Request to Change Project and Throw, with suggestions and examples…

[Dyvim]

Im sorry.

 

I dont really see the point in discussing gamemechanics with you.

To talk to someone that doesent unterstand the simplest implimentation of mechanics and game balancing is useless. You are consistant. Consistantly stupid.

 

Yes, you do have a few questions about my "idea". But im not going to bother answering any of them after reading this: "where does the rocks come from?"...

 

My hat is off to you sir. You made me belive i was actually going to get something usefull out of this thread.

 

Im going away now. To a galaxy far far away. And so should you. To a galaxy far far way in the other direction.

 

Good, enjoy the trip.

 

You want to talk about an understanding of mechanics when you cant grasp that they try and even out dps, so both knight and consular get an aoe dps at lvl 3? And that aoe has slightly different additional effects based on the needs of the two classes, but STILL does AOE dps because they pay attention to dps parity??? You cant figure that one out? Even after I list the stats for you...geesh, talk about slow. And stupid.

 

You say you want to have an ability where a rock appears and hits someone. I ask the first, most logical question, where does the rock come from? And you cant handle it? Just like you cant handle the basic game mechanics question of figuring out who just hit you with the attack, because you have no way of knowing from the animation, and we dont have a combat log yet...you cant handle that one either. And you claim to know something about game mechanics...Now that IS funny.

 

Let me give you a clue, a good combat animation needs to do a few things...one of them is clearly show other players who is attacking them (unless its some kind of stealth attack). Yours, now what is the word, oh yeah, FAILED.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Dyvim

[Ohoni]

More damage than a blaster bolt? Just what are you basing that wild assertion on? If that was true storm troopers would have a slingshot..

 

You're being silly again. A slingshot capable of lobbing medicine ball sized rocks at Project speeds would be huge and unweildy, not to mention the ammo requirements. It would be completely preposterous as a sidearm. If, on the other hand, one could simply use the force to lift and accelerate such a rock, it would be a very efficient tool.

 

Really, they cant? Assassins can shoot 30 m lightning, just like a shadow can shoot 30m pebbles (with force potency). Assassins can also Surge off their sabers that is a chain lightning. Pretty advanced, just like sorcerers. Same type of attack, just a different delivery.

 

Both can only shoot 30m when their attacks are buffed up, when they are concentrating especially hard, basically. Sage/Sorcerer can do it effortlessly. Even then, a Shadow is still only capable of using Force Push to shove objects into people, while Sages have the fine control to impact things with the Force itself. Assassins are likewise unable to use the more powerful lightning attacks like Lightning Strike.

 

The Shadow is clearly designed to be a balance between Force TK abilities and melee combat skills. The Sage is clearly worthless at melee combat, and focuses all that talent into Force Tk options. If your assertion is that Shadows are meant to be as skilled at Force TK as a Sage, then that would make Sages completely pointless.

 

All a punch is is a transfer of your body weight into force and transfering that force. Pretty much the same basic principle as behind a force push...you generate force then transfer it to a target. Elementary. Again, explaining the obvious to you.

 

But like I said, it's the type of force being applied (lower case "f" force). A push is a slow but steady force, an acceleration that moves the target. An impact is a rapid blow, an "object" of some kind striking the target. Think of it as if you have to start with your hand in contact with the target. If you try to punch someone with your fist already touching their face, then you'll deal almost no damage, even if you're very strong, while if you try to shove someone while already touching them, you can move them a decent distance. Force TK is about the moving of objects. If you're moving a big rock, you can accelerate it to a significant speed, and because F=Ma, by the time the rock reaches the target it will apply a significant amount of force all at once. If, on the other hand, your projectile has negligible mass, like air does, then the impact force would also be negligible.

 

How did you get fireballs? lol Can you name one time when a sith causes a creeping dark mist to appear that leaches life? lol. No, of course not, but it is in this game, and it fits with the appropriate sith theme and lore. Just like a force energy attack fits with the lore.

 

Look, you can't keep switching between using the lore to say that Jedi cannot have TK attacks and then saying it's silly to use the lore to say that they can't have hadouken. The fact is, Force users in SW lore use TK attacks, both Jedi and Sith, and which uses them more often in the movies is a minor point, while neither use hadouken in the movies, so if you're using the movies as an argument for why Jedi should not use Project, then the argument would mean that neither should get hadouken. Basically, if you insist that the Consular options should be limited to moves Jedi use in the movies, then the class could not exist at all, as there are no direct strictly ranged attacks used by Jedi in the movies. There aren't any Jedi Consular in the movies either, really.

