Aidank Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) The "They're different classes everything is different derp" argument gets old, the saps are essentially the same ability and they're used in the same way, except for the resolve. Pretty much every single 8 second mezz in this game gives 800 resolve, except for an operative's sap. The only reason I can think as to why they would've made it 1000, is if they thought that double sapping people is overpowered, but apparently not as assassins have the same move with 800 resolve. Makes no sense. edit: And about the heals, they're stupidly weak and take a quarter of your slowly regenerating energy bar. I'd much prefer an assassin's defensive cooldowns that actually work. Edited February 11, 2012 by Aidank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neamhan Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 The healing is pretty useless unless you spec for it. The only time it's actually of any use at all is when you escape but the game won't let you out of combat. Trying to heal with any enemies around you is a recipe for disaster. You should actually try playing the class before you try to comment on it. I have both a Shadow and an Operative. Perhaps it is you who should try actually playing a class before commenting on it. If you can't find a way to leverage your heals and an operative then the problem is with you, not the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidank Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I have both a Shadow and an Operative. Perhaps it is you who should try actually playing a class before commenting on it. If you can't find a way to leverage your heals and an operative then the problem is with you, not the class. If you actually think healing as an operative is a viable strategy in any situation other than having just dropped combat w/ dots on you or something extremely situational like that, then I'm guessing your operative is around level 12? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neamhan Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Pretty much every single 8 second mezz in this game gives 800 resolve, except for an operative's sap. The only reason I can think as to why they would've made it 1000, is if they thought that double sapping people is overpowered, but apparently not as assassins have the same move with 800 resolve. Makes no sense. Operatives have two 8 second mezzes, one of which doesn't even need to be used from stealth. That's the most likely the reason they put one of them at 1000 resolve, or else it would be way too easy to chain together 15+ seconds of mez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neamhan Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 If you actually think healing as an operative is a viable strategy in any situation other than having just dropped combat w/ dots on you or something extremely situational like that, then I'm guessing your operative is around level 12? You would be wrong. Do you ever play in a team or do you just roam around Ilum solo? Also, what level is your Shadow or Assassin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treplos Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) Operative: Evasion - 100% dodge, 3 seconds, 1m cooldown, removes all hostile effects with Avoidance Training Shield Probe - bubble, 15 seconds, 45s cooldown Healing - usable anytime, all the time, on all damage Shadow: Deflection - 50% dodge, 12 seconds, 2m cooldown Resilience - 100% resistance vs force and tech attacks, 3 seconds (5 if tank specced), 45 second cooldown, also removes all hostile effects You sure you want to give up that anytime healing? Evasion works mostly against auto-attacks. Shield Probe absorbs a 1k-1.5k damage, which is about 1 normal attack. Healing needs around 2s to cast (if speeced) or 2.5s (if not specced), and heals for 1.5k non-crit or 2.5k crit (due to Trauma debuff). In those 2s - 2.5s you will receive more damage than what you can heal. Heal is nice to have around but is it reliable? It is only viable if you run away from the target (then you can use your "recharge" skill instead for a faster job), or if you get the target CC'ed by Flash Bang and you do not have any dots on him and no one on your team breaks the mez, and if the opponent has his CC-breaker on CD. Healing is pretty situational at best, does not heal for that much as a DPS spec, and unreliable to save your arse. Operatives have two 8 second mezzes, one of which doesn't even need to be used from stealth. That's the most likely the reason they put one of them at 1000 resolve, or else it would be way too easy to chain together 15+ seconds of mez. Two 8s mezzes? Care to list them? You surely are not counting Sleep Dart? It is useless for combat LOL. I'm starting to think you do not have an Operative or none that you PVP with. Please list me the CC that your Shadow has and I will list you what CC an Operative has. Edited February 12, 2012 by Treplos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grubfist Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Operatives have two 8 second mezzes, one of which doesn't even need to be used from stealth. That's the most likely the reason they put one of them at 1000 resolve, or else it would be way too easy to chain together 15+ seconds of mez. Shadows have Force Lift. It can be talented in Balance to be instacast. It can be casted in any spec. It's an 8-second mez. My main's a shadow :X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefy Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I want a group CC ability like ops have i would also like to be able to heal myself like you do i would also like your burst damage compared to mine I would also like to wear medium and not light armour I would also like ranged abilities (as crap as they are they can interrupt people capping objectives on voidstar or civil war) I do not have a rolleyes icon big enough for my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrilian Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 maybe because assassins have no burst dps capability zomg classes are different! http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2764877#post2764877 yea lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrandis Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Yeah about the medium armor thing... Combat Technique +150% armor rating. Shadowy Veil: Increases Armor Rating by 15%/30% while Force Technique or Shadow Technique is active. Tier 1 Talent(Available at level 10) in the Infiltration Tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opapanax Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) Two 8s mezzes? Care to list them? You surely are not counting Sleep Dart? It is useless for combat LOL. I'm starting to think you do not have an Operative or none that you PVP with. Please list me the CC that your Shadow has and I will list you what CC an Operative has. Sleep dart useless? Come now man, thats in the rotation for most operatives. Debating your point is cool, but keep it real with yaself. I hope Sleep Dark isn't an 8 second stun it does feel like forever tho. Thats an instant cast right? Does it need to be spec'd into for instant? Sith Assassins can use Force Tornado or whatever its called but you have to spec like 3rd teir of Maddness to get to it maybe. Not sure Edited February 12, 2012 by Opapanax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mohawksinspace Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 