Has Bioware already lost the PvP base?

[Pulpp]

Wow..that OP was way too long to read. To answer the subject though - yes. They had 2 months tops to pull em in. Fission Mailed.

[nschlan]

Well, having played probably hundreds of games and around 15 MMOs, I KNOW that most games fail to meet the hype.

 

And, I played GW1 for years, but I know many many people who disliked it, even if it had the most balanced PvP ever with tons of maps, titles to unlock and show boat, ladder, tournaments for real cash, tons of skills and builds, lots of variety, but NOT ENOUGH for the 'hardcore' PvP players.

 

For example, EVERYONE has same gear, only graphical differences. I personnally dislike, that, in a pseudo MMORPG, I am just a clone of everyone else playing same race / class. So you PvE for what reason ? To get a spiked helm that has same stats my PvP leather helm has ? Lame. But PvP will be balanced, granted. Ohh wait it won't. They still patch GW1 because there's ALWAYS a FOTM build in those games. You'll still read rage posts on forums, still will have to fight through exploits and bugs. Same ole same ole.

 

GW2 is not like GW1 in ANY WAY. Terrible comparison. And actually, the only PvPers still there ARE the hardcore PvPers because of the skill it takes (interrupting a 1/4 second cast is a lot harder than a 2.5 second one for example). You like gear differences? Why? So you can hide behind it? Graphic differences only? At certain levels of gear grind PvP that's how it is too.

Edited February 9, 2012 by nschlan

[Masanis]

As a high rated Gladiator player from WoW, I must say that my partner who I've rolled with on this game has already semi-quit.

 

I'm still here only because of RL mates and the fact that my sub is active until 22.04.

 

 

edit

 

The guy above me who mentioned Burning Crusade.. that was the best game ( or well, xpack ) I have ever played, outside of old DOS/Win95 platformers. I honestly don't think anything can or will ever be compareable to the progression and the fun that TBC offered. Ranging from Kara, to Gruul; from SSC to MH; from BT to Sunwell, from S1 to S4, I don't remember a single time I was actually bored during TBC.

 

I agree with you on this. I actually quit right before TBC, but came back when I saw how awesome it was. The raiding content was incredible and actually got better as you moved along (Kael'thas was fun as hell the first time!)

 

Wrath of the Lich King was okay, but TBC was definitely one of the best expansions in a game ever.

[Faat]

 

I won't touch your last point...lol.

 

Why won't you ?

 

Do people seriously think it's cool to SPACEBAR every convos and rush to the endgame and then cry they have nothing else to do ? To gain BM gear before everyone else then state the game offers no competition ?

 

And you think Bioware should care about these people ? 'Wait, let's introduce more levels and more gear to grind, more warzones and fix world PvP for those no lifers, so they keep paying subs'. 'Oh nevermind, they're 5% of our paying customers, are all mad at us already, and will keep posting how bad the game is anyway, less trouble and negative publicity if they leave already.'

[Kryptorchid]

Why won't you ?

 

Do people seriously think it's cool to SPACEBAR every convos and rush to the endgame and then cry they have nothing else to do ? To gain BM gear before everyone else then state the game offers no competition ?

 

And you think Bioware should care about these people ? 'Wait, let's introduce more levels and more gear to grind, more warzones and fix world PvP for those no lifers, so they keep paying subs'. 'Oh nevermind, they're 5% of our paying customers, are all mad at us already, and will keep posting how bad the game is anyway, less trouble and negative publicity if they leave already.'

Just to let you know, not all hardcore PvPers rush to end-game to get an advantage. Case in point? ME!

 

I am a hardcore PvPer, it is why I play most games. I do enjoy some aspects of PvE, but I do not really focus on them. in TOR, I literally have ZERO level 50 characters. My highest level is a level 47 Vanguard with Valor Rank 47. <---- That is hardcore. When I eventually ding 50, I will probably just play an alt, because I really have no interest in what is currently offered in end-game PvP.

[Faat]

GW2 is not like GW1 in ANY WAY. Terrible comparison. And actually, the only PvPers still there ARE the hardcore PvPers because of the skill it takes (interrupting a 1/4 second cast is a lot harder than a 2.5 second one for example). You like gear differences? Why? So you can hide behind it? Graphic differences only? At certain levels of gear grind PvP that's how it is too.