 

Really force push is not a damaging attack? Really? It is just a knockback? Pay attention, argument destroyed in 3,2,1...how about force wave? Its a knockback in its description...yet guess what, IT DOES DAMAGE.

 

Yes, but the impact force of Force Wave is fairly minimal, it would not work as a core direct damage ability like Project does.

[Ancaglon]

I support the request. Upvoted.

[Mindwormbified]

Too bad those changes will never happen. Ideas are cool but you have to be very naive if you think they will be implemented in the slightest.

[me_unknown]

Force push is not a striking attack. It does not damage the target except by them hitting something else. It's like the difference between an open palmed shove and a closed fisted punch. TK object throwing has far more in common with Force Push than Disturbance does, since Force Push is just throwing the target, rather than throwing something at the target.

 

that's totally wrong!

i can break your ribs with a push of my palm. if a push is powerfull enough to throw you through the air the impact of "the push" would actually break every single bone in your body even without you hitting anything.

[shadowfoxe]

Dont forget force breach animations for shadow uses this ALOT and it would be nice to not see the eggshell effect that is weak.

[Ohoni]

i can break your ribs with a push of my palm.

 

No you can't. No equivocation there, you just can't. Not unless my back is to a wall (in which case the combined forces of your hand and the wall would act to cause crushing damage), or if you wound up and delivered a palm strike, rather than just a push, which is basically just a punch with a different profile. If you just pushed against me, even if you pushed hard enough to knock me backwards, the force would happen over a large enough distance and duration that the physical damage from the push itself would be minimal. If you got picked up off the ground by, say, a high force wind, the wind wouldn't actually hurt, although the landing definitely could.

 

If a single impacting impulse was enough to launch you through the air, then yes, that would be enough to do some serious damage, but that's not how Jedi TK is typically depicted, a Force Push is more carrying the target through the air and then releasing them at a high velocity, like a baseball moving along the arm motion of a pitcher and then flying forward, rather than them smacking them once like the baseball off a bat. You can throw an egg like a baseball and send it flying at near a hundred miles per hour, but try hitting it with a bat.

[jedi-outcast]

This thread has self destructed.

[me_unknown]

No you can't. No equivocation there, you just can't..

 

i won't read the rest of your post as this alone is enough proving your ignorance. i would offer you to demonstrate this in real but i think this would not be very wellcome

 

oh and considering that the push is so strong that it throws a person several meters back through the air should make it already clear that its impact power is far superior to how i could hit you with my open hand.

 

it is force PUSH and not "force GRAB the guy and throw him away"! And it is also not a slow hand moving you from below and accelrating you slowly to a throw! it is an instant hard push which hits you so hard that you fly through the air.

it is so in the films and in this game too!

Edited February 1, 2012 by me_unknown

[kevshootit]

This thread has self destructed.

 

sadly, I agree

 

originally, this was a great idea based on aesthetics. The OPINION of many people that the consulars attack animations just aren't that great overall.

 

Some people do like them yes, but its within the rights of others to express to BW their opinion that they'd like them changed.

 

arguments about physics or the "force morality" of tossing rocks vs using force energy attacks are kinda pointless in my opinion.

 

we had a good thing going here, I say keep the discussion civil and simple

 

I think consular animations could be aesthetically cooler if they changed a few things around and added a few more cooler "force wave/push" sort of attacks

[Dyvim]

i won't read the rest of your post as this alone is enough proving your ignorance...!

 

He did that unequivocally a few pages back when he stated that earth firearm technology is more advanced than star wars firearm technology, and then more recently with his assertion that rocks are more damaging than blaster bolts.

 

But yes this has strayed. I apologize for that, but the problem is chunk a clunker lovers cant seem to figure out that they can have their own threads. They like to keep trolling in here. Meh, there are enough people that want a change to keep this going for a while. As I keep playing all the classes I continue to have ideas, and I'm sure other people will too.

 

Ive been thinking alot about force breach...they are trying to show a shatterpoint kind of effect. But it looks silly, and is no where near as impressive or fun as the Surge counterpart animation on the Sith side...hmm, now where have we seen that problem before...lol.

 

BTW here is a link to my thread in the suggestion box, so if you have something positive to contribute, please do.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=252715

[iDiggory]

You're being silly again. A slingshot capable of lobbing medicine ball sized rocks at Project speeds would be huge and unweildy, not to mention the ammo requirements. It would be completely preposterous as a sidearm. If, on the other hand, one could simply use the force to lift and accelerate such a rock, it would be a very efficient tool.

 

Not to mention that those exist. They are called catapults. And they are incredibly damaging. Like "smash all the bones in your chest and head" damaging.