The classes are not the same, the saps are not the same. The basis for your entire case here is already dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grubfist Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Yeah about the medium armor thing... Combat Technique +150% armor rating. Shadowy Veil: Increases Armor Rating by 15%/30% while Force Technique or Shadow Technique is active. Tier 1 Talent(Available at level 10) in the Infiltration Tree. Not that it's that relevant, since shadows can't do acceptable damage in combat technique anymore, and that talent is ****** compared to alternatives. That said, armor isn't a very valid point in the first place for a class that relies on stealth and burst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMKSED Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Yeah about the medium armor thing... Combat Technique +150% armor rating. Shadowy Veil: Increases Armor Rating by 15%/30% while Force Technique or Shadow Technique is active. Tier 1 Talent(Available at level 10) in the Infiltration Tree. Cost 100% of our energy/Force to switch techniques now and combat is only good if you're actually spec'd around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grubfist Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Sleep dart useless? Come now man, thats in the rotation for most operatives. Debating your point is cool, but keep it real with yaself. I hope Sleep Dark isn't an 8 second stun it does feel like forever tho. Thats an instant cast right? Does it need to be spec'd into for instant? Sith Assassins can use Force Tornado or whatever its called but you have to spec like 3rd teir of Maddness to get to it maybe. Not sure The madness speccing is only for insta-cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grubfist Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Cost 100% of our energy/Force to switch techniques now and combat is only good if you're actually spec'd around it. No, it costs 100, and Infil shadows have 110. TECHNICALLY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMKSED Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 The madness speccing is only for insta-cast. And it's really only worth getting now if you're going full Balance spec. And lol if anyone wants to compare Balance Shadow to Melee Op/Sco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMKSED Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 No, it costs 100, and Infil shadows have 110. TECHNICALLY. K. Doesn't change the fact that it was nerfed and we can't get 150% instantly like some people think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grubfist Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 K. Doesn't change the fact that it was nerfed and we can't get 150% instantly like some people think. The real problem is the Project thingy being linked to shadow technique now. It took away most of our damage when in combat technique. Which is fair. But cant be used as an argument anymore, definitely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMKSED Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 The real problem is the Project thingy being linked to shadow technique now. It took away most of our damage when in combat technique. Which is fair. But cant be used as an argument anymore, definitely. Hybrid was OP, which it's still better than Infiltration even after the nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treplos Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) Sleep dart useless? Come now man, thats in the rotation for most operatives. Debating your point is cool, but keep it real with yaself. I hope Sleep Dark isn't an 8 second stun it does feel like forever tho. Thats an instant cast right? Does it need to be spec'd into for instant? Sith Assassins can use Force Tornado or whatever its called but you have to spec like 3rd teir of Maddness to get to it maybe. Not sure You do not even know what Sleep Dart is, and yet you are arguing about it? Sleep Dart Instant Energy: 20 Range: 10 m Puts the target to sleep for 60 seconds. Damage will break the effect prematurely. Only usable from stealth and only usable on targets not in combat. Only one target can be incapacitated at a time. Does not affect droids. Note the highlighted parts. Yeah it is useless in Combat, and you do not want to use it on a target that you intend to fight. Why? Because it fills the resolve bar entirely. Which is the whole point of this thread vs Shadow/Sins's "Sap". Edited February 12, 2012 by Treplos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neamhan Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Evasion works mostly against auto-attacks. Shield Probe absorbs a 1k-1.5k damage, which is about 1 normal attack. Healing needs around 2s to cast (if speeced) or 2.5s (if not specced), and heals for 1.5k non-crit or 2.5k crit (due to Trauma debuff). In those 2s - 2.5s you will receive more damage than what you can heal. Heal is nice to have around but is it reliable? It is only viable if you run away from the target (then you can use your "recharge" skill instead for a faster job), or if you get the target CC'ed by Flash Bang and you do not have any dots on him and no one on your team breaks the mez, and if the opponent has his CC-breaker on CD. Healing is pretty situational at best, does not heal for that much as a DPS spec, and unreliable to save your arse. Then which cooldown is it you want from Shadows? Not Deflection since that's the same as Evasion only it's 50% instead of 100%, though it lasts longer. You can scoff at the bubble but it's something a Shadow doesn't even have. Resilience then? It lasts 3 seconds unless you're tank specced. So what is it you actually want? Two 8s mezzes? Care to list them? You surely are not counting Sleep Dart? It is useless for combat LOL. I'm starting to think you do not have an Operative or none that you PVP with. Dude, Sleep Dart IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE THREAD! Do you even know what you're arguing about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neamhan Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Shadows have Force Lift. It can be talented in Balance to be instacast. It can be casted in any spec. It's an 8-second mez. My main's a shadow :X True. But the talent that makes it AoE doesn't work in PvP, and if you spec high enough to get instant Force Lift you lose a lot of spike damage from Clairvoyant Strike. An Operative doesn't have to sacrifice spike damage that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neamhan Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Yeah about the medium armor thing... Combat Technique +150% armor rating. Shadowy Veil: Increases Armor Rating by 15%/30% while Force Technique or Shadow Technique is active. Tier 1 Talent(Available at level 10) in the Infiltration Tree. You aren't doing big damage in Combat Technique, which you can no longer swap to on the fly. Shadowy Veil still doesn't bring light armor up to medium armor level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainInsano Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 There's no rhyme or reason for the resolve bar difference between Assassin and Operative saps. People are arguing about why differences in the classes make one sap filling the resolve bar ok but not the other meanwhile the PvP team probably just forgot about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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