 

Are you already a GW2 fanboi ?

 

Yes, I like gear differences in my MMOs, because I like character customisation. In many games gear is different yet not game-breakingly different. For example, they could get rid of expertise and r50, r60 gear would still give an edge over r40, but raid gear of equivalent level should be a good alternative to pvP, giving similar yet different stats and bonuses, making it important to both raid AND PvP to obtain the best gear combinations.

 

I know pvPers don't want to PvE ever. Then perhaps you play the wrong type of games. Just sayin'

[golfwang]

Why won't you ?

 

Do people seriously think it's cool to SPACEBAR every convos and rush to the endgame and then cry they have nothing else to do ? To gain BM gear before everyone else then state the game offers no competition ?

 

And you think Bioware should care about these people ? 'Wait, let's introduce more levels and more gear to grind, more warzones and fix world PvP for those no lifers, so they keep paying subs'. 'Oh nevermind, they're 5% of our paying customers, are all mad at us already, and will keep posting how bad the game is anyway, less trouble and negative publicity if they leave already.'

 

Its pretty much stereotypical attacks on people who enjoy MMOs.

 

Reality is there is a small fraction of quest dialogue that is interesting and unique to a given class. I watched everything on my first playthrough. I skipped everything but class dialogue on my alt.

 

Bioware should care about every potential customer, it's only good business

 

If there were compelling systems in place that created fun, dynamic, non-repetitive pvp for pvp players, you wouldn't be seeing posts like mine.

 

The question is, should those players care about the game Bioware has put out? And is there anything Bioware can do to rectify the situation and retain the players I'm so sure they're going to lose? It's far more than a lack of content fyi, but thats a big problem too. Perhaps you should reread my OP.

 

People disapointed with PvP simply "leaving the game" is only going to hurt it in the longrun. What you should want is a thriving community months from now, no matter what kind of content they prefer.

Edited February 9, 2012 by golfwang

[nschlan]

Are you already a GW2 fanboi ?

 

Yes, I like gear differences in my MMOs, because I like character customisation. In many games gear is different yet not game-breakingly different. For example, they could get rid of expertise and r50, r60 gear would still give an edge over r40, but raid gear of equivalent level should be a good alternative to pvP, giving similar yet different stats and bonuses, making it important to both raid AND PvP to obtain the best gear combinations.

 

I know pvPers don't want to PvE ever. Then perhaps you play the wrong type of games. Just sayin'

That's not gear differences, that's visual differences, which is exactly what your issue with GW1 was. You still get only 2 options visually: PvE gear or PvP gear. Sorry. If the stats are on par, it's not a real difference.

 

I don't get what you mean about me being a GW2 fanboi, especially the already part (the game is in beta you know). Perhaps that's your way of saying you have nothing left to say and are resorting to a feeble attempt at insulting me?

Edited February 9, 2012 by nschlan

[Kiphere]

I personally have patience.

 

I'm not impressed with the launch support of PVP but I feel like they are paying attention to it and we'll see some PVP lovin soon. I'm gonna hold onto that hope and wait it out for at least 2 major patches. 1.2 is supposed to give us a little bone with ranking and a new WZ so I'll see how that pans out. if 1.3 is still lacking in any solid PVP content or changes that make the PVP more than just a RNG grind fest I'll probably move on after I've had my fun with leveling various classes and playing around with the legacy system.

[Faat]

Its pretty much stereotypical attacks on people who enjoy MMOs.

 

Reality is there is a small fraction of quest dialogue that is interesting and unique to a given class.

 

Bioware should care about every potential customer, it's only good business

 

If there were compelling systems in place that created fun, dynamic, non-repetitive pvp for pvp players, you wouldn't be seeing posts like mine.

 

The question is, should those players care about the game Bioware has put out? And is there anything Bioware can do to rectify the situation? It's far more than a lack of content.

 

People disapointed with PvP simply "leaving the game" is only going to hurt it in the longrun. What you should want is a thriving community months from now, no matter what kind of content they prefer.

