your abilities, realize you're not rambo and keyboard turn your way out of the forums.

[Moosestick]

To op:

You really wrote out a long post when you could have said "whaaa I suck" and said the same thing? If you did have 6 bags waiting, you were full cent in 1 day, counting the weeklys, and the only thing holding you back is......you. Hit 50 on my alt 3 days ago. Full cent with 3 champ yesterday. Even before I bought cent, had no problems being competitive.

 

The OPs timeline.

Month ago: 50s are the reason I suck!

This week: its gear!

Month from now: ragequit, spamming the forums about a broken game, but knowing deep down that there was only one person responsible for the epic fail.

[JackNader]

I love the assumption that I suck because I make a logical observation grounded in math. Anyone who plays on Master Zhar PVP should know who I am. My nick is Sotera. Why don't you go check for yourself just how bad I suck before making silly statements.

 

I'll say it again, MATH DOESN'T LIE. If you have any kind of insight you can work all this out for yourself just by looking into the math. From there you can see the effect it has on all the other mechanics.

 

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/malbi

 

Lvl 50 warzone. I have entry level 49 purple gear with a champion focus and champion implant.

Edited February 11, 2012 by JackNader

[Shonuff]

Expertise is designed to keep PvE gear from over taking PvP. It's unfair that a person who raids dungeons 24/7 and gets the best gear in the game can beat someone who PvP's 24/7and not everyone likes PvE. Expertise solves that. It forces people who only PvE to actually play and grind in PvP and vice versa; people who only pvp will not do as well in hard/nightmare dungeon raids with pvp gear only. So your idea of not having Expertise would actually imbalance the game.

 

Just spend time grinding commendations and team up/group up with people who know how to play and if you do decent and your team wins you will get the gear to compete.