Same gender relationships clarifications?

[Nozybidaj]

Thank you for confirming my interpretation of the threat, and by your tone, my characterization of the vastly disproportionate anger on this issue.

.

 

You're welcome, there's the door.

[Kioma]

<various threads, opinions and comments>

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, Invictos: Your entire issue with this is that you believe (some of) the people in this thread to be impatient, and talking about actions you view as being excessive, yes?

[Raiellyn]

Thank you for confirming my interpretation of the threat, and by your tone, my characterization of the vastly disproportionate anger on this issue.

 

Less than two months is not a long time by MMO standards. Unfortunately, that's always been the case. Your grievance isn't invalid, but it's no more valid than anyone else's -- the people who want answers about various technical issues, game mechanical issues, even aesthetic issues. The only difference is that businesses that fail to address any of the above issues in a given, arbitrary amount of time aren't painted as bigots.

 

Six. Six months. We have heard not a word beyond the statement made in September. Every follow-up has been "nothing new to say, we're still on it though!"

 

For contrast, say you pay for a meal. You're a patient person. They tell you that the meal is a bit complex, and that it will take an hour to prepare. That's fine. You can wait that long, right?

 

Now, imagine that same scenario; only this time, they tell you the meal is still being made. You have no idea how long it'll take. After waiting half an hour, you ask again. The waiter simply says that they are still preparing the meal, and offers no further insight into how long you might be waiting.

 

Suddenly, that hour seems pretty long. All I personally want. as I can't speak for everyone, is a ball-park estimate at how long we're looking at here. Will it be in patch 1.3? I'll gladly wait that long, and remain subscribed. First expansion? No big deal. I'll probably quit the game and wait, picking it back up once that drops.

 

Any longer? That is pure neglect. Not of the LGBT, but of my interests as a paying customer. If they shove me to the back of the line behind every other issue, I have no incentive to stay. Not bigots; just a business that no longer supports me.

[Kioma]

Now, imagine that same scenario; only this time, they tell you the meal is still being made. You have no idea how long it'll take. After waiting half an hour, you ask again. The waiter simply says that they are still preparing the meal, and offers no further insight into how long you might be waiting.

 

To add to this: you also don't know what meal you're getting. It could be a steak sandwich; it could be a bowl of raw weasels.

[Jedikuonji]

I would also add that just because the norm in mmos is for developers to be tight lipped and take months to respond to issues doesn't mean that we, the paying customers, have to find that acceptable. At what point is it ok to be annoyed about a lack of information? As was noted, it's been longer than just the two months the game has been out that we have gotten no updates.

[mrcaptainpants]

Thank you for confirming my interpretation of the threat, and by your tone, my characterization of the vastly disproportionate anger on this issue.

 

Less than two months is not a long time by MMO standards. Unfortunately, that's always been the case. Your grievance isn't invalid, but it's no more valid than anyone else's -- the people who want answers about various technical issues, game mechanical issues, even aesthetic issues. The only difference is that businesses that fail to address any of the above issues in a given, arbitrary amount of time aren't painted as bigots.

 

I understand what you're saying, but the reality is that proponents of other various technical issues, game mechanical issues, and aesthetic issues do not have a sense of cultural identity intertwined with them.

 

Because this issue does, it would be nice if the Community Team (and dang it, Ill say it, other players, too) could find it in themselves to be a bit more sensitive in their response to our numerous requests for dialogue.

 

I am NOT suggesting that our issues are more important, or that they should be a higher priority. I'm simply saying that because there *is* a minority group here with a cultural identity surrounding these issues, it would be nice if Bioware (and others) tried to show a little of the patience with us that everyone keeps saying we should be showing to Bioware.

[Invictos]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Invictos: Your entire issue with this is that you believe (some of) the people in this thread to be impatient, and talking about actions you view as being excessive, yes?

 

Excessive to the point of being counter-productive. Yes.

 

Now, imagine that same scenario; only this time, they tell you the meal is still being made. You have no idea how long it'll take. After waiting half an hour, you ask again. The waiter simply says that they are still preparing the meal, and offers no further insight into how long you might be waiting.

 

Suddenly, that hour seems pretty long. All I personally want. as I can't speak for everyone, is a ball-park estimate at how long we're looking at here. Will it be in patch 1.3? I'll gladly wait that long, and remain subscribed. First expansion? No big deal. I'll probably quit the game and wait, picking it back up once that drops.