 

Fact of the matter is:

 

1. We don't have a single movie example for force-based combat outside of object control. If you are going to use how rarely Jedi use the technique as your reason for rejecting project, you HAVE to apply the same argument to pure-force abilities. Fact of the matter is that they don't use them.

 

Force push and Disturbance are very different things. Turbulence and Telekinetic Wave even more so.

 

2. Some people love the debris-based animations. The fact that you don't like them means nothing, Dyvim. You're arguing aesthetics, and that has no answer. If you can't respond to someone saying "Actually, I like it" without being incredibly aggressive (like bringing it up in EVERY topic where people mention it, not just this one), then you aren't worth talking to. That isn't discussion. It isn't even debate. It's just sad.

 

3. No one disagrees with you about the boulder-out-of-a-spaceship thing. We do disagree with you on how important it is. And we understand how incredibly hard it would be to actually implement a change. It would be an ABSURD amount of work for the sake of ONE ability. That's just not worth it. Doesn't mean that we have to dismiss the ability all together. Because, like I said, some of us love the animations.

 

4. Pure physics supports the damaging potential of Project and TT. Whether or not you find them aesthetically pleasing is a different story, but the physics are sound. Let me put it this way--the density of water is 1 gram per cubic cm. If we assume a normal crust-quality rock (based on Earth's geology), then the kind of rocks we are pulling up are 2-3 tonnes per cubic meter. Even if we assume a .5x.5x.5 rock, you are talking about 250-375 kgs in each rock. It can travel about 30 m in .5 seconds or so, so we'll say it's going 60 m/s. You might be interested in noting that this is like 216 km/h.

 

65 mph is 105 km/h. Think about how incredible the force of that is. You would NOT live through that.

 

Air's density is next to nothing compared with the density of water, which is next to nothing compared to the density of a rock. To get the same kind of mass, so that you could inflict the same kind of damage as a rock, would involve forcing a ludicrous amount of air into a small space (and obviously hold it together until it HIT a target).

 

In many cases, the sum of the air in an entire room wouldn't be enough. The only reasonable conclusion is that these attacks are, in the lore, meant to describe strong strikes that are ultimately meant to slam you into other surfaces. Because it just doesn't makes sense otherwise. And the lore has an absolute prohibition on light-sided attacks that directly damage lifeforms. This is in contrast to the dark side, who can cause the force to become intrinsically damaging.

 

That isn't a negotiable part of the lore. It's the basis for the entire Sith/Jedi dichotomy.

[TheNeox]

Not to mention that those exist. They are called catapults. And they are incredibly damaging. Like "smash all the bones in your chest and head" damaging.

 

Fact of the matter is:

 

1. We don't have a single movie example for force-based combat outside of object control. If you are going to use how rarely Jedi use the technique as your reason for rejecting project, you HAVE to apply the same argument to pure-force abilities. Fact of the matter is that they don't use them.

 

Force push and Disturbance are very different things. Turbulence and Telekinetic Wave even more so.

 

2. Some people love the debris-based animations. The fact that you don't like them means nothing, Dyvim. You're arguing aesthetics, and that has no answer. If you can't respond to someone saying "Actually, I like it" without being incredibly aggressive (like bringing it up in EVERY topic where people mention it, not just this one), then you aren't worth talking to. That isn't discussion. It isn't even debate. It's just sad.

 

3. No one disagrees with you about the boulder-out-of-a-spaceship thing. We do disagree with you on how important it is. And we understand how incredibly hard it would be to actually implement a change. It would be an ABSURD amount of work for the sake of ONE ability. That's just not worth it. Doesn't mean that we have to dismiss the ability all together. Because, like I said, some of us love the animations.

 

4. Pure physics supports the damaging potential of Project and TT. Whether or not you find them aesthetically pleasing is a different story, but the physics are sound. Let me put it this way--the density of water is 1 gram per cubic cm. If we assume a normal crust-quality rock (based on Earth's geology), then the kind of rocks we are pulling up are 2-3 tonnes per cubic meter. Even if we assume a .5x.5x.5 rock, you are talking about 250-375 kgs in each rock. It can travel about 30 m in .5 seconds or so, so we'll say it's going 60 m/s. You might be interested in noting that this is like 216 km/h.

 

65 mph is 105 km/h. Think about how incredible the force of that is. You would NOT live through that.

 

Air's density is next to nothing compared with the density of water, which is next to nothing compared to the density of a rock. To get the same kind of mass, so that you could inflict the same kind of damage as a rock, would involve forcing a ludicrous amount of air into a small space (and obviously hold it together until it HIT a target).

