SW:TOR Versus... SW:G

[EdratLightindark]

Looking at this http://www.mmodata.net/ it shows that most of the players stayed for 2 years and that was with all the bugs it had in the game that were never fixed.

 

From what I see, there were only 4 games with a more subs than SWG. I wouldnt call that a failure.

 

Look how the subs skyrocked to 300,000 and then stayed at about 300,000 for a year while no bugs were getting fixed. Then I think you can tell from that graph when the CU/NGE hit and after that it was all downhill.

 

The game had a base and had staying power but you cant expect to get more players by not fixing anything in the game for years.

 

If they made a SWGII it would have had over 1 million sold in its first month also if not more but the only difference is that those people would stay with the game and not jump ship to the new game when its released.

 

The last 2 years they fixed a lot of the bugs. They were also going through profession revamps during that time as well but it got delayed by the GCW2 (space update that was tied in with the GCW city invasions).

[Genkin]

Looking at this http://www.mmodata.net/ it shows that most of the players stayed for 2 years and that was with all the bugs it had in the game that were never fixed.

 

From what I see, there were only 4 games with a more subs than SWG. I wouldnt call that a failure.

 

Look how the subs skyrocked to 300,000 and then stayed at about 300,000 for a year while no bugs were getting fixed. Then I think you can tell from that graph when the CU/NGE hit and after that it was all downhill.

 

The game had a base and had staying power but you cant expect to get more players by not fixing anything in the game for years.

 

If they made a SWGII it would have had over 1 million sold in its first month also if not more but the only difference is that those people would stay with the game and not jump ship to the new game when its released.

Did you even look at those charts? There were 8 or more game with higher subs than SWG. My god Second Life has more subs than SWG ever dreamed of having. That should tell you something. Also the fact that they had over a million box sales with only arond 30% sub retention rate should clue you in. Edited February 10, 2012 by Genkin

[Mxconway]

First, the statement that the NGE was "A system that when it was being tested - the ENTIRE COMMUNITY screamed to kill the project!" is utter nonsense. Like the Spanish Inquisition, no one expected it. The "project" was sprung on the community without warning. That, even more than the NGE itself, was the biggest complaint about the implementation. No one knew it was coming. They just applied the update and never looked back. So the idea that they developed while the "ENTIRE COMMUNITY" protested is nonsense. The community knew nothing about it until it was implemented.

 

Second, the NGE was decidedly not the result of not meeting the expectations of the fan base or to keep up with WoW. The latter is a particularly popular historic rewrite of late due to the desire to blame everything bad in the MMO world on WoW. However, the NGE was the direct result of the absolute inability of the developers being able to balance the original profession system. The system was incredibly innovative and what most players loved about the game. However, being able to mix and match skills and stats from any profession (provided you had the prerequisite skills and the profession points to spend) introduced the ability to put together builds that, for instance, were impossible to hit. When you add into that the synergy with the crafting system allowing players to create equipment and buffs with stats that often surprised even the developers, and you have a system with inherent balance problems. There were just too many variables to keep track of. And all that was without even considering imbalances caused by the monumentally moronic decision to introduce an alpha class, the Jedi, which did not belong in the game to begin with due to the timeline.

 

This all led to the devs running from hole to hole in a vain attempt trying to plug leaks in the dike. Eventually, they recongized that they were better off just creating the traditional class based leveling system which would reduce the number of variables they had to balance.

 

Did wanting to meet the wishes of the fanbase play into the decision? Did pressure from WoW or other games factor into the decision? No doubt they did to some degree, but the change was inevitable because of the design of the original system.

 

Good post.

[Nautius]

Leveling in favor of SWTOR, endgame in favor of SWG.

 

I have detailed this in another post and I agree with the OP 100%.

 

There REALLY needs to be some kinds of sandbox component to this that allows the players to feel immersed in the SW environment rather than a story with some SW elements.

 

I enjoy TOR, but SWG is by far the single greatest MMO I have played.

 

Bioware, please incorporate SWG in your game!! Get away from WoW! It's MMO-lite on training wheels!

Edited February 10, 2012 by Nautius

[EdratLightindark]

I played both, was in SWG from the very start so I can comment on this.