 

I agree mostly, I surely wish they'd fix many PvP issues, more warzones, more world PvP objectives, 4v4 tournaments, 8v8 tournaments, guild vs guild huttball, whatever that would bring competition. But, what about the rest of the game ? The PvE is well done. They only need to add content for end game. And believe me, they're probably going to release a huge and free expansion in the next year, like they did with WAR (same bunch of Devs and publisher). There's a lot of similarity between SWTOR and WAR, but SWTOR launch has been much better, and the game much more stable and enjoyable. They're working on something, but they won't tell anything yet. Book it.

 

Like somebody else said, be patient, or, unsub then come back when new stuff comes out.

[BriGuyRedFive]

The PVP in this game sucks. Not only am I totally sick of huttball, I'm now not even getting credit for warzone wins for completing my daily quest.

 

This game needed 6 more months of development. But greed and licensing issues are more important than a quality product.

[icjaker]

I didn't read your entire thread but I'm sure it's a long roundabout way to bash this game while asking your question.

 

 

The answer is no. There are many active PVPers and my server is constantly popping in Ilum and warzones on both factions.

 

 

 

 

What you see(my guess is you included) is the whiners. The crybabies that didn't get the game they imagined so they run to the forums to cry to try and dissuade the people that do like it from playing out of some bitter feeling of letdown of their imagination of the "perfect pvp game"

 

I'm not dissuading any PvE gamers from this game. In fact its the best PvE MMO available.

 

The PvP sucks, however,

[Brat]

I've always enjoyed watching the hardcore players that rushed through levels to be the first at end game start complaining about how the game sucks because they're bored while everyone else is still trying to catch up.

 

Why don't you guys wait a bit till more people hit 50 (late starters like myself) and get geared up before you dismiss open world PvP. I think a large part of the issue stems from the current imbalance of sides. This should eventually fix itself when players begin to reroll for more of a challenge. Then you end up with the hardcore PvP players vs the outnumbering casual players and everyone has fun.

[Faat]

That's not gear differences, that's visual differences, which is exactly what your issue with GW1 was. You still get only 2 options visually: PvE gear or PvP gear. Sorry. If the stats are on par, it's not a real difference.

 

I don't get what you mean about me being a GW2 fanboi, especially the already part (the game is in beta you know). Perhaps that's your way of saying you have nothing left to say and are resorting to a feeble attempt at insulting me?

 

I'm telling you why I dislike GW2 even if I haven't played it.

 

You asked me why I think it will disapoint a lot of people, that hype never meets expectations. You tell me 'how do you know...' I thought you were a fanboi. Sorry for being rude, but I think it's stupid that people expect GW2 to be anything less than religiously awesome. It will have pros and cons, like other games, and you'll read plenty of whining on forums, like for all the other games, after release. Devs can't please everyone, all the time. When they do try that, they fail on many aspects.

[ErisktheRed]

Its pretty much stereotypical attacks on people who enjoy MMOs.

Reality is there is a small fraction of quest dialogue that is interesting and unique to a given class. I watched everything on my first playthrough. I skipped everything but class dialogue on my alt.

 

Bioware should care about every potential customer, it's only good business

 

If there were compelling systems in place that created fun, dynamic, non-repetitive pvp for pvp players, you wouldn't be seeing posts like mine.

 

The question is, should those players care about the game Bioware has put out? And is there anything Bioware can do to rectify the situation and retain the players I'm so sure they're going to lose? It's far more than a lack of content fyi, but thats a big problem too. Perhaps you should reread my OP.

 

People disapointed with PvP simply "leaving the game" is only going to hurt it in the longrun. What you should want is a thriving community months from now, no matter what kind of content they prefer.

 

The bold is your OPINION... and of course mult play throughs will garner more spacebars for repeat quests that all classes do. I agree with everything else you said

 

To what the other guy said, 5% of pop rushing to end game... perhaps so... but thats NOT the % of ppl complaining or think PvP has big issues... there's way more than 5% who may quit not just over PvP... and out of 7 million subs? that's... A LOT.