 

In many cases, the sum of the air in an entire room wouldn't be enough. The only reasonable conclusion is that these attacks are, in the lore, meant to describe strong strikes that are ultimately meant to slam you into other surfaces. Because it just doesn't makes sense otherwise. And the lore has an absolute prohibition on light-sided attacks that directly damage lifeforms. This is in contrast to the dark side, who can cause the force to become intrinsically damaging.

 

That isn't a negotiable part of the lore. It's the basis for the entire Sith/Jedi dichotomy.

 

You sir are a boss. You took this to a whole new level and i support every aspect of this reply.

 

As you mentioned. There is a huge diffrence in discussing the bugs with Project and the actuall animation. The bugs are facts, while the animation goes on idividual taste.

[Dyvim]

Not to mention that those exist. They are called catapults. And they are incredibly damaging. Like "smash all the bones in your chest and head" damaging.

 

Fact of the matter is:

 

1. We don't have a single movie example for force-based combat outside of object control. If you are going to use how rarely Jedi use the technique as your reason for rejecting project, you HAVE to apply the same argument to pure-force abilities. Fact of the matter is that they don't use them.

 

Force push and Disturbance are very different things. Turbulence and Telekinetic Wave even more so.

 

2. Some people love the debris-based animations. The fact that you don't like them means nothing, Dyvim. You're arguing aesthetics, and that has no answer. If you can't respond to someone saying "Actually, I like it" without being incredibly aggressive (like bringing it up in EVERY topic where people mention it, not just this one), then you aren't worth talking to. That isn't discussion. It isn't even debate. It's just sad.

 

3. No one disagrees with you about the boulder-out-of-a-spaceship thing. We do disagree with you on how important it is. And we understand how incredibly hard it would be to actually implement a change. It would be an ABSURD amount of work for the sake of ONE ability. That's just not worth it. Doesn't mean that we have to dismiss the ability all together. Because, like I said, some of us love the animations.

 

4. Pure physics supports the damaging potential of Project and TT. Whether or not you find them aesthetically pleasing is a different story, but the physics are sound. Let me put it this way--the density of water is 1 gram per cubic cm. If we assume a normal crust-quality rock (based on Earth's geology), then the kind of rocks we are pulling up are 2-3 tonnes per cubic meter. Even if we assume a .5x.5x.5 rock, you are talking about 250-375 kgs in each rock. It can travel about 30 m in .5 seconds or so, so we'll say it's going 60 m/s. You might be interested in noting that this is like 216 km/h.

 

65 mph is 105 km/h. Think about how incredible the force of that is. You would NOT live through that.

 

Air's density is next to nothing compared with the density of water, which is next to nothing compared to the density of a rock. To get the same kind of mass, so that you could inflict the same kind of damage as a rock, would involve forcing a ludicrous amount of air into a small space (and obviously hold it together until it HIT a target).

 

In many cases, the sum of the air in an entire room wouldn't be enough. The only reasonable conclusion is that these attacks are, in the lore, meant to describe strong strikes that are ultimately meant to slam you into other surfaces. Because it just doesn't makes sense otherwise. And the lore has an absolute prohibition on light-sided attacks that directly damage lifeforms. This is in contrast to the dark side, who can cause the force to become intrinsically damaging.

 

That isn't a negotiable part of the lore. It's the basis for the entire Sith/Jedi dichotomy.

 

Why arent catapults used today? Because there are better projectiles. You whole argument assumes physical projectiles versus energy projectiles. Star wars lore has physical/kinetic projectiles, but they have also advanced beyond that to energy projectiles. Force attacks use energy. That destroys your whole analysis based on the mass of a rock. Do you know what the physics of energy projectiles are? Like say force lightning? Light jedi force energy is still force energy. We have no clue what kind of damage, which is different from force, that a blaster bolt would do, and trying to apply earth physics to Force energy is completely, totally stupid.

 

We have plenty of movie examples of force based combat. We have lightning. We have choke. We have force push, used numerous times. Its NOT force pull. They are being HIT with force. Like when Yoda puts palpitane on his butt.

 

Now TRY to grasp this...its not just that jedi rarely use it, it is that SITH ALWAYS USE IT. IN THE MOVIES. EVERY SITH THROWS DEBRIS AT TARGETS. MAUL, VADER, DOOKU, PALPITANE all did it. Why is that so hard to grasp? That is why it has been classified as a darkside trait in just about every jedi video game that had the ability in it, going back FIFTEEN YEARS.

 

Some people cant stand them. Alot of people actually. The fact that you love them means nothing. The facts that SITH are the debris throwers, that the animations have problems in both concept and mechanics, and that they have turned jedi into junk throwers...those ARE FACTS, and they do mean something, and I imagine they will cause a re-evaluaton at some point, if the damage delay hasnt already caused some changes that are in the works.