 

What SWG did right, they did very very right...crafting. So much better than SWTOR, and I was really really hoping BW would pick up the mantle from SoE and put this style of crafting in the game. Such a shame they didn't, they had a free opportunity to have the best crafting in a themepark mmo and decided nah, lets just copy WoW's lame crafting. Still hold out hope BW will pick up on this and move to this kind of system.

 

Open worlds...big plus to SWG...there was never any limit to climbing steep inclines so you could go virtually anywhere on the map. Lots of exploration possibilities.

 

Player cities/faction bases...even WoW never had this...big plus, not only over SWTOR but WoW

 

Skill based level system - no levels. SWG was my first mmo, so I guess I took this for granted, but loved this system. Level treadmill gets old after awhile.

 

Space game - JTL was exactly what needs to happen in SWTOR. I still give BW the chance to do this, still very early in the game for SWTOR, and remember JTL didn't happen until a year after launch

 

Faction switching - one faction getting to big? No problem, you could switch back and forth and it wasn't hard to do at all. Just see your friendly neighborhood Smuggler.

 

 

Of course, what SWG did wrong, was very very wrong. To sum up, lack of content. The devs told the players the content was theirs to create, the players were like...:S

 

No content, then the holocron/Jedi system...once word came out that in order to unlock your Jedi slot, you had to grind random professions...made the game rather silly. In SWTOR you just make your Jedi..or Sith...and go from there...big plus to SWTOR.

 

Content, big big plus to SWTOR. Going to terminals to get missions to kill mob lairs then running out 10 clicks to the waypoint and hoping no one killed your mobs before you got there and then having a new waypoint generated that you would have to then run to...got old fast.

 

AFK/macros...entertainers in cantinas looping their moves in a macro then asking for tips. At least SWG had macros tho, but it sure ruined that class.

 

Limit of 1 char per server...terrible, terrible idea...big huge plus to SWTOR (not to mention a huge reason why so many left SWG to WoW). So you made a crafter, which then meant you sacrificed combat skills...and then you want to make a fighter char to balance it out? Too bad so sad, couldn't do it on the same server.

 

Time period - set between ANH and ESB...bad idea, for faction balance. Imps had all the power and Rebels were weaklings. Yeah, good balance. Oh, and lets give the Imps AT-ST pets, that will make things even better. Big plus to SWTOR. Should have set the game after ROTJ for better faction balancing.

 

Class balance....lessee, Creature Handlers with 4 rancors out at 1 time, Combat Medic/Riflemen with mind disease and poisons with 65 yrd range...good times, good times...makes Sorcs look like Druids in Vanilla WoW. Nod to SWTOR here.

 

 

tl;dr - SWG had some great stuff, and I miss it. However, there was a reason WoW cleaned its clock and it never recovered. SWTOR is much better, though if you prefer the sandbox type of mmo, SWG was for you.

 

To answer these. Im assuming you didnt play till the end either. They added a lot of content the last 3ys. On the entertainer issue they did away with the afk leveling of ents. It was no longer possible. You could have 2 characters per acct unless you unlocked the 3rd slot and obviously you could have 3 per acct. As I stated previously the classes were pretty balanced the last 2-3 yrs (they were going through the classes again right before the game got closed). But then again what game is totally balanced? Answer - NONE. Try though they might in any game it will never be 100% balanced.

Creature handling was done away with. Later they readded it and called it Beast Master. You could only have 1 pet out at a time and had to give up alot of your expertise for your prof to make it viable.

All in all SWG was a much better and balanced game by the time it shut down.

Edited for typos and an add....

Edited February 10, 2012 by EdratLightindark

[Aleryan]

I was killing rancors in my first hour of logging into the game.

 

 

Hahaha, no you weren't. Which version of SWG could you kill a rancor one hour after character creation? Not the original version, I can tell you that. Stop lying.

[Wepo]

A game with the best bits of SWG and SWTOR would be a very good MMORPG indeed.

 

A game with the worst bits of SWG and SWTOR doesn't bare thinking about.

 

Wise and concise point.

 

I would love to see them borrow a bit more from the good things of SWG.

 

Space, crafting, housing.

 

And a slightly reduced emphasis on instances and binding absolutely everything.