 

Any longer? That is pure neglect. Not of the LGBT, but of my interests as a paying customer. If they shove me to the back of the line behind every other issue, I have no incentive to stay. Not bigots; just a business that no longer supports me.

 

(I pared Rai's quote a bit not because I wished to ignore it, but just to save space.)

 

Yours is an entirely reasonable position, and I do sympathize. I can't tell you how many times I've felt the same way about MMOs. Unfortunately that's the way it goes; online vitriol (in general) is just so bad that developers tend to be very quiet about prospective development.

 

Threatening to stop paying is different from threatening to apply political pressure, though. The latter tactic might ultimately prove to be more effective, but in the short term it's more likely to increase resistance to whatever it is you want. That's all I've been trying to say. On the one hand I'd like to see the thread succeed, and I see no reason why Bio couldn't toss a tidbit of info your way. On the other hand, I don't think the amount of time we're discussing here is, in an MMO context, all that long. It may have been six months since they first commented, but it's been less than two since the game launched. The intervening period was likely so full, so hectic, that it's hard to attribute their lack of further comment to anything more than oversight.

 

Hopefully Bio will comment at some point in the future and render all of this discussion moot. Hopefully whatever it is they say will prove sufficient.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Invictos

[Raiellyn]

I'd like to thank you for remaining reasonable and polite, Invic. Just remember that everyone on here is a person, and as people, we all have our moments of going too far. Sometimes it seems justified to us while to others it seems like jumping the shark, but that's the entire reason behind the thread; to come together as one voice, and temper eachother's zealous nature with reason.

 

I mean, I've been repeatedly over-the-line in this chain of threads, but everyone keeps reigning the discussion back in so I can calm down and go back to being reasonable. And sometimes, political over-kill is the only way to get things done. Too soon to say for sure on this, but perhaps contacting the HRC or whatever (I'm awful at acronyms...) is the right course of action down the line.

[Kioma]

Excessive to the point of being counter-productive. Yes.

 

<nods> Fair enough. I thought that was your point; just clarifying.

[Tamaranis]

Thank you for confirming my interpretation of the threat, and by your tone, my characterization of the vastly disproportionate anger on this issue.

 

Take a step back and look at the nature of the "threat."

 

The threat is that if EA/Bioware continues to fail to communicate and be unsupportive of LGBT issues, that people will attempt to create the impression they are noncommunicative and unsupportive of LGBT issues.

 

It's "Do X (or don't do X) and I'll tell people about it."

 

It's only a threat to someone who's doing something wrong.

[Invictos]

I'd like to thank you for remaining reasonable and polite, Invic. Just remember that everyone on here is a person, and as people, we all have our moments of going too far. Sometimes it seems justified to us while to others it seems like jumping the shark, but that's the entire reason behind the thread; to come together as one voice, and temper eachother's zealous nature with reason.

 

I mean, I've been repeatedly over-the-line in this chain of threads, but everyone keeps reigning the discussion back in so I can calm down and go back to being reasonable. And sometimes, political over-kill is the only way to get things done. Too soon to say for sure on this, but perhaps contacting the HRC or whatever (I'm awful at acronyms...) is the right course of action down the line.

 

Heh, you're right. God knows I'm not always reasonable, and to be fair I must admit that the whole HRC thing hit a nerve with me, because I own a business and I know how difficult it can be, and how important it is, to maintain a good reputation.

 

Anyway, and for what it's worth, I've added a request in support of your cause to the Q&A Thread for February 24th. Perhaps my request is a little tepid, but do be assured that I wish you luck.

[Nozybidaj]

<nods> Fair enough. I thought that was your point; just clarifying.

 

/shrug One person's view of "excessive" is another person's "required". If looking for external groups to show support isn't the next step what is? This thread obviously isn't going to get an answer. The community Q&A thread questions aren't going to get an answer. Facebook and twitter feedback aren't going to get an answer. Emails to BW contacts aren't getting an answer. What other avenues are available at this point? The only options are to seek further outside support or quit.