 

Of course BW can do things, but clearly they take their time to "get right". IMO - they focused so much on the class story, VOs, PvE quests, the "single player MMO" experience... (and all the best I've played from any MMO (not counting Heroic/FPs...) they totally neglected end-game and PvP, and what we have now seems imo like placeholders until they put in better system/more content. I just don't think the game was ready in these aspects and EA pushed for launch over Q4/holidays.

[golfwang]

I've always enjoyed watching the hardcore players that rushed through levels to be the first at end game start complaining about how the game sucks because they're bored while everyone else is still trying to catch up.

 

Why don't you guys wait a bit till more people hit 50 (late starters like myself) and get geared up before you dismiss open world PvP. I think a large part of the issue stems from the current imbalance of sides. This should eventually fix itself when players begin to reroll for more of a challenge. Then you end up with the hardcore PvP players vs the outnumbering casual players and everyone has fun.

 

It's not hard to level quickly in this game. This isn't WoW circa 2004, the leveling curve is way more forgiving.

 

There's quite a bit that waiting for more 50s won't fix; it's certainly not guaranteed to even out faction balance. The problems with open world PvP have little to do with the number of 50s and more to do with:

 

-Sharding/Instancing on planets, making every single one feel empty and splintering the opposite factions.

 

-Poor quest hub design. Both factions have to go out of their way to run into the other.

 

-Flashpoints all located within fleets instead of the open world.

 

-A poor, poor engine not suited to large scale pvp.

 

More 50s and more content won't fix any of that. You can band-aid it...maybe.

[nschlan]

I'm telling you why I dislike GW2 even if I haven't played it.

 

You asked me why I think it will disapoint a lot of people, that hype never meets expectations. You tell me 'how do you know...' I thought you were a fanboi. Sorry for being rude, but I think it's stupid that people expect GW2 to be anything less than religiously awesome. It will have pros and cons, like other games, and you'll read plenty of whining on forums, like for all the other games, after release. Devs can't please everyone, all the time. When they do try that, they fail on many aspects.

 

Your argument was flawed because you were basing it off of GW1 and WoW style games that have been hyped as WoW killers. GW2 is none of those things. Never did I say it would please everyone. It has content to appeal to all types of gamers but nothing in the world can please absolutely everyone. And like I said, you talk about gear and such but then ignore the points I made about that in my post. Dismissing a game out of hand because it's hyped is a little ridiculous. If you have real, rational reasons then please state them

Edited February 9, 2012 by nschlan

[SlimsPicken]

The OP expresses many of my own concerns. I want very much for this game to be a success, but the window of opportunity is quite short, and patience of paying customers is quite thin in today's world.

 

I struggled in the beta process with submitting tons of feedback that fell on deaf ears, and now seeing those very same issues present and accounted for in the live game, I am hearing/seeing massive waves of frustrated players either leaving the game, or coming to the forums to vent... and I dont want to say "I told you so"... I want a healthy, fun, and long lived game...

 

so I am concerned.

[golfwang]

The bold is your OPINION... and of course mult play throughs will garner more spacebars for repeat quests that all classes do. I agree with everything else you said

 

To what the other guy said, 5% of pop rushing to end game... perhaps so... but thats NOT the % of ppl complaining or think PvP has big issues... there's way more than 5% who may quit not just over PvP... and out of 7 million subs? that's... A LOT.

 

Of course BW can do things, but clearly they take their time to "get right". IMO - they focused so much on the class story, VOs, PvE quests, the "single player MMO" experience... (and all the best I've played from any MMO (not counting Heroic/FPs...) they totally neglected end-game and PvP, and what we have now seems imo like placeholders until they put in better system/more content. I just don't think the game was ready in these aspects and EA pushed for launch over Q4/holidays.

 

Fair enough, but I share that sentiment with other players too. Although again I agree, best single player MMO content ever.

 

If what we've seen from them is any indication, the future of pvp in ToR isn't bright. I've certainly lost a lot of faith in them after...well everything so far.

 

I think best case scenario for ToR: Most pvpers unsub now-ish and check out the March patch. They'll probably win a chunk of people on the strength of that but whether or not they stay is still very much up in the air.