 

Again, this is a thread to PROPOSE CHANGES.

 

Change is easy. Saber throw is in the game. Disturbance ani is in the game. Many of the other proposals have part or all of their pieces in the game. Why bother with project when at the end of the day you still have a jedi class throwing junk? Tie it into forcequake perhaps. But rocks and junk will always be a bad joke.

 

Im glad you got your rock math right. Rocks are boring. Go play a shaman. Modern projectiles, like a .223 round, travel at 3000 fps. Contrary to Ohoni's assertion, star wars tech >> than our tech. If you are generous, your rock travels at around 180 fps. Ooooh, exciting. You would be hit with how many bullets, in TODAYs tech, before one of your rocks hit a target? Assuming you could get the rock out past 90 ft? Its laughable. You can talk up rocks all you want. By the way, where did that rock come from? Is it a magic rock? Do magic rocks fly on their own? Do they have wings? How about their own leprechauns.

 

Force projectiles are ENERGY. Just like lightning is energy. ENERGY, get it? We dont have the physics for the Force. Get that? The tooltip for Disturbance: Fires a blast of telekinetic ENERGY at the target. Want to come up with the physics and formulas to qualify that damage? No? Your statements about "air" are meaningless. Its energy. What doesnt make sense about energy projectiles? Sith use the force to create energy from it in the form of lightning. Jedi do the same thing, in a different way. But its still ENERGY. Not air.

 

As far as the Sith, somehow you want to talk about them but refuse to acknowledge that the sith are the junk throwers, if ANYONE is going to throw junk in this game it should be them. But they dont so jedi do? And you can just ignore what we see in movie after movie? No.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Sireene
rude/uninviting - recently warned, no action

[iDiggory]

Because there are better projectiles.

 

Air is not one of them. If you want to make an argument for why Consulars should be carrying around a giant sack of bullets or a wagon of missiles, be my guest.

 

Oh, and, LOL.

 

MOST bullets go under 1.5k fps, which is something like 400 m/s. They also only weigh tens of grams.

 

We are talking about an incredibly heavy, dense object going about 1/6 the speed. But it is hundreds of thousands times more massive. The force of that impact is incredibly larger than a bullet.

 

Bullets kill by inflicting wounds that either irreparably damage vital organs, or causing your to bleed out (which, unlike what you see in movies, is a very long process).

 

Project, on the other hand, is the kind of attack that is going to completely obliterate (in one hit) bones and organs.

 

Of course, considering we are talking about a GAME, whether or not an attack will be lethal is really neither here nor there. I could hit someone with 5 projects, and they could live, but pistolwhip them once, and kill them outright.

 

The point is to have attacks that are believable as attacks. Both TT and Project definitely fulfill that requirement. Whether or not you think they are aesthetically pleasing is (once again) the only thing at work here. But it is certainly believable that they could sufficiently damage a human body so as to cause death.

Edited February 1, 2012 by iDiggory

[Dyvim]

Air is not one of them. If you want to make an argument for why Consulars should be carrying around a giant sack of bullets or a wagon of missiles, be my guest.

 

Consulars create energy projectiles. But you have the nerve to mention carrying around ammo, when the current craptastic animations you like expect us to believe Qyzen has a backpack full of pebbles for endless pebblestorms??? And magical junkyards are everywhere at our feet? The animations YOU LIKE that are the ones that require RIDICULOUS stipulations or suspensions of disbelief way beyond what is necessary for star wars lore.

 

tooltip for Disturbance: Fires a blast of telekinetic ENERGY at the target.

 

Notice it doesnt mention air. Sith use force energy and make lightning. Jedi also use force energy. Some have even used it to make green lightning. But using Force energy to create energy projectiles is well established.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Sireene
rude/uninviting - recently warned

[iDiggory]

tooltip for Disturbance: Fires a blast of telekinetic ENERGY at the target.

 

Basic physics.

 

In physics, energy is an indirectly observed quantity. It is often understood as the ability a physical system has to do work on other physical systems. Since work is defined as a force acting through a distance (a length of space), energy is always equivalent to the ability to exert pulls or pushes against the basic forces of nature, along a path of a certain length.

 

Maybe you weren't aware, but electricity has a physical composition. The thing that Sorcerors are shooting at their opponents isn't some kind of mystical force. It's an electrical discharge made up, most likely, by ionized air particles.

[Dyvim]

...

MOST bullets go under 1.5k fps, which is something like 400 m/s. They also only weigh tens of grams.