 

Other issues on the forum don't have this problem. Everyone knows they are working on PvP, even if a single small specific issue isn't directly addressed. Everyone knows they are working on new raids/instances. Everyone knows they are working on balance issues, UI issues, bugs, etc., etc. even if a small specific item or concern isn't being directly addressed. All anyone has to do is look to patch notes and forum posts to see that all of these issues are constantly being addressed and worked on.

 

This isn't the same. We have no idea if the missing same gender romance options and flirts are being worked on, if they are even being planned, if they are even in the realm of being thought about. There is nothing we can look at to see if this issue is even on anyone's radar. There is simply no information whatsoever one way or the other.

[Samy_Merchi]

I agree with Invictos that there's a difference between

 

* treating fictional characters inequally and

* treating real life employees inequally

 

and we should be careful not to imply that we're saying the latter because we're angry at the former. The latter is a real actual crime and implying Bioware is like that isn't going to lead into any sort of a productive discussion.

[Raiellyn]

I agree with Invictos that there's a difference between

 

* treating fictional characters inequally and

* treating real life employees inequally

 

and we should be careful not to imply that we're saying the latter because we're angry at the former. The latter is a real actual crime and implying Bioware is like that isn't going to lead into any sort of a productive discussion.

 

I think the former would be more aptly put "treating real life customers inequally." It is still far less serious than oppressing employees, but no one here is angry that poor old Jorgen can't get him some man-lovin'. It's about how the LGBT fans themselves are being ignored.

[Samy_Merchi]

Well, be that as it may, I'm pretty sure that not providing same-sex content isn't a crime (otherwise a LOT of companies would be in trouble), whereas treating employees inequally is. I think it's important to remember that Bioware isn't committing any crime here, just doing something we don't personally like.

[Raiellyn]

Well, be that as it may, I'm pretty sure that not providing same-sex content isn't a crime (otherwise a LOT of companies would be in trouble), whereas treating employees inequally is. I think it's important to remember that Bioware isn't committing any crime here, just doing something we don't personally like.

 

Agreed on that. But still, ignoring us as a section of the customer-base is not a non-issue by any means. It may not be a crime, but it is not something we should support. When push come to shove, perhaps contacting an outside organization may be the only way to get progress. As I sad earlier, it is too soon to say.

 

But just as you said, it should not be made into a massive atrocity.

[Suaine]

I agree with Invictos that there's a difference between

 

* treating fictional characters inequally and

* treating real life employees inequally

 

and we should be careful not to imply that we're saying the latter because we're angry at the former. The latter is a real actual crime and implying Bioware is like that isn't going to lead into any sort of a productive discussion.

 

The thing is, I don't believe anyone even at our most angry has ever even implied that.

[Invictos]

Take a step back and look at the nature of the "threat."

 

The threat is that if EA/Bioware continues to fail to communicate and be unsupportive of LGBT issues, that people will attempt to create the impression they are noncommunicative and unsupportive of LGBT issues.

 

It's "Do X (or don't do X) and I'll tell people about it."

 

It's only a threat to someone who's doing something wrong.

 

Ok, this'll be my last post on the subject. Apologies for beating the horse to death. You're saying that a company that has already demonstrated, over a period of years, that they are a gay-friendly enterprise, that such a company only has two months of post-launch goodwill before you start taking steps to tarnish their reputation?

 

People in this very thread have repeatedly mentioned Bioware's history of adding LBGT-friendly storylines to its games. Bioware's reward for being not just receptive, but openly and actively supportive of the gay community in the past is to be slandered (whether explicitly or not) for not immediately jumping to attention in this one instance, when they've got countless concerns on their plate, when they're launching a huge MMO for the first time?

 

I'm afraid when you look at the larger context, the threat is just that -- a threat. The fact that you'd make the threat after so little time says more about you than it does about the target's guilt or innocence. Don't get me wrong; it's natural to get upset, and particularly on the internet there's an almost inevitable elongation of people's perception of time. A month -- or two, as in this case -- can seem like an eternity when your favored MMO has a flaw that you just can't get past.

 

But it's not an eternity with respect to content development, nor even with respect to developer communication, sadly. I've frequented Bioware's forums since about 2001, off and on, and they've always struck me as an enormously friendly and responsive bunch, but I don't expect the same level of communication from the MMO-incarnation of the same company, especially if SWTOR continues to have more than a million subscribers.

[Kioma]

The thing is, I don't believe anyone even at our most angry has ever even implied that.