[Aleryan]

To answer these. Im assuming you didnt play till the end either. They added a lot of content the last 3ys. On the entertainer issue they did away with the afk leveling of ents. It was no longer possible. You could have 2 characters per acct unless you unlocked the 3rd slot and obviously you could have 3 per acct. As I stated previously the classes were pretty balanced the last 2-3 yrs (they were going through the classes again right before the game got closed). But then again what game is totally balanced? Answer - NONE. Try though they might in any game it will never be 100% balanced.

Creature handling was done away with. Later they readded it and called it Beast Master. You could only have 1 pet out at a time and had to give up alot of your expertise for your prof to make it viable.

All in all SWG was a much better and balanced game by the time it shut down.

Edited for typos and an add....

 

 

I am comparing the games I played. I stuck around until WoW, so that was right after JTL came out. Obviously the comparisons change if you're talking about SWG last year.

[Wekeltes]

Hi all,

 

As a reminder, we ask that the community use the General Discussion forum for general discussion relating to Star Wars™: The Old Republic™. While comparisons (and contrasts) to other games are allowed, we do ask that the primary focus of the conversation be about Star Wars™: The Old Republic™, or the thread risks closure for being off topic.

 

Thanks!

[Mxconway]

Hahaha, no you weren't. Which version of SWG could you kill a rancor one hour after character creation? Not the original version, I can tell you that. Stop lying.

 

Very possible after doctor buffs were added. Hardest part of enraged rancor missions was grouping up with enough people for the terminal to spawn the mission and making sure you weren't too close to someone else's spawn when they completed it.

[uidLucid]

Major difference between SW:G and SW:TOR.

 

SW:G interested me for about an hour.

 

Still loving SW:TOR on month two.

[Qouivandes]

I played SWG for the full 8-years, so I can say that I have a good idea of what SWG is, was, and what TOR could have been. But, I will say that comparing these games is like complaining your apple does not taste like an orange! ...

 

(lots of great words here)

 

...- and the ONLY reason I am playing this game is because it is STAR WARS!

 

 

To keep this post constructive I will leave it now....

 

you, sir, gain +1 to the fantastic meter.

 

I played SWG from 2003 through 2008 then off and on for till December 2010. I wouldnt change my experience(s) there at all. I truelly enjoyed my time there and the folks I met along the way (still looking for Tau'le and Mara Mai to game with again).

 

however, i am enjoying tOR greatly and wouldnt think to compare it to SWG as they are two different games. I would love my ship, though...

 

However, i have decided to pay homage to my SWG days by using a variation of my toons name.

 

EDIT: to finish that sentence....using a variation of my toons name for my legacy name.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Qouivandes

[EdratLightindark]

I am comparing the games I played. I stuck around until WoW, so that was right after JTL came out. Obviously the comparisons change if you're talking about SWG last year.

 

I see. Not knocking you at all. It was much better and different game the last 3-4 yrs. Unfortunately most had left for other games. Lots of content/bugs were added/fixed over that period. City invasions/battlegrounds were added. Factional control, over zones for all planets (including space), were added as well to give a "civil war" feeling. Atmospheric flight was added too. You could PVP (ship) in atmosphere and could even take out the player built turrets in the city invasions as well as shoot players on the ground. The players had a shoulder fired rocket launcher they could fire back at the ships with. If the game didnt get shutdown because of TOR it would have gotten even better.

[Aleryan]

I see. Not knocking you at all. It was much better and different game the last 3-4 yrs. Unfortunately most had left for other games. Lots of content/bugs were added/fixed over that period. City invasions/battlegrounds were added. Factional control, over zones for all planets (including space), were added as well to give a "civil war" feeling. Atmospheric flight was added too. You could PVP (ship) in atmosphere and could even take out the player built turrets in the city invasions as well as shoot players on the ground. The players had a shoulder fired rocket launcher they could fire back at the ships with. If the game didnt get shutdown because of TOR it would have gotten even better.

 

That sounds like a great game, I wish they thought of that instead of the NGE. Even so, I am being very fair to SWG, it did a lot right. It didn't need to be a WoW clone, neither does SWTOR for that matter.

[VanderII]

It's hard to compair these two games, they are different, SWG was an Sandbox and swtor is a theme park.

They are some different feauture, for example in SWG you could build an house but in game didn't find an history; on swtor can not build an house, but you find an epic history etc. etc.