 

AAA Competition is coming to the MMO genre at a pace it hasn't really seen before. We'll see how BW fairs when people have alternatives to SWTOR.

[nschlan]

The bold is your OPINION... and of course mult play throughs will garner more spacebars for repeat quests that all classes do. I agree with everything else you said

 

To what the other guy said, 5% of pop rushing to end game... perhaps so... but thats NOT the % of ppl complaining or think PvP has big issues... there's way more than 5% who may quit not just over PvP... and out of 7 million subs? that's... A LOT.

 

Of course BW can do things, but clearly they take their time to "get right". IMO - they focused so much on the class story, VOs, PvE quests, the "single player MMO" experience... (and all the best I've played from any MMO (not counting Heroic/FPs...) they totally neglected end-game and PvP, and what we have now seems imo like placeholders until they put in better system/more content. I just don't think the game was ready in these aspects and EA pushed for launch over Q4/holidays.

 

EA definitely pushed for a Christmas launch. I agree with pretty much everything here and would just like to add that as good as the solo content/stories are, they really could've done better. Some of the stories are disappointing as hell.

[Boshlord]

Honestly warzones in this game are why I play my max level character. Pvp is what I find fun in this game. It does take a different kind of player to be good then in wow. In wow pvp was about who could cc/burst the fastest. In this there is a lot more actual fighting. This game in my opinion has the best pvp since UO but still not better which is sad because that was in the 90s it released

[nschlan]

Honestly warzones in this game are why I play my max level character. Pvp is what I find fun in this game. It does take a different kind of player to be good then in wow. In wow pvp was about who could cc/burst the fastest. In this there is a lot more actual fighting. This game in my opinion has the best pvp since UO but still not better which is sad because that was in the 90s it released

 

This game is exactly like the WoW PvP you described. If you can't burst, heal or CC fast enough, you're ****ed. The only difference is the Guard mechanic (still easy to kill people through) The PvP is a WoW clone.

Edited February 9, 2012 by nschlan

[WLpride]

Truthfully the only pvp-base it ever had was purely hype or purely fanboy based.

 

It was known that is the reality for years and years.

 

this game is WARHAMMER 2.0 to many people but it doesn't deliver PvP as good (imo) as that game by any means.

 

In a way, Ilum is similar to Chaos Waste in that game, you can tell the inspiration I find. But since they didn't build any 'RvR' into this game, it will not hold the same kind of PvP expectancy as that (or other) game.

[Iseldiera]

Thanks to the OP for summarizing the worries and feelings of the silent PvP community.

 

I do not want to limit the scope of the things he said to only SWTOR, but to the MMO industry in the post-WoW era altogether.

 

The success of the model developed by Blizzard with respect to raiding and PvE content is surely a shining beacon to which all developers are drawn. All of them want to get their piece from the PvE MMO market, which, lets face the truth, is many many times bigger than the PvP centric MMO market.

 

The gear centric, instanced, repetitive PvP system, which lacks any penalties for losing, and which has absolutely no effect on the world of the player in a physical / interactive way, will continue to dissapoint, however it will continue to be utilized, while the developers keep trying to import the concept of WoW and tweak it with their "new great idea."

 

Looking at the video on the main page, which shows what they plan to do with pvp, gives us a perfect example of what is going on.

 

The developer is proudly announcing that they are bringing in more raids and more warzones. Of course, they will be bringing more tiers of gear.

 

The very fact that a MMO developer is proud to announce these, while the community is SCREAMING AT THE TOP OF ITS LUNGS about the current problems with PvP, is an answer to the OP's question: Bioware already lost the PvP base.

 

As an avid fan starting from the unforgettable Baldur's Gate experience, I am sad, I am dissapointed.

 

I did the unthinkable, and stopped logging on SWTOR yesterday, and I reopened my DaoC account.

 

The moment I logged on, I was bombarded with the messages: "Forces of Albion have taken X, Forces of Midgard have taken Y." Doing a /who hibernia resulted in 772. Meanwhile, at 4:30 pm on bondar crystal server, it was Alderaan:1.

 

Why have I delayed this for so long, I dont know.

 

But boy, it feels good to be home once again.

[Tyrogon]

im waiting for archeage