 

Handgun rounds are LOW VELOCITY rounds. They poke holes...they travel around 1000 fps. This would be you 9mm, .40 cal, etc. The magnums, like the .357 travel faster. But its still a LOW velocity round. THEY POKE HOLES. You bleed out from the holes and if one is in the quick incapacitation zone, this can disrupt the CNS and kill you instantly, or near instantly. Also you can bleed out very fast depending on which structure the round pokes a hole in...

 

Now most military rounds and most rifle rounds are HIGH VELOCITY rounds. 5.56mm or .223 rounds, the ammo used in an M-16, travel at approx 3000fps. Smaller, lighter bullet, but much greater velocity. HIGH velocity rounds create SECONDARY wound channels. They basically jellify the surrounding tissue through hydrostatic shockwaves. They are MUCH more damaging. MOST rounds are high velocity rounds in any kind of conflict. That is how bullets work.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Sireene
rude/uninviting

[TheNeox]

Stop talking about things you know nothing about. Which seems to be everything. Handgun rounds are LOW VELOCITY rounds. They poke holes...they travel around 1000 fps. This would be you 9mm, .40 cal, etc. The magnums, like the .357 travel faster. But its still a LOW velocity round. THEY POKE HOLES. You bleed out from the holes and if one is in the quick incapacitation zone, this can disrupt the CNS and kill you instantly, or near instantly. Also you can bleed out very fast depending on which structure the round pokes a hole in...

 

Now most military rounds and most rifle rounds are HIGH VELOCITY rounds. 5.56mm or .223 rounds, the ammo used in an M-16, travel at approx 3000fps. Smaller, lighter bullet, but much greater velocity. HIGH velocity rounds create SECONDARY wound channels. They basically jellify the surrounding tissue through hydrostatic shockwaves. They are MUCH more damaging. MOST rounds are high velocity rounds in any kind of conflict. That is how bullets work. Questions?

 

A Star Wars forum and this is what you get. A gun-nut talking about bullet velocity... /facepalm.

 

I bet Dyvim will go on a rampage after reading this, and verbaly attack me and/or my idea to great lenght. Thats what he does. He makes up false facts and looks down on any other idea except Saber Throw and Haduoken fireballs.

[Dyvim]

A Star Wars forum and this is what you get. A gun-nut talking about bullet velocity... /facepalm.

 

I bet Dyvim will go on a rampage after reading this, and verbaly attack me and/or my idea to great lenght. Thats what he does. He makes up false facts and looks down on any other idea except Saber Throw and Haduoken fireballs.

 

Actually Im a star wars nut, or fan(atic). lol.

 

Oh yeah, and the quote was "Where does the ROCK come from..." not that accuracy has ever overly concerned you...lol

Edited February 2, 2012 by Dyvim

[Dyvim]

Basic physics.

 

 

 

Maybe you weren't aware, but electricity has a physical composition. The thing that Sorcerors are shooting at their opponents isn't some kind of mystical force. It's an electrical discharge made up, most likely, by ionized air particles.

 

Well, first off, congratulatons on your wiki college degree. lol. I actually think someone posted that force lightning is NOT physical lightning or electricity in the common sense, but I had not heard that before...maybe you can wiki that too...lol. But as I recall, air, or ionized air acts as the the medium through which the energy flows, which wouldnt happen in the first place without strong electric fields affecting the air. But Im sure you can wiki more info...lol.

 

Also telekinetic energy isnt electrical energy. We do not know what Force telekinetic energy is...I do remember from my calculus based physics in college...a while ago...lol, that energy in physics has a very particular definition, versus the general or more common usage of the term.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Dyvim

[Ohoni]

oh and considering that the push is so strong that it throws a person several meters back through the air should make it already clear that its impact power is far superior to how i could hit you with my open hand.

 

Again, it all comes down to the impulse. If the force is enough to instantaneous;y launch a target several meters based on a single impact, then yes, the amount of damage it would do is considerable, but at the same time I could push you back several meters and not do any damage to you until you hit the ground, it all just depends on the duration of the force applied. Go back to the example of the egg and the baseball players, you can throw an egg at 90mph using a pitching motion and not break it (until it hits something) or you can hit it with a bat with enough force to launch it at 90mph, but would shatter it in the process because that force is delivered in a single instant rather than over the half-second acceleration of the throw.

 

You're totally right in that a "single impact" force push capable of launching an opponent several meters would deal massive damage, but by being correct at that smaller point you're actually arguing against your larger point, in that if Jedi were using single impact force pushes then it would be dealing massive damage, and a Force Push alone would instantly kill most enemies. It'd be like hitting them with a bus! Since they don't explode in a shower of blood when hit, we have to assume that Force Pushes in this game are not single impact, and are instead more like a pitching motion, a gentle lift and throw rather than a punch.