SWG and swtor are games which touch different targets

[hizzler]

That sounds like a great game, I wish they thought of that instead of the NGE. Even so, I am being very fair to SWG, it did a lot right. It didn't need to be a WoW clone, neither does SWTOR for that matter.

 

Completley agree with this.. I didnt want SWG2 with SWTOR, I just wanted some of the better ideas incorporated into SWTOR. And I didnt want WoW in space either..

[Surakis]

We clearly have different definitions of end-game.

 

You have to, when you claim SWG had end-game content and SWTOR doesn't...

[djsmileey]

Yes and no. I guess you didnt play till the end. They added the Chronicle sysytem that allowed you to make your own quests. You could add rewards to em as well. Plus you got tokens (gold/silver) that you could use to purchase items at the Chronicle vendor.

 

"Epic"

 

Chronicle system =/= voice acted missions

[Kubernetic]

Sorry OP, this one's a fail.

 

Your clear biases over SWG vs SWTOR are displayed fairly clearly in the Planets, Timeline, and Other Features lists.

 

Without an honest assessment of the two properties, your conclusions can only be erroneous and faulty.

 

Good try though.

[Emeda]

Did you even look at those charts? There were 8 or more game with higher subs than SWG. My god Second Life has more subs than SWG ever dreamed of having. That should tell you something. Also the fact that they had over a million box sales with only arond 30% sub retention rate should clue you in.

 

Do you know how to read charts? Please list the 8 games that had more subs than SWG in its first year. There were only 4 and after 2 years there were 5.

 

Do you have a source for the 1 million box sales.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Emeda

[Ergecrs]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games

 

actually 1.5 million just in case you were curious. Oh I'm lazy and used the first link I came across on google. Plus I am sure that is for a total of 9 years. By the way incase you are curious SWTOR is at over 2 million sales according to the graph site with 1.7 mill subs resubbing after 1st month again according to graph site the pro swg guy posted lol.

[gtmach]

Well like it or not but if SWG was that good we'd never have SWTOR today.

 

I know people keep bringing up NGE to blame but SOE brought NGE out to revitalize subs in a way that competes with WoW.

 

Obviously they failed but if SWG was THAT amazing before, it'd still be the same way it was today.

[ChicksDigHarleys]

They wouldn't have come up with the CU and later the NGE if the pop was stable or growing. Early reviews panned SWG as a buggy, incomplete mess. Rose colored glasses are rose colored. Yes, I played at launch and still have my CE art book.

 

There were definitely elements/ideas TOR could have stolen, but I honestly didn't expect them to, since I've known since forever this was going to be a cookie cutter themepark.

 

Do you know how to read charts? Please list the 8 games that had more subs than SWG in its first year. There were only 4 and after 2 years there were 5.

 

Do you have a source for the 1 million box sales.

 

Yes, Lucas Arts own news release Aug 2005. Note, however, it took them over two years to sell a million copies and never had more than 300k subs, and that was only in the very beginning.

[Kourage]

SWG was hella boring to level and play. The PvP was horrible and filled with wall hugging line of site exploiters. Not only could you not shoot them, but they appeared in a place they were not within 100 yards of. If you needed more credits, you just leave your computer running overnight and hand sample. Or, buy a 2nd account and drop harvesters. You didn't have to earn anything. Any friend who had played for a year or more could easily buy you a full suit of armor loaded with 35s, which you could wear very early on. The whole game was based on playing house.

[SDTAXantos]

Looking at this http://www.mmodata.net/ it shows that most of the players stayed for 2 years and that was with all the bugs it had in the game that were never fixed.

 

From what I see, there were only 4 games with a more subs than SWG. I wouldnt call that a failure.

 

Look how the subs skyrocked to 300,000 and then stayed at about 300,000 for a year while no bugs were getting fixed. Then I think you can tell from that graph when the CU/NGE hit and after that it was all downhill.

 

The game had a base and had staying power but you cant expect to get more players by not fixing anything in the game for years.

 

If they made a SWGII it would have had over 1 million sold in its first month also if not more but the only difference is that those people would stay with the game and not jump ship to the new game when its released.

 

I lol'ed pretty hard at the abrupt dropoff of AoC and Warhammer.