 

I've not seen anyone saying Bioware's done anything illegal, no.

[theelepeltje]

" WE COULD CARE LESS. "

 

Loud and clear and good to know Bioware.

 

I was loyal to a brand that was supposedly all about equality. Good to know that it's no longer the case.

 

Didn't they give that up in ME2 already? Creating 3 lesbian romance options but no gay one was probably even more insulting than having no same-sex romance at all.

Bioware even treating this as a separate 'feature' is disappointing. As if it somehow requires more work to implement a gay relationship than a straight one.

[Suaine]

Didn't they give that up in ME2 already? Creating 3 lesbian romance options but no gay one was probably even more insulting than having no same-sex romance at all.

Bioware even treating this as a separate 'feature' is disappointing. As if it somehow requires more work to implement a gay relationship than a straight one.

 

Mass Effect is a contentious issue. Some people do not consider the Asari female even though they present as such. In ME2 there were no full gay romances - Liara's could carry over, but she would not join the crew and the less said about Kelly's pseudo-romance the better. We know that there was supposed to be SGR content for Ashley and Kaidan at some point, but we don't know how soon into the development process that was taken out.

 

However, to say that they have given up on inclusiveness is basically denying that things got better. DA:O did alright with SGR and DA2 was, at least for me, the best way to do it and give everyone the maximum amount of choice. And the upcoming Mass Effect 3 will have SGR for all Shepards.

 

I do agree that there is something grating about SGRAs being a "post-launch feature" and that it should have been integrated with OGRAs at launch, but I think they're making up for a mistake and that's good. They're committed now (I hope) and that's what's important.

[Tenebram]

Didn't they give that up in ME2 already? Creating 3 lesbian romance options but no gay one was probably even more insulting than having no same-sex romance at all.

Bioware even treating this as a separate 'feature' is disappointing. As if it somehow requires more work to implement a gay relationship than a straight one.

 

ME3 has at least one gay romance

[GetPloughed]

Same gender romances should be unique. At this point in time, none of the characters I've leveled have any companions even close to being bi. Re writing someone like Corso Riggs to be bi, wouldn't make any sense.

 

BioWare will get more negative flack from making every character bi then they would positive. Hell look at Anders, adding to the male Hawke relationship that he was partners with Karl tells me he's gay, so any relationship with a female Hawke, is just him faking interest in her.

 

I can't take any current squad mate serious as a bi anymore because they've been written has straight from the get go. New companions, can be anything they want.

 

I guess after Mass Effect 3, you'll have a better idea of an answer from BioWare. If they rewrite any of the companions to be bi-able, then you'll know that they have no problems with rewriting and destroying the story of their companions.

[stuffystuffs]

Same gender romances should be unique. At this point in time, none of the characters I've leveled have any companions even close to being bi. Re writing someone like Corso Riggs to be bi, wouldn't make any sense.

 

BioWare will get more negative flack from making every character bi then they would positive. Hell look at Anders, adding to the male Hawke relationship that he was partners with Karl tells me he's gay, so any relationship with a female Hawke, is just him faking interest in her.

 

I can't take any current squad mate serious as a bi anymore because they've been written has straight from the get go. New companions, can be anything they want.

 

They haven't though.

 

1) The PC has been written as 'straight or asexual' because the PC cannot pursue a SGRA.

2) We thus do not know how a companion would react (whether positively or negatively) to a same-gendered PC approaching them b/c the same-gendered PC cannot do this. Therefore, how can you say without a doubt that they are 'straight'?

 

This is different from:

 

1) The PC pursuing a SGRA with a companion.

2) The companion saying 'no thanks, I don't swing that way.'

Edited February 19, 2012 by stuffystuffs

[GetPloughed]

They haven't though.

 

1) The PC has been written as 'straight or asexual' because the PC cannot pursue a SGRA.

2) We thus do not know how a companion would react (whether positively or negatively) to a same-gendered PC approaching them b/c the same-gendered PC cannot do this. Therefore, how can you say without a doubt that they are 'straight'?

 

Because they are written that way initially. Using your logic any and every character from every story ever written can be bisexual. As long as they haven't been hit on by someone of the same gender.

 

IMO BioWare should have implemented gay characters into this game before launch, because as I said already I disagree with them going back and rewriting all current LI possible companions. I'm all for new ones having unique relationships though.