 

He did that unequivocally a few pages back when he stated that earth firearm technology is more advanced than star wars firearm technology, and then more recently with his assertion that rocks are more damaging than blaster bolts.

 

And yet both are true. They're obvious facts. Earth Firearms do significantly more damage than Blasters do. Have you ever seen a blaster bolt create a six inch exit wound? Can an Old Republic Sniper hit a target from a mile away? Blasters have certain advantages, they don't need ammo, for one thing, but while they are certainly "fancier" than an M-16, in purely practical terms they're clearly inferior.

 

Fact of the matter is:

 

1. We don't have a single movie example for force-based combat outside of object control. If you are going to use how rarely Jedi use the technique as your reason for rejecting project, you HAVE to apply the same argument to pure-force abilities. Fact of the matter is that they don't use them.

 

Force push and Disturbance are very different things. Turbulence and Telekinetic Wave even more so.

 

2. Some people love the debris-based animations. The fact that you don't like them means nothing, Dyvim. You're arguing aesthetics, and that has no answer. If you can't respond to someone saying "Actually, I like it" without being incredibly aggressive (like bringing it up in EVERY topic where people mention it, not just this one), then you aren't worth talking to. That isn't discussion. It isn't even debate. It's just sad.

 

3. No one disagrees with you about the boulder-out-of-a-spaceship thing. We do disagree with you on how important it is. And we understand how incredibly hard it would be to actually implement a change. It would be an ABSURD amount of work for the sake of ONE ability. That's just not worth it. Doesn't mean that we have to dismiss the ability all together. Because, like I said, some of us love the animations.

 

4. Pure physics supports the damaging potential of Project and TT. Whether or not you find them aesthetically pleasing is a different story, but the physics are sound. Let me put it this way--the density of water is 1 gram per cubic cm. If we assume a normal crust-quality rock (based on Earth's geology), then the kind of rocks we are pulling up are 2-3 tonnes per cubic meter. Even if we assume a .5x.5x.5 rock, you are talking about 250-375 kgs in each rock. It can travel about 30 m in .5 seconds or so, so we'll say it's going 60 m/s. You might be interested in noting that this is like 216 km/h.

 

65 mph is 105 km/h. Think about how incredible the force of that is. You would NOT live through that.

 

Air's density is next to nothing compared with the density of water, which is next to nothing compared to the density of a rock. To get the same kind of mass, so that you could inflict the same kind of damage as a rock, would involve forcing a ludicrous amount of air into a small space (and obviously hold it together until it HIT a target).

 

In many cases, the sum of the air in an entire room wouldn't be enough. The only reasonable conclusion is that these attacks are, in the lore, meant to describe strong strikes that are ultimately meant to slam you into other surfaces. Because it just doesn't makes sense otherwise. And the lore has an absolute prohibition on light-sided attacks that directly damage lifeforms. This is in contrast to the dark side, who can cause the force to become intrinsically damaging.

 

That isn't a negotiable part of the lore. It's the basis for the entire Sith/Jedi dichotomy.

 

/second.

 

Why arent catapults used today? Because there are better projectiles.

 

Yes, but the point is, catapults aren't used because we now have artillery cannons, but Jedi are man portable catapults. They're catapults that aren't the size of small buildings. If you want to argue that an artillery ion cannon can do more damage than Project, I'm right there with you, you'd need to lob a rock the size of a small house to do as much damage as an ion cannon, but that isn't the point, the point is that lobbing a Project-sized rock at an enemy can do more damage than what a handheld blaster is capable of, and WAY more than lobbing thin air at the target.

 

We have no clue what kind of damage, which is different from force, that a blaster bolt would do, and trying to apply earth physics to Force energy is completely, totally stupid.

 

We can extrapolate the type of damage it deals based upon observable effects. People get hit by blasters in the movies and other SW lore, from that we can determine how big an effect they have. Based on the sort of damage they do, a standard blaster bolt seems roughly equivalent to getting hit by a .22 round or so.

 

[We have force push, used numerous times. Its NOT force pull. They are being HIT with force. Like when Yoda puts palpitane on his butt.

 

Yes, but it is still a throw, it's still moving the target backwards, not harming him where he stands. No Jedi in the movies just "harms" a target using a direct force attack, instead they launch them around. The targets of a Force Push do no seem to feel any pain or suffer any damage from the launching effect, and if the FP was an impact event they would take VERY noticeable damage from them, like "blood splatter"damage, because the forces involved would be significant.

 

Now TRY to grasp this...its not just that jedi rarely use it, it is that SITH ALWAYS USE IT. IN THE MOVIES. EVERY SITH THROWS DEBRIS AT TARGETS. MAUL, VADER, DOOKU, PALPITANE all did it.

 

And how many Jedi use Hadouken in the movies? Again, if you want to insist that Jedi should not have Project because Sith use the ability in the movies, then that argument would have to extend to mean that NO abilities should be available to Consulars that would have comparable effects to the existing ones. By that standard, Consulars would have to become an entirely CC-based set with practically no direct damage options. If you accept that for balance reasons they had to design Consulars to have a direct damage option, Project-like TK attacks are the most reasonable option available.

 

Again, this is a thread to PROPOSE CHANGES. You dont want to do that, get out. You offer nothing.

 

The proposed change that we offer is that they don't change it. Why should we not voice our concern that we don't want what you want to happen?

 

Contrary to Ohoni's assertion, star wars tech >> than our tech.

 

Ok, ok, you keep saying this as if it were fact, what is your basis? I mean, obviously they have plenty of tech that is better than ours, like Repulsors and hyperdrives and things like that, no question, but that doesn't mean that their every technology is superior to ours. I mean, our computer monitors are certainly much better than theirs, they have both R and G, not just B, and have much better scan rates. So why do you believe that Star Wars small arms technology is better than 21st century Earth tech?

 

You would be hit with how many bullets, in TODAYs tech, before one of your rocks hit a target?

 

At 30m? One burst or so? The rock would still kill the target.

 

Force projectiles are ENERGY. Just like lightning is energy. ENERGY, get it?

 

Kinetic force and electrical energy have very different effects. Force lightning disrupts the target's neural paths and burns their flesh, kinetic force just crushes things. They are both types of energy, but they have completely different effects. Force does not have mass of it's own, you cannot "fire" raw kinetic energy at a target, you have to move things with the Force to generate a kinetic impact. If you aren't moving things like people or rocks then you'd have to be moving air to do it.

[me_unknown]

Again, it all comes down to the impulse. If the force is enough to instantaneous;y launch a target several meters based on a single impact, then yes, the amount of damage it would do is considerable, but at the same time I could push you back several meters and not do any damage to you until you hit the ground, it all just depends on the duration of the force applied.

this is correct.

but look at force push how the guardians have it and look at it when it was used in the movies: it has a bigger impulse then the best punch of a world champion ship boxer.

[Ohoni]

this is correct.

but look at force push how the guardians have it and look at it when it was used in the movies: it has a bigger impulse then the best punch of a world champion ship boxer.

 

But my point is, as depicted in the sources, Force Push is not, and cannot be an impact event. It is not slamming into the target with a "wad of Force" and launching them as a result of that impact. If that were the case it would be a VERY powerful impact, it would be hitting the target with a bus. They would not be getting up from that. Even a simple Force Push capable of launching a target several meters, if it were the result of a single instantaneous impact event, would be more impacting force than a human body could survive. It would be the strongest attack in the game by far, even at level 1 it would out-damage level 50 attacks.

 

I do not believe it is possible to "fire a wad of Force" at a target, or at least, if it is possible, it would be very difficult, and very un-Jedi-like because it would be one of the most direct applications of the Force in an offensive manner out there.

 

Rather, what is happening with a Force Push is an application of telekinesis. You aren't firing a wad of Force at the target and letting it hit like a cannonball, you are placing your grasp of the force, like an open palm, up against the target, and then shoving them forwards, pushing them off their feet not as if hitting them with a strong punch or kick, but as if using a judo throw or a sumo shove. The force is carried over a half-second or so of contact rather than a single instant, and the target suffers no direct damage from the application of the Force TK itself, but taking the fall, or resisting that force applied, can certainly put a strain on the body. Using Force Push is no different than using Project directly on the enemy, it's just a less controlled action, since you don't need to aim them.

 

There is no evidence whatsoever that Jedi are capable of impacting enemies directly with the Force as a hammer, rather than using it as a grasping tool that is capable of lifting, pulling, pushing, or crushing objects.

[me_unknown]

But my point is, as depicted in the sources, Force Push is not, and cannot be an impact event. It is not slamming into the target with a "wad of Force" and launching them as a result of that impact. If that were the case it would be a VERY powerful impact, it would be hitting the target with a bus. They would not be getting up from that.

 

your point is wrong! don't exaggerate. you can hit one hard enough to hurt one or you could hit one so hard that he dies. if we would look at it so black and white then getting hit with the light save would be always a one shot!

 

the point is that there is no argument against force push causing damage on its own!